Dumpshock Forums > Adepts and Initiation

The Question

Apr 29 2005, 12:29 PM

Okay, I posted this observation in the Magicians Way thread, but it seemed to get a little lost so I'll repost it here. Looking at the table posted by hahnsoo (which is below if you hadn't noticed) we can see the various costs for Initiation...

CODE

Initiate Grade 1 2 3 4 5
Solo, No Ordeal 18 21 24 27 30
Solo, Ordeal 15 17 20 22 25
Group, No Ordeal 12 14 16 18 20
Group, Ordeal 9 10 12 13 15

Now, seeing as buying a Power Point on its own costs 20 Good Karma, how the heck do these numbers balance out? A self-initiated Adept can reach third-grade Initiatory level before the costs actually surpass what he would be paying just for the Power Point. So he's basically getting a Metamagic plus increases to Astral abilities if he's taken those powers for free.

Even at the worst possible Karma cost, our Adept is paying effectively -2 Karma for his Power Point, and just one more at his second level for a Metamagic. And when we start factoring in groups, things just go crazy. He can gain FOUR initiatory grades for the same price as two Power Points (give or take 4 Karma).

Surely this is a little imblancing? What benefits are there in just taking a Power Point when you get one far cheaper by initiating AND get added powers as well. Mages still have to buy their spells, why do Adepts get things for free?

Demosthenes

Apr 29 2005, 12:38 PM

Because the 'Buy additional power points' rules otherwise leave adepts gimped compared to most other character types?

Or perhaps (more likely), because the option to buy additional power points is there to allow adepts to advance in power even if the GM doesn't have or use the initiation rules.

Also note that the 'buy more power points' rule is not that nice to adepts - it gives them more power points, and hence more versatility, but it doesn't raise their magic attribute: which means that while they may have 9 pp worth of powers (after spending 60 karma), they can still only use 6pp worth at a time...
(I could be misremembering, however...)

Fortune

Apr 29 2005, 12:42 PM

The rules for purchasing a Power Point are presented in the core book, and are technically for use in games where Initiation is not available (since Initiation is not included in the core book). In general, if Initiation is included in the game, then the Power Point rules are not used. Of course, some do people incorporate both.

If both are used, then it is worth the Adept's while to Initiate for a couple of Grades, and then just puchase Power Points for 20 Karma.

The Question

Apr 29 2005, 12:54 PM

QUOTE (Fortune)

The rules for purchasing a Power Point are presented in the core book, and are technically for use in games where Initiation is not available (since Initiation is not included in the core book). In general, if Initiation is included in the game, then the Power Point rules are not used. Of course, some do people incorporate both.

If both are used, then it is worth the Adept's while to Initiate for a couple of Grades, and then just puchase Power Points for 20 Karma.

Unless they are in a group, in which case it is never preferrable.

That said, I had forgotten that MitS came out after BBB, my bad! I suppose that makes sense then, as the two options quite simply don't corrolate together at all. A note in MitS saying that Adept initiation supercedes the original rule would have been handy though...

Fortune

Apr 29 2005, 01:00 PM

For what it's worth, this is what the FAQ has to say on the subject ...

QUOTE (Shadowrun FAQ)

Question: SR3 allows adepts to purchase additional power points at a cost of 20 Good Karma points each. Does this mean that an adept can have more power points than his Magic attribute? Or does the purchased power point increase the adept's Magic? Can purchased power points be lost due to Magic loss? What happens if the adept's Magic is reduced to 0, but he still has powers left?

Response: Adepts who purchase power points with Karma do not get an extra Magic point with that power point. You only get that with initiation.

The power point for Karma rule was specifically included for players who do not use the advanced magic (initiation) rules. It is recommended that this rule be ignored if the initation rules in Magic in the Shadows are also being used. Any extra power points purchased with Karma do not count against the character's limit of (Magic attribute) number of power points.

When an adept loses Magic, he chooses which powers are lost; powers bought with Karma can be chosen instead of others. If an adept's Magic reaches 0, the adept loses all magical ability, period.

Demosthenes

Apr 29 2005, 01:02 PM

Actually, even if the Adept is in a group, it becomes preferable to buy the power points after the 5th Grade of initiation or so (after 5 initiations, you might have trouble getting your GM to let you go for another *fill-in-the-blank* ordeal...)...

Even with the Ordeal, once you get past the 6th or 7th initiation, that flat 20 karma/pp starts to look sweet.

cykotek

Apr 29 2005, 01:03 PM

The other disadvantage to not initiating and instead buying power points is the maximum level of powers you can have is equal to your magic rating. If you don't raise your magic somehow, then no powers over level 6. So no more than 6 stealth dice, 6 levels of Freefall, whatever the power in question might be.

The Question

Apr 29 2005, 01:08 PM

Thanks for the clarification Fortune!

Demosthenes

Apr 29 2005, 01:09 PM

I think we touched on that already...

QUOTE (Me)

Also note that the 'buy more power points' rule is not that nice to adepts - it gives them more power points, and hence more versatility, but it doesn't raise their magic attribute: which means that while they may have 9 pp worth of powers (after spending 60 karma), they can still only use 6pp worth at a time...

Edward

Apr 29 2005, 01:20 PM

If both methods are available even with both a group and an ordeal purchasing power points alone becomes viable by about grade 9, buy this stage your magic rating could be as high as 15 so further increases tend to be academic and your probably out of adept meta magic’s to learn

Edward

The Question

Apr 29 2005, 01:57 PM

Is SOTA:2064 worth picking up just for the Adept metamagics or are their some equally good fan made ones out there?

cykotek

Apr 29 2005, 03:09 PM

QUOTE (Demosthenes)

I think we touched on that already...

The phrasing you used did not, to me, say the same thing I did. If we're repeating each other, it's not like we're really wasting anything but electrons anyway.

hahnsoo

Apr 29 2005, 04:49 PM

QUOTE (The Question)

Is SOTA:2064 worth picking up just for the Adept metamagics or are their some equally good fan made ones out there?

I think SOTA:2064 is worth picking up in general, as the flavor text tells you a ton of information of what happens during the year 2063 (along with a list of Or'zet slang and commonly-used words). Oh, and they have cigarette rockets... nummy. Still, if finding out the adept metamagics is your only goal, I'd just do a search on these boards... lots of rants about the adept powers here.

The Question

Apr 29 2005, 05:29 PM

QUOTE (hahnsoo)

QUOTE (The Question @ Apr 29 2005, 08:57 AM)

Is SOTA:2064 worth picking up just for the Adept metamagics or are their some equally good fan made ones out there?

I think SOTA:2064 is worth picking up in general, as the flavor text tells you a ton of information of what happens during the year 2063 (along with a list of Or'zet slang and commonly-used words). Oh, and they have cigarette rockets... nummy. Still, if finding out the adept metamagics is your only goal, I'd just do a search on these boards... lots of rants about the adept powers here.

Well, normally set my games in the 2050's, and cigareete rockets don't really float my boat...

Fortune

Apr 29 2005, 05:33 PM

It also has half-decent info on the police, and covert (government) agencies.

The Question

Apr 29 2005, 05:52 PM

I'll see if I can get it cheap on eBay then, always thought it would be fun to have some Runners tangle with the NSA!

Cynic project

Apr 29 2005, 08:15 PM

SOTA 64is really good for adepts. It lets them do all sort of crazy things, and has a few really good metamagics. I myself am playing adept who would not have been possable not using 64, not so much as is starting out, but what he will later do.