Screw them both, I like the freaky ones. Paths of the wheel, Obeyifa, those ancestor guys, wujen, loa, etc. are the ones I consider.

I agree; the only other time I played one he was a Hougan Conjurer and I really enjoyed him. I'm currently playing a Buttefly Shaman Conjurer, and I suspect that he's going to be a lot of fun, too. Hermetic Conjurers just seem to be a bit too dry for my tastes, even though I prefer Hermetics in general to the other traditions. Elementals just lack style, especially since some of their best uses are of no use to the Conjurer.

I'm probably crazy to even suggest this here, but I personally would be quite willing to play an aspected conjurer if only they could astrally project. Spirits and elementals are all about the astral plane, yet a character who's completely focused on working with them can't join them out there... it's frustrating.

That would definitely be a step in the right direction for making them a bit more balanced all around compared to Sorcerers.

But then again, Astral Projection and Perception is a common power for all Awakened characters in our games. Adepts tend to already get shortchanged in astral combat while projecting (since most of their powers have been deemed Physical by us, not to mention that they tend to be more physically oriented anyway; having their Mental Attributes transformed into Physical Attributes tends to be a bigger hit on them than other magician types in general), so banning them from it is just silly in my opinion. I also never quite understood why only full magicians could project. A lot of people today claim to be able to do so, and they're hardly full magicians after the Awakening. So why a groggy would be hampered by it is just beyond me.

(And yes, we also have a house rule where everyone gets exactly the same amount of Spell Points during character creation, too. So no, Aspected Magicians don't get 10 points more than the Full Magician. Which, apparently, is their "reward" for not being able to project, even though their reward is already the fact that they cost 5 BP/one Priority less than a Full Magician, but I won't go ranting on about that just yet.)

Making Magical Guard available to most spirits and allowing Ally Spirits to obtain spells (assuming the Conjurer creates one and takes the Sorcery skill to give it to it) is a more than suitable fix for me. We've been using the latter for a while, but the former is a nice addition and gives Conjurers an option to fight off Sorcery without having to fork out an ungodly amount of Karma on an Ally Spirit.

Dr Funkenstein:

If you don't like the stat balance, or the way magic works, or the dozen other things that you've "fixed" why do you bother to even play the system?

I'm not saying you don't have a reason, but if it's so broken what's the joy you get out of it?

I enjoy the setting and flavor of the game primarily, and the rules aren't bad in general. They just have some very noticable and significant flaws in my opinion. TNs of 6 and 7 being identical, sillyness invoked simply because of ill-conceived "game balance" issues, and conflicting rules are just a few examples. I especially like the abstract nature of the system, and how it allows for creative and interesting interpretations to allow a wide variety of concepts.

Just because I have issues with certain aspects of the game, that doesn't mean I find it reprehensible. In fact, in general, I find Shadowrun's magic system one of the best ones in any game system, with only Ars Magica and Mage being comparable. And that's saying something since magic is only a part of what makes Shadowrun Shadowrun, while it's the end-all be-all of the other two games.

You may be so shallow and small-minded as to think that just because someone doesn't like every little aspect of something they must obviously loathe it with a seething passion, but I'm not. At least I don't like to think of myself that way. I just have a low tolerance for a few (<coughs>) things, and my feathers seem to get ruffled when I see people trying to defend (what in my eyes are) obvious flaws with weak if not outright poor arguments. Believe it or not, but I really do try to control myself. Stupid Etiquette 5 (Online 2) skill and Incompetence (Online Etiquette) flaw.

TN 6=7, 12=13, 18=19, etc. isn't a bug, it's a feature.

~J

That's interesting, since Mage and Ars are the last two full RPGs I played before Shadowrun...

Conjurers, mainly hermtic Conjurer can make riggers look slow.Movement.Think of a bike(as the one you pedel) moving at roughly 200 KPH, or a car going at the speed of sound.Maybe a tunnel builder going at miles per-hour speeds, or boats going from here to japan in a weekend....

Why not to play a Hermetic over a Shamanic Conjurer:

Hermetic:
Combat - Engulf for (Force+4)M : Fire or (Force)S : Air/Earth
Combat - Flame Aura, Innate Flame Thrower
NonCombat - PsychoKinesis (Magic Fingers)

Shamanic:
Combat - Accident, Confusion, Fear, Lightning Bolt,
NonCombat - Accident, Confusion, Fear, Search, Guard, Concealment.

I don't see how it's comparable. 10 times as many options as a Shamanic than a Hermetic unless you are purely a Combat level Conjurer. There was a time (before Invoking) that you had a real advantage in combat via numbers, but no longer.

Notice that Movement is NOT a reason, as both sides have that power.

PS. Sorry Doc, Ars Magica magic system blows Shadowrun's away. Not comparable at all, it's far superior. Shadowrun is a very distant 2nd, but Shadowrun is ALOT more fun to play, IMHO.

Sphynx

I didn't say Shadowrun's magic system was superior to Ars Magica, only that with Ars Magica and Mage, Shadowrun's is one of the best.