Ooooh have to get that one for my Mystic Adept hacker...

See my previous post

This sounds more like Magic Fingers, or do you want to permanently warp the bars?

If you can get LOS to the silicon either you or the strippers are doing something completely wrong.

Possible, but Sludge/Demolish Gun would do the same thing. I have not calculated the drain for those spells.

Warning; this post will be almost philosophical in nature. How would you as a GM allow this spell to be catagorized with regard to substance(s) affected?

Would you try and categorize material types based on chemical bonds, say 'metals' (all metals, alloys, intermetallics and metallic glass). Or 'stone', would concrete be included in that? It's basically crushed rock and lime. How about gypsum (drywall), its made out of stuff that appears naturally in rocks. Furthermore, how would you categorize composite materials like wood, concrete, certain polymers, any material of the "fibermesh with filler"-type.

Would you try and categorize with a more strict regime, specific metals, specific alloys (of arbitrary composition), or specific types of stone, composites, liquids etc.

Would you try and categorize simply by name, ie if a material has a name, the spell will only affect the material corresponding to that specific word. The magic in SR is supposedly the same as in ED, and in ED names and symbols carry magic power relating to the true nature of the substance/object.


This spell and similar name based spells presents a headache to me and I'm sure other GMs as well...

See my previous post : it seems that chemistry is completely ignored in regards to the materials being shaped by the spell.
If you learn Shape Water, you cannot shape ice with it.
If you learn Shape Rock, it doesn't matter wether it's granite, slate, marble or whatever, you could shape all these rocks.
But if they'd be reduced to sand by erosion, you would need Shape Sand.

Well, what's the fun of only doing things temporarily!

The more the Corps need to spend, the more we win in the fight for Anarchy!

IMO, Shape [Furniture] would be a completely valid spell (albeit of limited use) and would cover all kinds of furniture, regardless of composition (this includes metal, plastic, wood, leather, pleather, etc). You could not use the same spell against a non-furnishing of the same composition. Likewise, Shape [Bulletproof Glass] would cover all forms of hardened security glass, be it glass, glass-plastic, glass-wire mesh in composition. Note that this spell would not effect ordinary glass, such as that used in bottles, chandeliers, cheap jewelry, and your basic window (or your mother's fine crystal goblets).

Now, you could use Shape [Glass] on various kinds of security glass with varying levels of effectiveness. On bullet proof glass (the grass/plastic layers) it would smoosh all of the glass in the pane around as you saw fit, but would leave thin plastic membranes covering the opening. For some purposes (i.e. shooting) this will be acceptable. For others (breaking and entering) this may be less acceptable (obviously you could cut the plastic, and then shape the glass around it again, but it wouldn't be perfect; there would be odd lines where the cut plastic bent the light unnaturally--but would likely be sufficient for a while).

Shape Silcone. Shape Silicon will get you a job in an AMD cleanroom wearing a bunnysuit.

And to think that I consider myself an author of some small talent.

...

Very small.

When you think about it the legitimate commercial uses of the Shape spells are limitless.

Just Shape[Wood] could be used for a million extremely profitable ventures.

I'd been considering building a character along exactly these lines with a custom 'Refine' spell that creates processed material from raw materials without the mana loss caused by traditional industrial methods thus not raising it's OR.

You could manufacture some extremely cool stuff that way.

I agree, though I've wondered whether one would need an appropriate Artisan Skill to go with the spell, in order to make the precise shape he wanted. Or... simply Shape a material into a mold?

I'd just like to point out that "Trees" are specifically listed in the Object Resistance chart, with a resistance of 1. This would suggest that they're a valid target for shape spells.

Fire I'd rule as being OR 1 if it started naturally, OR 2 if it was man-made.

I'd say artisan skill. I mean, I can shape clay using my hands, but I need a lot of skill to make something beautiful. The ability to reshape a thing is different from being able to do it precisely, or skillfully.

Maybe... It takes someone with a lot of skill to make a beautiful clay pot because they have to learn how to physically control their hands to make the material move into the shape that their mind envisions. This is not the case for someone using the Shape spell. The material will take the shape they see in their head.

What you would gain with Artisan skill, or Engineering would be design. You would know how to make the item more durable by knowing structural points of the material and how to give it it's best use.

Note, however, that in doing something like making a chair, a lot of the Artisan skill would be in knowing how to tongue and mortise join parts together and how to put parts together sturdily. This would be unnecessary with the Shape spell, as the whole chair could be one continuously uninterrupted piece, with no need for joins.

The aesthetics would be something you wouldn't need any Artisan skill for.

Although, one problem I can think of it that since you are "eye balling" the whole thing, you could possibly make things that "look flat" from where your perspective is, but might not be flat really. That could be a problem when making something like a Table.

What Skill would you need for an aesthetic expression, if not Artisan?

Also, KeyMaster, have you found the Gatekeeper, yet?

Well, my supposition is that you wouldn't need any skill, other than imagination for aesthetics.

And no. Are you the GateKeeper?

Yah, the metal reinforcement for most structural concrete isn't like just chainlink fence. It's a heavy gauge steel cage sometimes several layers thick.

You'd need heavy duty saws or torches to get through it, even if you shaped the concrete away.



-karma

Shape [Iron Based Alloys]

In any art form, the virtuoso must master the technique before she can be free of technical constraints. In this instance, that would mean understanding things like the physical properties of materials, so a shape that remains together and is beautiful can be fabricated.

No, but I could be Gozer. Or... is it Gomer?

Very good! But then that's two spells being cast.

The point was, however, it's not just as simple as snipping it with shears.



-karma

You people think WAY too hard about this stuff.

A second spell is faster and cheaper than an industrial plasma metal cutter.

Again, you are right, but that wasn't the point.

I was just trying to clear up the misconception that the rebar in structural concrete was just a thin wire mesh.



-karma

I agree 100% as long as you are not using magic that allows you to bypass technique, because you require no technique when the material responds perfectly to your will. You do not need to know about stress fractures or grain or anything like that to shape the material without breaking it. The material flows to your will without breaking at all. The only thing you might need to know would be for structural strength, like making thin spans hold heavy parts up. You could still make it beautiful without including any of those obvious flaws, and if you did and it broke, you could just cast the spell again and correct those problems. You could become a "virtuoso" in hours or days.

All "technique" is, is learning how to physically manipulate things into such a way as to make a desired effect. This is not needed if your desired effect happens by magical force of will.

At least that's my opinion.

Let's go back to this a bit.
Technically, Trees are complex living beings.
If they are there as an example for object resistance, does that mean one can use a Shape[Tree] Spell?
Not that one would find all that many trees in most Megaplexes to begin with . . Maybe things that LOOK like trees . .
And if one can, then what about Shape[Species of your Choice]?
Probably not, probably much violence after the proposal.

On page one I already asked about Shape Flesh/Bone. Shape homo sapiens or Shape carbon based lifeform would be even more overpowered.

That is generally know as "Shapeshift"

fixed. the miniwelder in the core book is only 250

Technique includes understanding the limitations of the material with which you are working, and the limitations of the tools you are using. When Photoshop came on the scene, whole new capabilities became available to artists who had only used paintbrushes before. They still had to learn how to make Photoshop work. And, more importantly, they still needed the aesthetic experience to know what is beautiful. So Artisan Skill, I think, is still necessary for a character to Shape [material] into an object of beauty.

So there we go, our opinions are expressed. Are we done?

You misunderstand me. I don't want to shapeshift into a homo sapiens but I want to be able to reshape the material that makes up a homo sapiens.

Shaping Homo Sapiens into a Dog is still Shapeshift (or even more simply, Critter Form)... But I do get your drift...

Shaping Homo sapiens into a suitcase is more the drift, I think.

Probably, that is where it seems to be leading anyway...

Nope. We are not done.

Your photoshop example proves my point. To make something you visualize appear on the screen as the beauty in your mind's eye, you have to learn the techniques of using photoshop to make pretty pictures. That is equivalent to learning an Artisan skill. However, all of that is learning how to make the tools do what is in your mind. The Shape spell nullifies all this, as the material moves automatically into the shape your mind visualizes with no tools at all, and no need to know how to make a raw block of this material take the shape you want without breaking it. Structural soundness after you release the spell would be the only possible consideration, not aesthetics.

I will agree with you that you would need taste and style to make something of beauty with this spell, but that is not the same as technique.

Orks and Trolls are usually quite good at that naturally, Awakened or not