I understand the desire to mix in the armor rating of the spirit, it isn't to make the spirit stronger than it has to be, but rather to balance it vs manifestation spirits. I think I'd go half way on this myself. Rather than giving a force 6 spirit 12 points of armor to stack with the mages armor + possible form fitting, I'd give em 6. Going the other way would mean the mage is getting 18 extra dice to resist physical damage (when the average +6 to body is added in).

There's no reason a Materialized spirit can't put on armor so long as that armor is fitted for it. If you're doing Binding then you're spending some time getting the spirit together for the run, so why not use a Fashion spell to cutomize armor for it? Or, you could always carry a Body Armor Bag along with you and give it to your newly-summoned Materization spirit...

*sigh*.... Originally I agreed w/ you Malachi and others... it was only once I got into a discussion based on spirits and attacks and ammo types that I really looked at the rules. It was one of the reasons I found possession traditions broken in fact. Once I had that much cleared up... I changed my mind on this... they're radically different but provided the RAW is applied not nearly as bad as I thought.


The rules are VERY CLEAR... ItNW hardened armor does not stack with worn armor in any way. Look under the ItNW power in the game, it gives critter power hardened armor... read hardened armor... nowhere in the power does it say that it stacks. Look at Mystic armor and natural armor... they both explicitly say they stack. In SR4 (and SR4a) every source of stacking armor explicitly says it stacks, if it does not say so, it does not stack.

Lets put it this way... you say you do it this way. Why?! You provide no reasons why others should house rule this. Yet then you turn around and give a massive indication and complaint about it (possessed orc walking right through machine gun nest w/o even getting scratched because of the ludicrous amount of armor it provided). What BENEFIT does it provide to allow this (WHICH DOES NOT BADLY UNBALANCE THINGS).


Part of the complications which arise... if AP is present... which gets reduced first normal armor or hardened armor if it's combined?
The answer is both because they don't stack, only the higher value matters. Check the damage against the hardened armor value reduced by AP, if it's higher. Then apply the AP against the higher armor value and roll body + armor normally.


Possession traditions have some very nifty tricks which are not available to materialization traditions. Looked at the rules for possession lately... need to sneak into some place... possess the guard (6 dice or so vs. 12 is a foregone and guard may not even realize the spirit is trying to do it to him from astral).

The biggest problem is that possession is radically different than materialization. And many plaers (and DM's) don't read to figure out what the differences are. And then you get powergaming twinks who exploit everything and anything (and especially GM's ignorance) and go overboard.


Now onto the called shot idiocy... okay who says spirits have no vulnerable points? What does a spirits physiology look like?! Who's to say that their isn't knots of magical energy which are critical to their functioning. While it's quite right that called shot to bypass armor might not work... anyone w/ some knowledge of spirits should be able to do a called shot for damage I'd say. (lets say the mage assences it and says aim for the wings... etc.). Or it might be a matter, of having the player buy a few knowledge ranks in knowledge magical threats.


Also, since spirits are apparently gods gracing our space... why is it that armor will protect them. Maybe their makeup is crystalline in nature... hard crystal like diamond. But when a diamond breaks it shatters... kevlar won't help a diamond one bit. Put this another way, if you put a kevlar vest on a window... then shoot the vest will the window break (the answer is yes, the kevlar won't help as it's built upon the nature of humans that we're quite elastic and can take some bruising, but don't like being punctured).

See my point... if you pull an argument out of nowhere that they're invulnerable w/o any source citing... I can pull an equally valid argument that they are and that PC armor won't work as intended as they need special protection.


That much said... if someone wanted to put an armor bag on a spirit... i wouldn't argue... but the only time it would make a difference is if the spirit was attacked by a weapon focus or other spirit bypassing ItNW. (it's very unlikely the spirit has enough armor that ItNW is not going to be a much bigger amount of armor than anything worn).


One last two point:
I also disagree w/ not allowing called shots to up damage before the armor threshhold test. In the case of vehicles this is huge... Snipers learn this intimately well, as they can disable armored vehicles, but only if they target them and aim for vulnerable points. Without this, it's nigh impossible for even a sniper rifle to hurt an armored vehicle. (as they don't take stun... can only do physical and that only if you exceed armor damage). When you got vehicles w/ 20 armor... even a panther assault cannon has trouble w/o called shots.



That one house rule... not allowing net hits to more than double the damage of a wepaon is one of the worst I've ever read..... It's called dumb luck.

Yeah I remember poor Bolg... he was taunting the security guards in his heavy military armor, taking his time going to make them suffer... he opened his mouth and that guard got lucky... the round went right through his teeth and bounced around inside his skull turning his brains to mush.

Just because you didn't explicitly aim for a weak point, does not mean that it will not get hit. Especially true of automatic weapons on wide bursts... (or shotguns)

Murphy's laws of combat: It's not the one with your name on it you gotta worry about. It's the one marked "to whom it may concern"

Actually, there is now drain. "Innate spells cause Drain as normal." (SR4A.p296)

....on Innate Spells, sure. We're also discussing Elemental Attack, for which there is no drain.

Ah, ok. Cool. Makes the Spirit of Man a tiny little bit less effective but...hey...no problem. Still good enough.

Very patronizing. I am trying to discuss this like an adult, and would appreciate you following my lead and keeping it mature. Like I posted before, keep personal attacks in PMs, and try and go against the argument, not the other person. Comments like this are not quaint, cute, clever or cool.





Consider this logically. An immunity to an attack takes effect when the attack hits the target that has immunity. It is magical, so it is skin tight. There is no encumbrance, there is no putting it on or taking it off. It is a status of the body of the spirit.

Worn armor is outside the spirits body. The bullet hits and interacts with the armor before it touches the spirit. The armor would have its full effect (stop or slow the bullet) PRIOR to the bullet ever touching the spirits body, so the bullet will have less force by the time the immunity is calculated in. Simple physics suggest figuring the worn armor first, then the immunity second.

As far as the book not mentioning the stackability of immunity... it does not need to. Stackability/Layering of armor are rules that apply to armor... something worn outside the body. The immunity is an internal effect based on the nature of the being, so layering rules would not apply to it unless the rules specifically said they did.

Remember, this is a magical status of the spirit that has an effect equivalent to 2xforce hardened armor, but it is in fact NOT armor that the spirit wears outside its body.

Thanks for your replies all. For those who kept it mature and furthered the discussion, kudos.

re: armor stacking. I think that Hardened Armor DOES stack. There's a NPC in Ghost Cartels whose armor DOES increase to (normal + 2 x spirit's magic rating) when she's possessed. There are also examples in Street Magic and Digital Grimoire that state inanimate objects can enhance their own barrier rating/armor when possessed by a spirit.

But I would say that only the hardened armor applies in terms of immunity. So if you're wearing a armor jacket (6/4) and you're possessed by a Force 4 spirit, you'd get 14/12 armor and an attack would have to be at least 9DV to affect you, not 15. Digital Grimoire implies that your new armor total can give you an armor penalty if it exceeds your possessed Bodyx2 as normal.

Also, on Edge spending. A lot of posters want to smack down Edge use as abusive, but Street Magic does explicitly state that spirits are "likely" to use Edge to resist banishing or to complete an assignment. The way we play it, a player asks but the GM decides.

Since DamienKnight asked originally about possession being very powerful, the answer is yes, it is. Remember, though, that all that immunity-based armor doesn't apply against magical attacks. So in the example above, if you get attacked with a spell (say Powerball), a weapon focus (an enchanted knife), a critter power or even an adept with Killing Hands, your armor is back down to its old 6/4. Banishing is an option, too. The possessed host still uses his/her original mental stats, so he/she is just as vulnerable to Stunbolt as before. Finally, a GM can always override a player's action since their mind is "impotent" (unless they have Channeling, anyway), though I'd use that option sparingly and only in accordance with the spirit's tradition or relationship with their summoner.

Oh, also remember that the damage done by drain will hamper the possessed mage's actions as normal, though this wouldn't apply if the spirit possessed someone/something else.

This is an excellent point. I think I'm going to be running it like this from now on.

Yeah, I agree with your logic as far as the spirit armor goes. However, this is case where I think the logical result should be discarded for the sake of game balance. Otherwise those Possession Mages are just too powerful.

Stackability/Layering of armor are rules that apply to armor...

In SR3. Doesn't work in SR4 or SR4a though, where you only use the highest armor rating unless it specificly says in its discription that it stacks.

So what if you are wearing an Armored Jacket and are Possessed by a Rating 3 spirit? You don't actually gain ItnW power because the spirit's Immunity "armor" is less than your ballistic? Or would the Immunity/Hardened armor still function, but it wouldn't add any dice to your soak roll?

You'd probably check to see if it penetrates the hardened. If it does then you apply the armored jacket. By definition if it doesn't penetrate your hardened then the hardened is automatically your highest armor since it's rating is now infinite.

Just a hint. Check the stone-skin (i think its called granite-shell) in the compendium. THIS specific hardened armor EXPLICITELY doesn´t stack. Maybe this could be another point to look at. If you check feral cities, the char. there (can´t remember the name) is also possessed and GETS the boni. So there is no final solution i think. It seems we have to houserule it, as long as we ain´t got an explanation from official sources. But in MY game, it definitely stacks. I simply makes no sense if it wouldn´t. Armor is armor, and like DamienKnight explained, it definitely makes more sense.

Yes it tacks, but you still only have to do more then force*2-AP damage to penetrete it, wonr armor doesn't count when checking if the atack can do any damge at all.

Max, I respectfully disagree on the stacking. Every other armor in the game that stacks specifically states ether in its description or the armor rules that it stacks. Our best bet is to ask to staff for clarification on this subject. Until we receive that it will fall down to GM's call.

Consider this logically... what a joke.

All of your logic is based on your own personal fluff. Logic built w/o a sound foundation is useless and can be used to argue anything. It's simply another form of relativism.

I'm being quite blunt on that point. People insist on looking at things from a very narrow perspective at times.


First problem: You assume that spirits need or are vulnerable to damage in the same way as humans. Are you suggesting that spirits are flesh and blood and vulnerable to all the aspects of them, so would benefit from the protection mechanisms used by humans to protect their frailties? Or are spirits special magical constructs with their own sets of frailties and markedly different from flesh and blood humans. (EG: just because that earth elemental appears to be crystalline doesn't mean that it is)

Second Problem: You completely fail to consider the game implications of your decision (after bitching about them). When it's pointed out that it's a house rule to stack the armor as the RAW explicitly doesn't, you turn around and give fluff reasons why it should.

Third Problem: It's magic... it doesn't require explanation it just is. How do you know that the magic doesn't work by some wierd mechanic halfway between the deflection & armor spells. Or how about this one... bullets w/o sufficient energy simply pass right through the magical form and it simply heals them like wolverine. Only larger wounds can't self heal that quick and if armor is worn it gets in the way of this instantaneous regeneration? I can keep going and keep making other scenerios... see my point. Depending on the scenerio armor may or may not help, and I can arbitrarily make them up at will.


Machiavelli:
RAW is VERY clear... Hardened armor power lacks any wording whatsoever saying it stacks. The general rule is always thus, armor does not stack unless it explicitly says it does.

Your only counterexample is exceedingly weak as well. Tell me the last setting/adventure book which came out where someone HASN"T complained that NPC stats weren't wrong in some way. (best epitomized by the original character archetypes in the BBB) I can't recall.


Here in a big nutshell is the single biggest reason to respect the RAW.
Possession mage... channels himself w/ a puny force6 spirit.
He now has a body of 10.
Meaning he can now wear 20 points of armor unencumbered (btw, this was my introduction to possession spirits).
He now claims 12 points of Immunity armor on top of that.

Lets get this straight... 20 points of armor, 12 points of ItNW, and 10 points of body is 42 soak dice to resist damage. (not including the 10 reaction dice to avoid getting hit in the first place). That's 50 dice to avoid damage, for ONLY AN AVERAGE CASE. Help us indeed if this ends up being a tricked out orcish or troll ghoul. Who cares about Immunity 12 hardened, when you can simply buy 12 hits on the DR soak test! (or are looking at 20'ish body dice before armor even)

In order for players (and NPC's) to reasonably challenge something like this, armor has to be kept in line. Not everyone has a tasor (nor can use it credibly against the 15'ish dice the guy will avoid melee attacks with) and SnS is fighting words around here (when it comes to spirits).

When the target STILL has 25'ish dice to resist damage... SnS is kinda moot anyhow... (you can buy 6 hits of resist on 25 dice... 8 rolled). You're still practically immune.


See the issue in pure game balance terms... how do your mundanes deal with this? You've let the genie out of the bottle... not one of you has offered up a counter argument which addresses these game balance problems. Not one. Every single reason above for stacking as a house rule is based on fluff based on 'this is how the magic works', when it really doesn't matter how exactly the magic works, only that it does.

One Mana Static spell at Force 4 with 4 hits is going to really screw this guy. The ItNW will drop to 4 points (useless for stopping anything), Body will drop by 4, and then his worn armor will result in him taking another -4 dice to Agility and Reaction rolls. So now you've taken away 12 dice of damage resistance and 4 dice to avoid being hit. Throw in called shots and the nasty ammo types - including stick-n-shock (if your going to be a RAWdogger then you have to accept everything that's RAW) - and the target is going down pretty quickly.

Besides, your missing that the Materialization magician gets a big bonus - he gets his actions and the spirit's actions rather than one lump set. This is a huge thing, really.



It's SR - you get your own magic. That's like complaining that your magic-users can't use magic to stop hackers from screwing with their SINs. If nothing else, hire a mage to donate a bound spirit's services to you for a set time (or until you use all of the services).

HappyDaze

You missed a critical part of my point... I said 'MUNDANE'.

What's the street sam supposed to do when faced with this? how about the rigger? the decker? The technomancer (not quite mundane but for this example might as well be).

Counter that guy w/o using any magic. The only thing I see is either getting a demolitions expert and drawing him into a trap or anti-vehicle weapons (and even those might not do the job!).


Absurdly high armor ratings are a problem for both players and NPC's.



Now to illustrate that you really don't know what you're talking about:

4 hits on a mana static take 4 combat turns (not passes) to take effect... so meanwhile the guy has multiple passes to move out of the AOE or to hammer you back with an actual combat or mindrape spell. (which you probably should have done in the first place).

Well too be fair, since the base assumption is that in the OP's campaign this guy is basically a walking tank the answer is to get bigger guns, of course the rest of the party will probably die as well, but I consider that their fault for being stupid enough to associate with someone that might as well be a nuke.

consider this logically: you have created your own problem. you are unwilling to enact solutions that solve the problem that you have created for yourself. you just sit there, in a hole you dug yourself into, complaining about the fact that you're in a hole and it sucks. if you don't like this description of the situation you're in, then maybe you should go look in the mirror and have a discussion with the person who's to blame for the situation.

alternately, you can just sit in your hole and complain about being in the hole, and complain about people who point out that there's plenty of room outside of the hole to sit down. it's all up to you.

And I said, "Why?" There is no reason to limit your self to a mundane response.


Hire a magician to provide a loaned spirit or (for much more money) to directly intervene and attempt to nuke the spirit.


No. I don't counter hackers without tech (or technomancer equivalents) so why do it with magic. I'm not playing that stupid game where you get all the toys in the box to create a problem and I have to deal with it with some arbitrary restictions on my solutions. i'm not giving you that kind of control.


Now you're starting to think...


While you're busy slinging insults, let me help you understand a bit of tactics - since your assumption of either an open field battle or a 10x10 room seem to indicate that you don't know what you're talking about:

It's called area denial. You don't have to take the fight to the spirit, he may just have to come to you. This is basically a trap/ambush, and it's one way to deal with a 'tank' when you're not packing anti-tank weaponry.

And again you miss the point... your counter of 'I refuse to play that game' is exactly why you don't see the problem.


For a decker/rigger their method of interacting w/ the world is to use drones. Drones aren't all that scary to a street sam... he has means to deal with them, and he doesn't need to go into their turf (the matrix). Worst he has to worry about is nanites which activate his wireless against his will and getting his cyber hacked. And he even has defenses against that (nano-hives w/ the appropriate nanite). They can even turn off their comms and ignore him taking a slight penalty for it (restricted comms... lack of tacnet.. etc.)

No one expects a guard, or a street sam, or whatever to enter cyber and have to attack and deal w/ a hacker. Even then probable worst case is probably cold sim and a knockout from blackout (which cannot overflow to lethal damage).



On the other hand, when the possession mage walks into any facility. Or you stumble into him... what are 80% of players supposed to do? Your answer keeps coming back to... get another mage to fight the mage. That's a surefire sign of a severe imbalance in the system.

I got news that's a bad mechanic, when your only option is to fight fire with fire... the fire is overpowered and broken.


I like magicians and such. They are reasonably powerfull in game. Possession types even more so. They don't need any house rules making them even more so. If that goes too far, you end up w/ even more of a backlash. When things get nerfed, normally they aren't hit with the shaping hammer, but w/ the sledgehammer.

Your problem doesn't exist. The characters attacked with this possession spirit are not restricted from haiving their own magical assets. However, if you insist on following this idiotic fallacy that you're limited to using non-magical solutions, try chemical weapons. Per RAW, spirits have no special resistance to toxins, and if the mage has an outfit with a chemical seal, then he's already in the blatantly obvious land before the spirit shows up, so countering with rail guns and missiles is perfectly reasonable.


I strongly disagree that possession magicians are more powerful. There is plenty of things that work better with a pet rather than another personal boost.


Wrong. They interact with the world through information. A good hacker can fuck you up terribly without ever using a drone or directly touching your meat in any way.

 
"What, what do you mean I can't do "social combat" and persuade him not to hit me and join my side once combat started? My only option is to fight fire with fire?"

Alternatively.. in another gm's game

"Oh noes, I don't have any social DP to deal with a face nor do we have a face in our group."
*tries shooting*
"Oh noes, he is actually the pornomancer. He persuaded me to not shoot him and join his side. Now I have turned gay for him. I couldn't do anything about it because I don't have social DP. I have to fight fire with fire after all?"





Ahem..

Sometimes you do just have to fight fire with fire. Also note that magical resources is not the same as magic.

Do keep in mind what others have already mentioned that makes a spirit not as powerful as one might think. Spirit has his own mind and is under no obligation to help the mage, especially if the mage is abusive. They aren't drones after all and do not follow your order like a mindless being. In fact, depending on the tradition, you can have great roleplaying opportunity using a spirit. If the player is constantly summoning a spirit much more powerful than he is, the spirit might not be very happy about it. Why help a puny mortal in the other realm and possibly getting hurt when he could be having fun with his spirit girlfriend in another realm, or whatever. Maybe he will demand tributes. Of course, this might be considered as intentionally weakening the spirit, but one that makes some sense.

Introduce ít to what i like to call a partymix of gas grenades:Pepper punch, Breathtaker,Tear gas and maybe Neuro-stun too.
That should mess-up his day.

Maybe someone else has said it, but I'm not sure you can command a spirit to use edge.

A channeling possessed mage does have a serious weakness... commanding voice. Ill have a phys ad elf with leadership/persuasion just order him to release the spirit of its services. Fight one broken power with another! w00t!


Ok, enough about armor. I think people have planted the fence, and the two sides are:

1. Armor and immunity are seperate powers, and immunity is not affected by stacking limitations, so armor first, then immunity when resisting.

2. Immunity is actually the same as regular hardened armor, so unless otherwise noted, it cannot stack with other armor.


Lets move on from that topic, I think the sides are now as polarized as American politics, and one side seems to get their jollies playing in the mud, which is against forum rules.


New problem with possession spirits:

When they attempt to possess anyone, they get to roll force x 2 against the targets willpower + intuition. Mages/awakened get no special dice against this. So basically unless you have max willpower and intuition, you dont have much hope against a force 6 spirit.

Ahh! I cannot justify having all my special forces guys having 6 intuition and willpower. It just doesnt make sense. So basically everyone is without protection against a decent possession mage.

But wait, we will use drones! Surely their firepower will overcome, right? Nope. Drones cannot resist possession... it just requires a force x 2 (4) test, which on average a force 6 spirit will make without edge. This applies to ALL drones and Vehicles, no matter how large or powerful.

So bring on the tanks.. because the force 6 possession type spirit will take your tank and use it against you! Muaahahhahaha (cue lightning and horror music).

In the last run I had with a possession type mage, he took the enemy riggers armored van and had it possessed... the drove it to the top of a parking garage and straight off the roof, then pull the spirit out before it hit the ground. Gah! Now the strike team that come via helicopter better have a pimped mage with him, or else the helicopter is totally getting possessed and crashing. Does this seem overpowered to anyone else?

And there is nothing a mage can do against it, other that attacking the spirit. And if they manabolt it, the spirit may get counter spelling from the mage, AND from itself if it had magical guard.

One option suggested earlier, which my group is probably going to use to neuter these spirits is Banishing as Counterspelling VS spirit powers. Basically Banishing is under-utilized in my group... why try and banish the powerful spirit when you can stunbolt it for alot less drain. But what if banishing could be used to add some dice for people resisting spirit powers, including possession. Now the spec ops with 4 willpower and 4 intuution has a change if the mage in his team can add 4 dice from banishing. And now banishing is a more vital skill and hard to ignore!

One solution that sometimes works is to use the same tactics as the players. Who's to say the other side doesn't have a possession-tradition mage? Sometimes players will stay away from tactics you don't like or worry about if you show that you're willing to do the same to them.

@Damienknight: I REALLY like your idea of using the banishing skill as "counterspelling" against possession. Besides i think i am the reason for the massive amount of discussions over this complete topic, i also think that it is a little bit overpowered (that is the reason i took it ^^) AND it would make a nearly useless skill finally usable. I will go for it and introduce it in our campaign.

I too like this rule.

Notice to the "why should I have to fight fire with fire?" people: In Shadowrun, Magic must be countered with Magic. This is a design feature of the game that has been in place since the beginning.

No, that is a myth, it is easier to counter magic with magic, but it is hardly necessary.

Especially with stuff like Manatech and Unique Enchantments that are starting to really blur the line between Awakened and Mundane.

My experience is that even with manatech, mundanes can try to delay or detect magic, but they can't counter it. Magicians, on the other hand... those you can counter with bullets. Some just need bigger bullets than others.

Actually it was Jaid who initially suggested the banishing as counterspelling spirits idea in the other thread.


As far as the rest... I have no beef w/ magic being the primary counter to magic. I have a beef if low/average magic is badly overpowering. (especially if it's house rules which make it so)

Just I also believe that heavy weapons should also be an option. And when you get ludicrous levels of armor, this is no longer an option and now your only option is yes, another mage.

I just think there's something wrong if all your players start feeling the need to pack heavy lasers and gauss rifles just to deal w/ an average force possession spirit situation. (let alone a high force one)

Quite frankly... magic coming in and screwing up the established order is one of the key motifs of shadowrun.


Damien:
Now you see why I stand that peoples assertions of calling materialization 'pets' isn't quite right. They're different, but quite effective in different ways. If I materialize a spirit I turn a 2 on 2 into a 3 on 2... if I possess a spirit I turn a 2 on 2 into a 3 on 1 (much better odds!). If I have 2 possession spirits I can take them both and use them against the next encounter. It doesn't matter, every time you possess something you have one enemy 'turn traitor' so to speak.

Another problem I see... drones are object resistance 5 now. Not OR4 as you state in your post. Not that it makes much difference, with 12 dice... just means it might take an extra pass or two to possess it successfully.

Materialization still has problems w/ drones... possession just takes them for itself.

Though one thing to keep in mind, possessing a drone does NOT give control of things like it's weaponry. So while the spirit can move the dorne around, the weapons are still owned & operated by the rigger. Makes me wonder if there's things the rigger could do to reestablish control or make things hard on the spirit... short of a self-destruct.

Possession can outright eliminate one combatant just by bringing the spirit into the material plane. Materialization stlil needs to off the guy.


As far as possession 'fixes' to above... sorry... now you're talking house rules.
(though I always thought it would be funny to have a mage carrying around blow up dolls as a prepared vessel for his spirits).

False. Larger, more complex, and more highly processed drones and vehicles have higher object resistance and thus higher thresholds.

i'm also pretty sure i picked up the idea from someone else. i don't *think* it's mine originally in any case.

McAllister most of the time countering magic is the same as countering the Mage, which is pretty easy even without bullets, just turn out the lights and release some spores most of the time. Manatech and Backgroundcount/Ebbs work pretty good as well.

Hm... what is so bad about spirits taking over drones? I mean they can't use the electronics (as i understand) which means they can't fire the weapons, or use any special equipment. All they could do is trying to run you over, or not? (Well if the drone has ARMS with normal weapons in them... then you are screwed)

Spirits can perform any mechanical function, and the example in the street magic book explains that firing a gun is considered a mechanical function. This means any weapons on the drone that have a trigger (an option for turrets) are usable. But most guns on a drone are wirelessly controlled...

But a machine gun fires as a result of a mechanical process within the gun. The trigger only triggers this process. Unless the gun specifically has an 'Electronic Firing mechanism', a spirit should be able to operate the mechanical parts inside a gun and make it fire.

Now the spirit would not gain the benefit of cameras, communication or smartlinks... but none of the stock LMG's that drones so love to carry are setup with electronic firing mechanisms. Most guns will be usable by the spirit.

Another problem for the spirit however... unless it is a guardian spirit that specifically has the Heavy Weapons skill, they are probably going to be firing with agility -2. They would probably be better off using a spirit power...

Suppressive fire is pretty effective, even with only a hit or two. Remember, it's not immediately obvious that you don't have to duck, and you're not paying for those bullets, so it can be worthwhile to take out a drone and buy a turn of cease fire for one measly service.

Well... I dont know if this has been suggested.. But Isn't there some kind of spell(Dont remember the name) that raises or lowers the background count? Say it s a F6 spirit... raise the BG count to 6 and it dies. This is assuming that the spirits prefered BG count is at 0 to begin with. Again... this is also subject to counterspelling and all that. But maybe your HTR has two mages just incase. One of my players once use alot of spirits and this was one of the solutions I considered using. He died through other means before I got a chance to use it.

I do believe this spell is easier to cast than a F10 stunbolt or manabolt... Raise the BG count around the enemy mage, or your vehicle to stop possession and all that

it gets worse. heavy weapons skill won't cut it; these are drones, the guns are fired using the gunnery skill because they are vehicle mounted. note that gunnery is actually a vehicle skill, and is not an option for guardian spirits.

It is only considered Gunnery because they are firing the guns remotely. Since the spirit is possessing a Drone, any Turret mounted weapons would be considered part of the drone, and usable by the spirit like a limb on a possessed person.... so they would use the corresponding firearms or heavy weapon skill.

I like the "+ Banishing" to resist hostile Possession (I wouldn't apply it to a voluntary Possession), and I'm going to put it into play right away.

However, I'm also thinking that the rules for Vessel Preparation should be able to be used in reverse. In simple terms, the rituals used should also be able to make a vessel harder to target with Possession. If done, the +6 modifer would be given to the vessel for the Possession test rather than to the spirit. This would have the side-effect of making Enchanting a bit more useful to the genral street magician, too.

While I think this change is very easy to impliment, I'm left wondering about the duration of this protection. Since such preparation generally takes a day or two, is it reasonable for it to last for the classic "a year and a day" duration, or would a 28 day cycle be better?

I quote: p102 street magic.
"a possessed bright red SAAB Fury would be able to drive itself, but not access GridLink, use a Pilot program, or target weapons with sensors."

Look at the vehicular rigging/command/ordering rules... rigging... attacks are made using sensors + gunnery.
EG: spirit cannot use weapons on possessed car, the spirit does not possess a command program and cannot use it if it did, the spirit cannot order the autopilot to target things and attack them.

What skill would the spirit use for attacking w/ a weapon turret btw? Guardian spirits don't get Gunnery, gunnery isn't a combat skill it's a vehicular skill. What attribute would it default on? There is no agility on a vehicle to enhance. Also this is another point... the use of ANY VEHICULAR MOUNTED WEAPON USES GUNNERY (not the weapon skill). Doesn't matter if you're the worlds gift to assault rifles... if that assault rifle is in a pintle mount in the back of a truck, you use gunnery (not automatics).


Note Bene: under inanimate objects... p86. 'large or complex items may require multiple spirits possessing multiple functions to operate".
So again, w/o addressing the what skill & attribute problem... with the above note... potentially you could have one spirit drive, and another spirit as the gunner inhabiting the gun.


So again, you have the rules not quite right Damien.

This also has another route to abuse btw... the dual natured battering ram drone. Get a drone, put a ram plate on the front. Anchor an extremely high force ward to the ram plate. Now have the spirit possess it and charge things for collision damage. (the rules for interacting w/ wards are pretty brutal for dual natured... and even nastier you can ram purely astral targets w/ the ward). The normal problem w/ this trick is the drone can't see into the astral and a mage trying to control one while astrally percieving is a problem. A spirit though... he can drive it at will into anything you want.


Also, under the possessed person rules... if that limb is a cyberlimb... no dice. Possessing spirits cannot use cyberlimbs... so just how do they use the weapons turret, and again using what skills? Vehicles don't have agility... possessed people do.


The fact that the spirit has control of the drone is quite powerfull in itself though mind you. If I have 3 bound and one summoned spirits... each one can literally 'occupy' a drone and make the rigger pointless. Even worse... the spirits can uninhabit the drones one at a time when we're in a position to deal with them (or capture them... such as under the influence of a heavy duty jammer).

It's no different than if the HTR team has 3 commandoes... if a service possesses all 3... they're no threat. You can strip them naked... take their gear... have them bugger each other for the cameras... steal on camera... then when you tire of them leave them tied in a closet or worse.
They don't have to be able to fight, just taking them out and turning them into your slave is generally a huge swing in a fight.

you would also use gunnery for a pintle-mounted gun placed in the door of a helicopter, or any other similar setup where the gun is mounted on the vehicle.



if you want you can change it of course, but my previous opinion applies: if you're going to power up the spirits, don't expect any sympathy from me over the spirit being unexpectedly powerful.

that said, they *could* default to agility imo. the skill is agility-linked, and for manual operation where you don't use the sensors (such as what the spirit would be doing) you would use agility. i would probably assign the turret an agility score based on the turret type... i'd have to look at the various turret types to decide how much, but probably nothing exceeding 4 base, and i'd think more in the area of 2 for normal. (if it's fixed forward/other direction, then obviously 0)

I really like this idea as a defense. I'll use it for sure if I sense things getting out of hand.

That is not what the rules say at all. Not even close. The spirit cannot target weapons with sensors. It says nothing about firing weapons. The spirit can fire any weapon it wants to, it just has to manually target them, which will be problematic when you're talking about longer distances and things like missiles and grenades.