I'm abit in doubt on how this works.

You pay Essence for cyberware. Making it, in effect and description, part of yourself. More than just metal bits.

But this leads to questions.

A single cyberspur does STR(M). A pair deals STR*1,5(M). Regardless of whether the user is ambidextrous.

If you are ambidextrous you take your skill and multiply the number of dice by 1,5.

Cyber-implants and shock gloves are both on the list of secondary weapons in the CC. But fists are not.

A Morning Star, +2 Reach STR+2(M), is mentioned as a Primary weapon, using the WHP skill. A normal Whip is on the secondary list, opening up the interesting combo of Morning Star in one hand and a Whip in the other, for single skill goodness.

All this speculation rests on the assumption the Adept has atleast the 6 point ambidexterity, to avoid buying an off-hand skill.

Questions:

1. If the Adept buys Killing Hands at Serious or Deadly, will his cyberspurs deal more damage? - They are paid for with Essence.

2. Adept fights unarmed, but is ambidextrous, does he get 1,5 times his unarmed combat skill?

3. You can use all sorts of flailing weapons as primary hand, and some in the secondary hand. Would you allow the Monowire Whip?

4. Close Combat, from the MA styles in CC, allows the Adept to avoid the opponents reach bonus, at a -1 to Power. How do you feel MA impact your game? - We have not used it before.

1. No

2. No

3. Yes

4. They work fine for me. I wish Maneuvers were included for all melee skills.

Why should they? You can't hit someone with more Strength than you possess no matter how many limbs you use.

And if you look more closely, only the primary weapon's Damage Code is used, not Damage Code * 1.5 (CC, p.96).

True, but SR3 Specifically says that Cyber-Implant weapons only get a bonus to power from using two, as well.

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but somehow having two sets of spurs instead of 1 will let you rip up an armored drone that you can't penetrate with one spur. It's only really nonsensical when combined with CC's ambidexterity rules, however.

The Ambidexterity rules do not apply when using two Cyber-Implant Weapons. You can use one as a secondary weapon, but not as a primary, so you do not get the *1.5 skill dice for using two of them. The increased power is for (as far as I know) being able to use both of hands to slash/peirce/whatever at once, icreasing your chance of doing damage if you're actually able to land some blows on the other guy, the increase in power doesn't come from hitting harder, just being able to hit in two places at once (or something, weak rationalization, but it works out well enough)

Canon Companion: Page 96, first paragraph:

Any weapon listed under primary or secondary may be used as a primary weapon.

You can't use primaries as secondaries, but you can use secondaries as primaries.

I'd just like to see a cite to the rules in CC, or post-CC, that allow you to increase power by 1.5.

I missed that.

Well, in that case screw it all. *1.5 skill for the ambidexterous then, no power boost.

This is the answer I got from Rob when I asked about this ...

So with the example of my amped up troll, str 20, spur spec 10, he would inflict base 30M, w/ 15 dice?

Thats Why Ambidextrous Spur Adepts are sick. Just remember to stir well with focus.......

Scary thought. Good thing he's 'retired' to playing urban brawl. That sounds way too strong though.

{EDIT} Copied and pasted the wrong text. How embarassing.

I 'got it clarified' a couple of years ago in response to a request/debate here on Dumpshock.

I think the rules are quite clear. Nothing in the C.C. wording supercedes any rule in the SR3 book concerning the use of cyber-implant weaponry in melee. The Ambidexterity Edge rules are an addition to the normal rules, not a replacement. Since there are no restrictions in the rules for any weapon other than their classification as primary or secondary (or not applicable), the rules of the Edge apply across the board to all armed combat weapons in melee, including implanted ones.

[edit] You edited, but I'll let my post stand as is. [/edit]

Good for you.

At this point my only concern is that someone tried to verbally kick my in the nuts for no reason, and the last time it happened I had posted deleted, which is bullshit.

Yes?

Hate is not implicitly rude. Hate burns too hot to be rude.

I'm doubt I'm the only one here who'd define bitching at everyone for not immediately leaping to your defense and helping you contradict someone who disagrees with you as rude.

My hate goes to the pattern of offenses, first of all.

Second, it applies to every instance in which it's happened to anyone, and is in fact why I am glad the Lounge is a thing of the past.

Good for you for having an opinion though. Because that's all I did was give my opinion, and I feel no reason to justify it to you or anyone.

Now then, I got the damn cite. My question answered, I'm done. Goodbye.

Not very happy tonight Smiley?

Have an opinion on ambidexterity by any chance?

The only problem that I have with the Ambidexterity edge is that, game mechanics-wise, it makes no sense to ever take an off-hand weapons skill instead. Why pay the same 6 points, to have ambidexterity with only one skill, plus have to improve two skills instead of one? I think off-hand weapon skill should be something like a maneuver (similar to martial arts maneuvers) or an Edge, to make it an actual useful option.

What bugs me about ambidexterity is that, melee wise, there's no real benefit to the 8 point over the 6 point. My melee adept has it, but only(!) because I had roleplay reasons for wanting worse flaws. Short of house ruling it, there's no canon benefit to being perfectly ambidextrous compared to "really good with off hand" at the 6 point. You'd think that someone who could operate perfectly with either hand in the lead would have some edge over someone who has a marked advantage with one hand, wouldn't you?

In the CC, page 96, in the table showing the weapons you are allowed to dualwield with Ambidexterity. - Shock Glove is mentioned, as a secondary weapon.

Which to me means the FAQ has again made a blatant error.

And it also means that the unarmed adept, with ambidexterity, should be getting his 1,5 times skill. - Compared to the dual spur scenario we just covered, this is in no way overpowering.

I think the idea was that the shock glove could be secondary with a normal held weapon, but you couldn't duel weild hand to hand weapons. The idea there being that normal weapons can be duel weilded (more dice) or two handed (more power and reach) while hand to hand got manuevers (more options). They didn't want to give the advantages of two of those to one weapon. And let's face it, dual shock gloves with some decent manuevers (close combat comes to mind) is really nasty.

JaronK

Its also very clearly stated that all secondary weapons can be used in pairs. Its even referred to, as a quote, in this thread.

2 x Shock Glove + Ambidexterity = Unarmedx1,5

Remember you only get to land 1 shock, the second weapon doesn't get an effect. But you do get the advantage of up to 16 shocks instead of 8, before recharging.

But, since it's also clear that no gloves + ambi = same as no gloves without ambi, this doesn't actually make any sense and leads to odd contradictions.

JaronK

I wouldn't say two spurs is totally better than unarmed. For one thing, it uses up cyberware. For another, it's hard to get manuevers with them, and those things are quite useful.

As to the whip... it's expensive, hard to find, can whip you in the face and kill you, and an opponent with close combat will be able to take you out easy enough. It's a good weapon for someone with low strength, sure, but it has an appropriate cost and availability to match.

JaronK

I rememeber the example in the SR3 for the 2 SPur Strx1.5 thing had to do with some guy named Logan(wonder what they were thinking ), and basically told that 2 Spurs with a Str 6, had his spurs deal 9M, but rolled one time, with the normal skill dice+ combat pool. And with the Cannon Companion stuff, I can see how it can confuse people reading one thing, then another update, then errata...


And yeah, the whip is hard to get...even in our games where we tend to ignore starting availability(to a point, no nuclear submarines or citymasters), no one takes it. As said, it's got it's good points but after we watched the last wielder take his own forearm off with it in a botched roll...well, for a low Str character a polearm still works very well too, is easier to get, cheaper, and safer. Sure you sacrifice some things, but it's nice. Harder to conceal however(another good thing about the whip.)

The monowhip is a good choice for low strength shapeshifters if they are willing to put in the effort to get very high ettiquite.