Yes, and it wasn't by accident. But one of the first things most people starting the game seem to do is build a melee adept. Which ends up up totally sucking unless the GM is your girlfriend. Then you try the gun adept, which isn't nearly as sucky, but just doesn't work nearly as well as you expected. Adept IPs cost as much as they did in SR3, when magic 6 was free, and when cyber/bio IPs were very expensive. The game fluff still seems to push the combat adept too.
The actual role that Adepts have ended up really good at are the non-combat roles.
Full Version: Limiting Magic
QUOTE (Umidori @ May 28 2012, 03:45 PM) 
It really depends on the sort of game you play. You said it yourself, "in virtually every combat niche."
Short of breaking in, a cybered up bruiser is NEVER getting into a high security area without having their 'ware deactivated or even removed. A bioware guy can keep most of his mods undetected, but he isn't going to get a katana or an SMG in - hell, he might not even get a pistol in. So unless you're a bioware brawler who fights unarmed, no dice.
If you play the sort of game where most of the time you're just shooting or skulking your way in, that's fine. More power to ya. Other folks might play games where they enter into negotiations with high level crime bosses or corporate managers, or where they need to hide in plain sight or get inside high security areas without raising any eyebrows or tripping any alarms.
Adepts might be less than optimal for running and gunning, and your campaigns might consist chiefly of that sort of gameplay. But for those who play with a greater focus on outwitting foes rather than outgunning them, Adepts are amazing. Busting into a corporate research lab, making off with vital data, and neutralizing any security you encounter on the way without taking a hit is good. Walking into the lab and discreetly copying the needed data without anyone suspecting a thing, AND still being able to fight very well (if not as amazingly well as a street sam) if the shit does hit the fan, is even better.
~Umi
Short of breaking in, a cybered up bruiser is NEVER getting into a high security area without having their 'ware deactivated or even removed. A bioware guy can keep most of his mods undetected, but he isn't going to get a katana or an SMG in - hell, he might not even get a pistol in. So unless you're a bioware brawler who fights unarmed, no dice.
If you play the sort of game where most of the time you're just shooting or skulking your way in, that's fine. More power to ya. Other folks might play games where they enter into negotiations with high level crime bosses or corporate managers, or where they need to hide in plain sight or get inside high security areas without raising any eyebrows or tripping any alarms.
Adepts might be less than optimal for running and gunning, and your campaigns might consist chiefly of that sort of gameplay. But for those who play with a greater focus on outwitting foes rather than outgunning them, Adepts are amazing. Busting into a corporate research lab, making off with vital data, and neutralizing any security you encounter on the way without taking a hit is good. Walking into the lab and discreetly copying the needed data without anyone suspecting a thing, AND still being able to fight very well (if not as amazingly well as a street sam) if the shit does hit the fan, is even better.
~Umi
I guess I'm just not seeing cyberware users being stopped at every door and the guy glowing with magical energy walking past security like he is not a threat. Places that are going to have chem sniffers, cyber scanners, mad systems are also going to have magical security. In our games they raise the same type of alarms. And they both generally have similar solutions the right cover ID.
Edit to add: And I'm not even saying adepts suck or anything. Just that powers like sonic elemental hands is not broken. That might make his attacks somewhat powerful, but it isn't the big of a deal. It at best makes HtH a almost viable option in combat.
QUOTE (kzt @ May 27 2012, 02:05 PM)
"Immunity to Normal Weapons: This immunity applies to all
weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter
powers). If the critter has the Allergy weakness, then the Immunity
does not apply against non-magical attacks made using the allergen."
Can you explain exactly how S&S is magical? Given that a spirit has exactly zero impact armor, how much do they have after it is divided? And where it says that magical defenses that render someone immune should be divided?
And yes, S&S uses glue, which has it's own logical issues (like most body armor and clothing is not a conductor), I was thinking of tasers. Which typically also work just fine for people using that same rules interp. People also use S&S & tasers against drones, which has even more logical issues. Mostly involving the issue that tasers don't stick to armored vehicles worth a damn and even paint tends to have a rather drastic effect on conduction.
It's house rules all the way down.
weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter
powers). If the critter has the Allergy weakness, then the Immunity
does not apply against non-magical attacks made using the allergen."
Can you explain exactly how S&S is magical? Given that a spirit has exactly zero impact armor, how much do they have after it is divided? And where it says that magical defenses that render someone immune should be divided?
And yes, S&S uses glue, which has it's own logical issues (like most body armor and clothing is not a conductor), I was thinking of tasers. Which typically also work just fine for people using that same rules interp. People also use S&S & tasers against drones, which has even more logical issues. Mostly involving the issue that tasers don't stick to armored vehicles worth a damn and even paint tends to have a rather drastic effect on conduction.
It's house rules all the way down.
SnS is NOT MAGICAL. It is, however, an attack that halves Armor. A Spirit's ITNW acts as Armor (Ballistic and Impact). Therefore it is subject to the Halving qualities of SnS. Nothing tricky there...
Double Post - Damned Gremlins...
QUOTE (Neraph @ May 29 2012, 01:57 AM)
If casting a spell and using a Power can't break the Planes Barrier (with the notable exception of Astral Gateway) than what makes you think the spell/Power effect can?
There IS the weirdness that is Concealment, but that probably belongs in the broken rules thread
Not really, because Infiltration can be used to evade Astral Perception also. But I do see your point.
QUOTE (Umidori @ May 28 2012, 03:10 PM)
@kzt and Dakka
Again, please, where does it say that?
I'll certainly concede you can't target astral forms without being able to see them, which requires astrally perceiving and being astrally active. But how does it make any sense for a mana spell, something which doesn't actually manifest on the physical plane, something which damages foes by shredding their astral auras and mana matrixes, to not affect astral forms caught in the radius by chance?
~Umi
Again, please, where does it say that?
I'll certainly concede you can't target astral forms without being able to see them, which requires astrally perceiving and being astrally active. But how does it make any sense for a mana spell, something which doesn't actually manifest on the physical plane, something which damages foes by shredding their astral auras and mana matrixes, to not affect astral forms caught in the radius by chance?
~Umi
It has to do with targeting. If the caster cannot perceive the target, the astral something cannot be targeted. I know in SR1 & SR2 it was made very clear.
Physical Plane = Physical and Mana spells
Astral Plane = Mana spells only
You also could not spell cast across the Physical | Astral boundary except under certain circumstances (Grounding for example. It's gone now BTW.)
Given your example, if the caster cannot see the target on the plane the spell is being cast within, the target cannot be affected by it.
So if I am casting a Mana spell on the Physical plane, I cannot use it to harm an Astral Entity because neither me nor my spell are on the plane of the target. On top of that, if my target is solely Astral-based, I cannot perceive it on the Physical in such a way that allows targeting. I would have to shift to Astral Perception or Projection to be able to affect the Astral only target.
As I recall, SR1 & SR2 also referred to Physical Plane Mana and Astral Plane Mana as being different. Physical Spells used the Physical Plane Mana while Mana Spells used Astral Plane Mana. As such, I could NOT use Physical Plane Mana to cast a spell on the Astral. Don't you love the confusing verbiage even all the way back in SR1 & SR2?
Once again, where are you getting this? I asked how the spell was supposed to work, several people said "This is how it works", but none of them have fulfilled the burden of proof of showing me where in the rules the way they think it works is actually established.
I concede, it MIGHT work that way, but it also MIGHT work a different way. Until someone shows me that it DOES work that way, I'm going to continue to ask for clarification. If we players can't provide proof one way or another by scouring the rules, perhaps we can take it to a developer. I dunno.
~Umi
I concede, it MIGHT work that way, but it also MIGHT work a different way. Until someone shows me that it DOES work that way, I'm going to continue to ask for clarification. If we players can't provide proof one way or another by scouring the rules, perhaps we can take it to a developer. I dunno.
~Umi
QUOTE (Umidori @ May 29 2012, 08:58 PM)
Once again, where are you getting this? I asked how the spell was supposed to work, several people said "This is how it works", but none of them have fulfilled the burden of proof of showing me where in the rules the way they think it works is actually established.
I concede, it MIGHT work that way, but it also MIGHT work a different way. Until someone shows me that it DOES work that way, I'm going to continue to ask for clarification. If we players can't provide proof one way or another by scouring the rules, perhaps we can take it to a developer. I dunno.
~Umi
I concede, it MIGHT work that way, but it also MIGHT work a different way. Until someone shows me that it DOES work that way, I'm going to continue to ask for clarification. If we players can't provide proof one way or another by scouring the rules, perhaps we can take it to a developer. I dunno.
~Umi
Here you go Umidori...
QUOTE (Street Magic, Limits of Sorcery, Page 160)
Sorcery Cannot Bridge the Gap between the Astral and Physical Planes
Spells only have an effect in the plane on which they are cast. Spells cast on the astral have no effect on the physical, and vice versa. Likewise, spells cast in the astral or physical have no effect on the metaplanes, and vice versa.
Spells only have an effect in the plane on which they are cast. Spells cast on the astral have no effect on the physical, and vice versa. Likewise, spells cast in the astral or physical have no effect on the metaplanes, and vice versa.
It is pretty cut and dried...
Thank you, I was looking in all the wrong places.
Of course, now we get into the tricky bit. While I now concede that Manaball splashing to the astral cannot happen, I still wonder about the original line of questioning.
What constitutes the "effect" of the Detect Magic spell? Because I would say the "effect" of the spell is that the target of the spell gains a new, special, psychic sense. That new sense then operates exactly as described. The operation of the new sense is NOT the same as the effect of the spell.
~Umi
Of course, now we get into the tricky bit. While I now concede that Manaball splashing to the astral cannot happen, I still wonder about the original line of questioning.
What constitutes the "effect" of the Detect Magic spell? Because I would say the "effect" of the spell is that the target of the spell gains a new, special, psychic sense. That new sense then operates exactly as described. The operation of the new sense is NOT the same as the effect of the spell.
~Umi
QUOTE (Umidori @ May 30 2012, 01:47 PM)
Thank you, I was looking in all the wrong places.
Of course, now we get into the tricky bit. While I now concede that Manaball splashing to the astral cannot happen, I still wonder about the original line of questioning.
What constitutes the "effect" of the Detect Magic spell? Because I would say the "effect" of the spell is that the target of the spell gains a new, special, psychic sense. That new sense then operates exactly as described. The operation of the new sense is NOT the same as the effect of the spell.
~Umi
Of course, now we get into the tricky bit. While I now concede that Manaball splashing to the astral cannot happen, I still wonder about the original line of questioning.
What constitutes the "effect" of the Detect Magic spell? Because I would say the "effect" of the spell is that the target of the spell gains a new, special, psychic sense. That new sense then operates exactly as described. The operation of the new sense is NOT the same as the effect of the spell.
~Umi
That psychic sense will detect what it describes on the side of the Barrier that it is cast upon. Typically the Physical.
By that logic a Manabolt cast on the physical shouldn't work, since you're not manifesting a physical effect, but a mana one. But it does, because that's how the spell operates as written. I would assume the same of Detect Magic.
~Umi
~Umi
QUOTE (Umidori @ May 30 2012, 02:24 PM)
By that logic a Manabolt cast on the physical shouldn't work, since you're not manifesting a physical effect, but a mana one. But it does, because that's how the spell operates as written. I would assume the same of Detect Magic.
~Umi
~Umi
What? How do you figure that? Why would a Manabolt cast on the Physical not work? I was talking about planes of existence and which side a spell is cast upon, not whether a spell is physical or mana. Both (Mana or Physical Based) work on the Physical plane, only Mana based spells work on the Astral Plane. What are you trying to say here?
If you cast a Detect Magic Spell on the Physical Plane, it will detect (Enforce its Effects) on the Physical Plane. If cast on the Astral (it is a mana based Spell afterall) it will detect (enforce its effects) on the Astral Plane. Not sure what you are trying to make a point of here Umidori?
Besides, a Psychic sense granted by Sorcery has the same limitations that the Sorcery Spell itself has.
TJ
Think it's time we ceased to feed this troll.
Think it's time we ceased to feed this troll.
QUOTE (Umidori @ May 30 2012, 08:47 PM)
What constitutes the "effect" of the Detect Magic spell? Because I would say the "effect" of the spell is that the target of the spell gains a new, special, psychic sense. That new sense then operates exactly as described. The operation of the new sense is NOT the same as the effect of the spell.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 30 2012, 09:16 PM)
That psychic sense will detect what it describes on the side of the Barrier that it is cast upon. Typically the Physical.
While TJ is 100% right about the general principles of Sorcery, Umidori is also right in that the wording of the spell is not so cut and dried, so there is wiggle room for his interpretation ... which makes it a GM call. Myself, I would go with TJ's interpretation because the spell does not specifically state that it works on both the physical and astral planes simultaneously and, with the exception of Astral Gateway that basic principle is so well established in the game.
Shouldn't make too much difference in practice though, as the mage can either cast the spell twice (once on each plane) for 2x sustaining penalties, or cast it on the physical plane and perceive astrally or vica versa.
QUOTE (Midas @ Jun 1 2012, 05:47 PM)
While TJ is 100% right about the general principles of Sorcery, Umidori is also right in that the wording of the spell is not so cut and dried, so there is wiggle room for his interpretation ... which makes it a GM call. Myself, I would go with TJ's interpretation because the spell does not specifically state that it works on both the physical and astral planes simultaneously and, with the exception of Astral Gateway that basic principle is so well established in the game.
Hmmm - it DOES seem pretty cut and dried though. If you cast a spell on the physical plane, the spell cannot affect anything on the astral plane, and vice versa.
So the "effect" of the Detect Magic spell, if cast on the physical plane, is that it gives an extra sense that must only work on the physical plane, since by the rules no spell can cross planes. If the mage astrally perceives/projects, he doesn't get to carry any spell effects over into the astral.
QUOTE (Midas @ Jun 1 2012, 05:47 PM)
Shouldn't make too much difference in practice though, as the mage can ... cast it on the physical plane and perceive astrally or vica versa.
I think if the mage casts a Detect X spell on the physical plane and perceives astrally, they can use the Astral Perception sense and that's it. You don't get thermographic or low-light or ultrasound when you astrally perceive, you get Astral Perception.
QUOTE (Ziploxx @ May 23 2012, 05:42 AM)
My group and I are on probably our 3rd shadowrun 4th Edition campaign(the last ones only lasting between 2-5 sessions) and coming up on the 4th session of this campaign. We have completed 2 runs. We have been using a lot more matrix and astral stuff. The GM played a hacker the first campaign we did, and now we have a rigger and I'm half hacker. So we have a lot of checks and balances in the matrix, but none of us really know the rules for magic, just the one player who is using it.
The first run we did with him in it the Spirit took about half the time and killed about half the people. Sure, binding it almost makes him passout. Rebinding it seems to suck to. But he has these spirits bound and rampaging through the run(given one command of kill everyone in X area, so he still had like 2), killing entire squads. This guy doesn't know anything about breaking(optimizing) this system either, he's playing a fairly "whatever" shaman and rolling between 8-14 dice. The run had a ward in each building and 2 on-sight mages. Each mage was able to take one shot at the fire spirit before getting demolished . And while his spirits doing all this crap he's rolling for other spells and junk, shouldn't he have to sustain it or something?
Now we know the GM isn't THAT read on either the Matrix or Magic. What are some extended astral security measures? Should the mages be banishing quicker? I haven't even cracked street magic, so I'm most likely way underread.
EDIT: SORRY! It's 4th Edition Magic.
The first run we did with him in it the Spirit took about half the time and killed about half the people. Sure, binding it almost makes him passout. Rebinding it seems to suck to. But he has these spirits bound and rampaging through the run(given one command of kill everyone in X area, so he still had like 2), killing entire squads. This guy doesn't know anything about breaking(optimizing) this system either, he's playing a fairly "whatever" shaman and rolling between 8-14 dice. The run had a ward in each building and 2 on-sight mages. Each mage was able to take one shot at the fire spirit before getting demolished . And while his spirits doing all this crap he's rolling for other spells and junk, shouldn't he have to sustain it or something?
Now we know the GM isn't THAT read on either the Matrix or Magic. What are some extended astral security measures? Should the mages be banishing quicker? I haven't even cracked street magic, so I'm most likely way underread.
EDIT: SORRY! It's 4th Edition Magic.
... but back to the scheduled programme.
Yes, I am afraid that spirits (especially high force ones) can be quite powerful. Saying that, using bound spirits constantly should burn through services, and binding materials ain't cheap. If you are on a run for 10K in payment, the mage using all the services of a bound F5 spirit will cost him half his payment from the run. If the mage insists you all split the bill for binding materials, then your characters have a good IC way to persuade him against overuse of bound spirits, at least unless the shit really hits the fan.
Wards and other spirits, or enemy mages with Stunbolt can also rain on his parade, as can drones with heavy enough weapons to defeat its ItNW. As others have said, your GM should be the one controlling the spirit, and the mage should be careful about the wording of his command. Unless the mage is abusing spirits they should generally perform the caster's command to their best ability, but 1 combat/service is the general rule of thumb I use. Commands like "Kill all my enemies in the building!" can backfire as the spirit rampages alone through the building and causes the guards to either pick it off (not quite so scary when there are not a bunch of runners supplementing their firepower) or raise the alarm, for instance.
Finally, it is important for everyones fun that everyone takes a share of the limelight, and so if all else fails you can talk with the GM and the mage's player OOC and tell them that you aren't having much fun with this SpiritRun game, and the player and/or the GM may well help rein things in.
QUOTE (Midas @ Jun 1 2012, 12:07 PM)
... but back to the scheduled programme.
Yes, I am afraid that spirits (especially high force ones) can be quite powerful. Saying that, using bound spirits constantly should burn through services, and binding materials ain't cheap. If you are on a run for 10K in payment, the mage using all the services of a bound F5 spirit will cost him half his payment from the run. If the mage insists you all split the bill for binding materials, then your characters have a good IC way to persuade him against overuse of bound spirits, at least unless the shit really hits the fan.
It's a quarter of the pay (2500¥). Binding materials cost Force*500¥. But otherwise that is a good point. On the other hand I have never had the need for a bound spirit. Summoned ones do most of the stuff already. The only drawback is that only one remote service is possible. But in that case just summon a new one. High force spirits are unbound most of the time anyways as it is much more difficult to bind them than to summon them for IMHO little benefit.
Yes, I am afraid that spirits (especially high force ones) can be quite powerful. Saying that, using bound spirits constantly should burn through services, and binding materials ain't cheap. If you are on a run for 10K in payment, the mage using all the services of a bound F5 spirit will cost him half his payment from the run. If the mage insists you all split the bill for binding materials, then your characters have a good IC way to persuade him against overuse of bound spirits, at least unless the shit really hits the fan.
Ah, since we are at it... Questions to planes and the seperation of planes...
Or happy astral patrol...
Everybody knows the situation. The mage just leaves his body to fly around a bit. But what happens with spells on his body? Do they still affect him? What is with cyberware?
So 3 different mages project:
1. Mage
This mage has the spell combat reflexes sustained on him before (mana spell). Does this spell carry over to the astral plane?
2. Mage
This mage has a Cerebral Booster 3 and an increase willpower spell (3 hits) on his body? His natural attributes are Logic 5, Willpower 5. What are his projected attributes?
3. Mage
This mage has a attention co-processor. Can he use this cyberware on the astral?
Or happy astral patrol...
Everybody knows the situation. The mage just leaves his body to fly around a bit. But what happens with spells on his body? Do they still affect him? What is with cyberware?
So 3 different mages project:
1. Mage
This mage has the spell combat reflexes sustained on him before (mana spell). Does this spell carry over to the astral plane?
2. Mage
This mage has a Cerebral Booster 3 and an increase willpower spell (3 hits) on his body? His natural attributes are Logic 5, Willpower 5. What are his projected attributes?
3. Mage
This mage has a attention co-processor. Can he use this cyberware on the astral?
It seems to me that ItNW's is the real problem with spirits, especially with how easy spirits are to summon. It means that most standard weapons, firing standard ammunition are useless (what the guards use) and while runners can usually handle them pretty easily with wide bursts or high power weapons, special ammunition, and your typical really high skill. It means for the opposition to threaten the easily summoned spirits, they have to packing a lot of heavy fire power. Spirits also have the same binary, no damage/instantly disrupted problem that is seen with vehicles. That might be intentional, but it's not something I particularly like.
I can understand spirits being mutable and able to ignore most minor damage, but I don't like a lot of the things we see as a result of ItNW. It doesn't make sense APDS, designed to penetrate armor, is much more effective against spirits than say an exploding round. Or that spirits can ignore many shots focused upon them (narrow burst), but are more likely to be wounded by a random spray of bullets (wide burst). Or SNS. Maybe this fits with how others perceive spirits but it doesn't for me.
Anyone have a good houserule for ItNW's?
I want rules that make them a little more ablative and less binary, so that other people besides the mages can stand a chance. I also want spirits to mostly ignore low end weapons, while also having some resistance to high end weapons. I want it to also reflect that this comes from a spirits ability to materialize and change it's shape. I picture a spirit more like the T-1000 absorbing bullets than superman with bullets just bouncing off.
Maybe something like: A spirit replaces ItNW's with Regeneration, spirits don't have discernible anatomy so you cannot make called shots for extra damage, and gains a normal armor value equal to twice its force. A Force 6 spirit then would roll about 18 (Body 6 + Armor 12) against damage and on average resists 6 damage and heals 4 damage a round. The spirit is not disrupted until it's in full overflow. Your standard pistol won't take them down, but when back-up arrives and three or four guys unload on the spirit they can take it down.
I could also see incorporating something where anytime a spirit takes damage greater than its force from a single attack, it costs one service, so that really large powerful weapons still are more effective.
Still doesn't feel exactly right.
I can understand spirits being mutable and able to ignore most minor damage, but I don't like a lot of the things we see as a result of ItNW. It doesn't make sense APDS, designed to penetrate armor, is much more effective against spirits than say an exploding round. Or that spirits can ignore many shots focused upon them (narrow burst), but are more likely to be wounded by a random spray of bullets (wide burst). Or SNS. Maybe this fits with how others perceive spirits but it doesn't for me.
Anyone have a good houserule for ItNW's?
I want rules that make them a little more ablative and less binary, so that other people besides the mages can stand a chance. I also want spirits to mostly ignore low end weapons, while also having some resistance to high end weapons. I want it to also reflect that this comes from a spirits ability to materialize and change it's shape. I picture a spirit more like the T-1000 absorbing bullets than superman with bullets just bouncing off.
Maybe something like: A spirit replaces ItNW's with Regeneration, spirits don't have discernible anatomy so you cannot make called shots for extra damage, and gains a normal armor value equal to twice its force. A Force 6 spirit then would roll about 18 (Body 6 + Armor 12) against damage and on average resists 6 damage and heals 4 damage a round. The spirit is not disrupted until it's in full overflow. Your standard pistol won't take them down, but when back-up arrives and three or four guys unload on the spirit they can take it down.
I could also see incorporating something where anytime a spirit takes damage greater than its force from a single attack, it costs one service, so that really large powerful weapons still are more effective.
Still doesn't feel exactly right.
Maybe the issue is with the average power level of Spirits in your game.
If you do not mind me asking: What is the average level of Spirit in your game, summoned by PC's?
For a comparison, our table's average is 3-4, based on the ruling that Spirits of Force 4+ automatically spend Edge to resist both Summoning and Binding. We have not really had any issues with ITNW as a result.
If you do not mind me asking: What is the average level of Spirit in your game, summoned by PC's?
For a comparison, our table's average is 3-4, based on the ruling that Spirits of Force 4+ automatically spend Edge to resist both Summoning and Binding. We have not really had any issues with ITNW as a result.
Well, our current game is street level and started with 300BP, with PC's building from NPC stats. Our mage just raised her magic to 4, so our average spirit has been Force 2 or 3 and we haven't really had any problems, but everything seems to work better at this end anyway. We use spirits use Edge whenever they're over your Magic. We've actually had problems the other way.
In our last game, we had a general agreement not to summon above Force 6. I agree that ItNW's doesn't become a problem until Force 4+.
In our last game, we had a general agreement not to summon above Force 6. I agree that ItNW's doesn't become a problem until Force 4+.
Remember boys and girls with spirits... spirits like to stay astral (they're safer there). By RAW they return to it as soon as they finish there service. Use this ESPECIALLY against possession munchkins who use services faster than materialization spirits (remember possession itself is an attack on unwilling victims... they don't do it for free).
Another thing is that the RAW hints at a spirit only performs one service at a time. Why do I say this... BBB: "If the parameters of a service are changed, ..., another service is used". If you ordered the spirit to sustain concealment on you and your friends... then you order it to use movement you've changed the parameters of the service it was rendering. (this is a good way to force characters to burn resources on multiple spirits if they want multiple powers at once... like say aid sorcery, concealment, movement, all at once, all from the same spirit all the time... bind it then let it wander away to do it's own thing while sustaining them on you).
Dakka has something implied wrong. Summoning on the fly is great if you have a good drain pool. But ordering a spirit on remote service only releases the unbound spirit after it finishes it's remote tasks (you can order an unbound spirit to do multiple sequential tasks remotely if it owes you multiple services). Summoning another breaks that link and those services owed and the remote one is set free. You can only ever have one non-bound spirit at a time. That said yes, it's best to use summoned spirits to do most of your stuff... make it part of your daily ritual summon one in the morning and again after sunset. Keep your bound spirits in reserve or for use of other activities.
Onto the astral...
1. I've mostly seen this played as yes in most games.. I say by RAW the answer is negative though. (astral rules say you get X IP's... no different than if a street sam with 4 IP's goes into hotsim... he still only gets 3 IP's matrix because the rules say so, only magic/tech/whatever that directly alters that rule would would like a simsense booster).
2. If you've cast those spells.. have that bio/cyber installed... your astral stats are 8/8. If the spell is dispelled though it can't be recast until you're back in your body. Spells cast on you stay with your astral form, and you're still linked to your meat body despite projecting.
3. No, attention coprocessor specifically says it does not help with astral or matrix perception. Which leaves only natural perception checks as enhancements.
2a. wierdness... you project. Leaving your limp body behind (counts as an empty vessel). Shedim/voodoo/whatever possession monkey takes it over... you fade away til you're dead and shedim keeps your body. However, this is where it gets weird. You can stunbolt your astral form into deep unconsciousness and the damage is ALSO applied to your body and by extension the possessing spirit. Fun no.... though you may not like lying in a gutter unconscious outside a ghouls nest if you ever wake up.
Another thing is that the RAW hints at a spirit only performs one service at a time. Why do I say this... BBB: "If the parameters of a service are changed, ..., another service is used". If you ordered the spirit to sustain concealment on you and your friends... then you order it to use movement you've changed the parameters of the service it was rendering. (this is a good way to force characters to burn resources on multiple spirits if they want multiple powers at once... like say aid sorcery, concealment, movement, all at once, all from the same spirit all the time... bind it then let it wander away to do it's own thing while sustaining them on you).
Dakka has something implied wrong. Summoning on the fly is great if you have a good drain pool. But ordering a spirit on remote service only releases the unbound spirit after it finishes it's remote tasks (you can order an unbound spirit to do multiple sequential tasks remotely if it owes you multiple services). Summoning another breaks that link and those services owed and the remote one is set free. You can only ever have one non-bound spirit at a time. That said yes, it's best to use summoned spirits to do most of your stuff... make it part of your daily ritual summon one in the morning and again after sunset. Keep your bound spirits in reserve or for use of other activities.
Onto the astral...
1. I've mostly seen this played as yes in most games.. I say by RAW the answer is negative though. (astral rules say you get X IP's... no different than if a street sam with 4 IP's goes into hotsim... he still only gets 3 IP's matrix because the rules say so, only magic/tech/whatever that directly alters that rule would would like a simsense booster).
2. If you've cast those spells.. have that bio/cyber installed... your astral stats are 8/8. If the spell is dispelled though it can't be recast until you're back in your body. Spells cast on you stay with your astral form, and you're still linked to your meat body despite projecting.
3. No, attention coprocessor specifically says it does not help with astral or matrix perception. Which leaves only natural perception checks as enhancements.
2a. wierdness... you project. Leaving your limp body behind (counts as an empty vessel). Shedim/voodoo/whatever possession monkey takes it over... you fade away til you're dead and shedim keeps your body. However, this is where it gets weird. You can stunbolt your astral form into deep unconsciousness and the damage is ALSO applied to your body and by extension the possessing spirit. Fun no.... though you may not like lying in a gutter unconscious outside a ghouls nest if you ever wake up.
QUOTE (thorya @ Jun 1 2012, 03:41 PM)
Well, our current game is street level and started with 300BP, with PC's building from NPC stats. Our mage just raised her magic to 4, so our average spirit has been Force 2 or 3 and we haven't really had any problems, but everything seems to work better at this end anyway. We use spirits use Edge whenever they're over your Magic. We've actually had problems the other way.
In our last game, we had a general agreement not to summon above Force 6. I agree that ItNW's doesn't become a problem until Force 4+.
In our last game, we had a general agreement not to summon above Force 6. I agree that ItNW's doesn't become a problem until Force 4+.
Hmmm... Okay.
Even at Force 4-6 ITNW truly is a non-Issue. It becomes a problem at 7+ from my experience.
Good Luck in your Quest.
Quick question: what does "ITNW" stand for?
Immunity to Normal Weapons.
Either that or "Into the New World", by South Korean pop girl's group "Girl's Generation".
~Umi
Either that or "Into the New World", by South Korean pop girl's group "Girl's Generation".
~Umi
Pax:
ItNW == Immunity to Normal Weapons
I know what you're referring to. But it's not really broken so much as it's weird. (it's brokenness only comes from the -Force dice aspect which is a bit too powerful).
Concealment's exception only applies to things which are dual natured (it specifically says dual natured critters) to hide them from astral detection as well as normal detection. Under the strictest reading that would be only critters with the dual-natured critter power (they also get niceties such as extending mundane natural weapons like claws into astral combat using their physical instead of mental stats (not even adepts/spirits get that)). A more liberal reading would only allow a spirit to use it to conceal itself on the astral only while materialized and dual natured (though not dual natured critter power).
At least it's a clearly marked exception to a rule.
Thorya:
The problem with your suggestion is yet once again... possession. Possession has a nasty habit of breaking everything. The regeneration would extend to the living host as well as the spirit.
Also, regeneration only pulses once per combat pass. Not per initiative pass. Also all your immunities to things such as called shots and the like are overkill. I really dislike this whole meme... it's magic therefor it's completely invulnerable. Mundanes are pretty much screwed short of bringing their own mage. It smacks too much of magic instead of being a useful tool in game instead turns into an 'I win' button. (I say that as someone who more often than not ends up playing the mage).
ItNW == Immunity to Normal Weapons
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ May 28 2012, 10:32 PM)
There IS the weirdness that is Concealment, but that probably belongs in the broken rules thread
I know what you're referring to. But it's not really broken so much as it's weird. (it's brokenness only comes from the -Force dice aspect which is a bit too powerful).
Concealment's exception only applies to things which are dual natured (it specifically says dual natured critters) to hide them from astral detection as well as normal detection. Under the strictest reading that would be only critters with the dual-natured critter power (they also get niceties such as extending mundane natural weapons like claws into astral combat using their physical instead of mental stats (not even adepts/spirits get that)). A more liberal reading would only allow a spirit to use it to conceal itself on the astral only while materialized and dual natured (though not dual natured critter power).
At least it's a clearly marked exception to a rule.
Thorya:
The problem with your suggestion is yet once again... possession. Possession has a nasty habit of breaking everything. The regeneration would extend to the living host as well as the spirit.
Also, regeneration only pulses once per combat pass. Not per initiative pass. Also all your immunities to things such as called shots and the like are overkill. I really dislike this whole meme... it's magic therefor it's completely invulnerable. Mundanes are pretty much screwed short of bringing their own mage. It smacks too much of magic instead of being a useful tool in game instead turns into an 'I win' button. (I say that as someone who more often than not ends up playing the mage).
QUOTE (Irion @ Jun 1 2012, 03:44 PM)
Ah, since we are at it... Questions to planes and the seperation of planes...
Or happy astral patrol...
Everybody knows the situation. The mage just leaves his body to fly around a bit. But what happens with spells on his body? Do they still affect him? What is with cyberware?
So 3 different mages project:
1. Mage
This mage has the spell combat reflexes sustained on him before (mana spell). Does this spell carry over to the astral plane?
2. Mage
This mage has a Cerebral Booster 3 and an increase willpower spell (3 hits) on his body? His natural attributes are Logic 5, Willpower 5. What are his projected attributes?
3. Mage
This mage has a attention co-processor. Can he use this cyberware on the astral?
Or happy astral patrol...
Everybody knows the situation. The mage just leaves his body to fly around a bit. But what happens with spells on his body? Do they still affect him? What is with cyberware?
So 3 different mages project:
1. Mage
This mage has the spell combat reflexes sustained on him before (mana spell). Does this spell carry over to the astral plane?
2. Mage
This mage has a Cerebral Booster 3 and an increase willpower spell (3 hits) on his body? His natural attributes are Logic 5, Willpower 5. What are his projected attributes?
3. Mage
This mage has a attention co-processor. Can he use this cyberware on the astral?
1. No, it is a Physical spell.
2. Yes, and no to having an effect. The Cerebral Booster has become part of the mage's body, and has been paid for by Essence. The spell is a Physical spell. So, Logic 8 and Willpower 5.
3. This is the tough one for me. It has been paid for by Essence so yes, but is a machine, for crying out loud so no, but it affects a characteristic that transfers to the astral yet is inextricably linked to the meat operation of the body. So, yes.
Interesting PB...
You ignore the bits about your astral form still being linked to your physical body in terms of stats and all.
The spell is linked to the mages physical body, and so long as sustained will be. The mages astral stats are set by his meat body stats... (astral initiative is something different than meat body initiative... but the mental stats are still based on his physical bodies mental stats; and going astral doesn't stop him from sustaining a spell (or from an active foci sustaining it)).
Then ignore the explicit wording of the attention coprocessor which explicitly says it DOES NOT help with matrix or astral perception. (I don't understand why the question even needed asked given out blatantly this is spelled out in augmentation). On top of that is even another hurdle. On the astral... perception is never used... assensing replaces it for all uses (a completely different skill).
You ignore the bits about your astral form still being linked to your physical body in terms of stats and all.
The spell is linked to the mages physical body, and so long as sustained will be. The mages astral stats are set by his meat body stats... (astral initiative is something different than meat body initiative... but the mental stats are still based on his physical bodies mental stats; and going astral doesn't stop him from sustaining a spell (or from an active foci sustaining it)).
Then ignore the explicit wording of the attention coprocessor which explicitly says it DOES NOT help with matrix or astral perception. (I don't understand why the question even needed asked given out blatantly this is spelled out in augmentation). On top of that is even another hurdle. On the astral... perception is never used... assensing replaces it for all uses (a completely different skill).
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 1 2012, 02:49 PM)
It's a quarter of the pay (2500¥). Binding materials cost Force*500¥. But otherwise that is a good point. On the other hand I have never had the need for a bound spirit. Summoned ones do most of the stuff already. The only drawback is that only one remote service is possible. But in that case just summon a new one. High force spirits are unbound most of the time anyways as it is much more difficult to bind them than to summon them for IMHO little benefit.
Thanks for picking up my misremembered binding materials cost.
At least with summoned spirits, you only get one at a time compared to CHA number of bound spirits. And wards can help burn up services/provide a barrier to their entry some of the time.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 2 2012, 07:15 AM)
Interesting PB...
On top of that is even another hurdle. On the astral... perception is never used... assensing replaces it for all uses (a completely different skill).
On top of that is even another hurdle. On the astral... perception is never used... assensing replaces it for all uses (a completely different skill).
I was under the impression that Perception still worked on the astral for noticing things, although you would still need Assensing to gain information on any auras you saw.
No SR4a p191... astral perception...
"An actual test should only be called for when an astral being is specifically trying to hide, or when a character is strying to astrally observe in detail; in both these situations an assensing test is made".
So any situations which would call for an opposed perception test.. or when you try and make active use of the perception skill get replaced with assensing. Which shouldn't be a huge surprise given how 'wierd' the astral plane is in comparison to the physical, and that it's a purely 'psychic' sense and not a physical one.
Also a mage/adept who's percieving has used an action to shift his perception to astral... and needs another simple action to shift their perception back to mundane. So if something wholly mundane is sneaking up on the mage like say a drone... you'd be full within your rights for slapping a -2 penalty on him for interacting with something purely physical on the real world. If he's assensing at that time, use that skill. If he's not assensing... use perception. If he's projecting he has no choice but to assense. (he can't sneak into someone's office and read the writing on the chalkboard astrally... the senses are completely different and convey things differently).
Think of it this way... you dose some poor ganger in the middle of the woods with shade (the awakened drug which forces people to assense if I accidentally named the wrong one). His normal senses turn off as all his senses shift to a psychic equivalent. He closes his eyes... and sees no change... open or closed what's wrong here? He still sees shining 'lights' all around him. EVERYTHING gives off 'astral light' the earth, the trees, the shrubs, the small animals, the big animals... the only place which is dark is the sky. He has no training he can't tell what ANY of it is, anything which is sneaking up on him (like that big cat) he can't even notice in the jumble (opposed assensing test). To him it's nothing more than a confusing acid trip rush (which is why I thought that was an absolutely great idea for an in-game drug). Actually teaching him to make any sense of his situation would mean teaching him the first rank in assensing so he can even make the checks. (assensing is trained only and can't be defaulted on).
"An actual test should only be called for when an astral being is specifically trying to hide, or when a character is strying to astrally observe in detail; in both these situations an assensing test is made".
So any situations which would call for an opposed perception test.. or when you try and make active use of the perception skill get replaced with assensing. Which shouldn't be a huge surprise given how 'wierd' the astral plane is in comparison to the physical, and that it's a purely 'psychic' sense and not a physical one.
Also a mage/adept who's percieving has used an action to shift his perception to astral... and needs another simple action to shift their perception back to mundane. So if something wholly mundane is sneaking up on the mage like say a drone... you'd be full within your rights for slapping a -2 penalty on him for interacting with something purely physical on the real world. If he's assensing at that time, use that skill. If he's not assensing... use perception. If he's projecting he has no choice but to assense. (he can't sneak into someone's office and read the writing on the chalkboard astrally... the senses are completely different and convey things differently).
Think of it this way... you dose some poor ganger in the middle of the woods with shade (the awakened drug which forces people to assense if I accidentally named the wrong one). His normal senses turn off as all his senses shift to a psychic equivalent. He closes his eyes... and sees no change... open or closed what's wrong here? He still sees shining 'lights' all around him. EVERYTHING gives off 'astral light' the earth, the trees, the shrubs, the small animals, the big animals... the only place which is dark is the sky. He has no training he can't tell what ANY of it is, anything which is sneaking up on him (like that big cat) he can't even notice in the jumble (opposed assensing test). To him it's nothing more than a confusing acid trip rush (which is why I thought that was an absolutely great idea for an in-game drug). Actually teaching him to make any sense of his situation would mean teaching him the first rank in assensing so he can even make the checks. (assensing is trained only and can't be defaulted on).
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 2 2012, 02:15 AM)
Interesting PB...
You ignore the bits about your astral form still being linked to your physical body in terms of stats and all.
The spell is linked to the mages physical body, and so long as sustained will be. The mages astral stats are set by his meat body stats... (astral initiative is something different than meat body initiative... but the mental stats are still based on his physical bodies mental stats; and going astral doesn't stop him from sustaining a spell (or from an active foci sustaining it)).
You ignore the bits about your astral form still being linked to your physical body in terms of stats and all.
The spell is linked to the mages physical body, and so long as sustained will be. The mages astral stats are set by his meat body stats... (astral initiative is something different than meat body initiative... but the mental stats are still based on his physical bodies mental stats; and going astral doesn't stop him from sustaining a spell (or from an active foci sustaining it)).
Hmmm... my response may have been influenced by the fact that I have been playing a Free Spirit PC for a while, who does not have a body left behind when he goes astral. I'll wait to see what folks say here.
I made some mistakes.
I wanted to ask about combat sense, which is a mana spell.
The question about the attention co-processor was more in general. I see, that I picked the wrong kind of ware here.
So lets rephrase it to the math SPU. Can I use this, while on astral?
And if can use it I have DNI, thus I could use also a dataport. Which would then allow me to send messages back to the physical world...
This is why my first thought would be, that ware does not work in general, while beeing on the astral.
But there is the bit about "payed" with essence. If Falconer is right, and the stats of the body have to count. Considering spells AND Ware, sustained spells and ware/drugs in your body while beeing astral is quite a strong thing to have.
I wanted to ask about combat sense, which is a mana spell.
The question about the attention co-processor was more in general. I see, that I picked the wrong kind of ware here.
So lets rephrase it to the math SPU. Can I use this, while on astral?
And if can use it I have DNI, thus I could use also a dataport. Which would then allow me to send messages back to the physical world...
This is why my first thought would be, that ware does not work in general, while beeing on the astral.
But there is the bit about "payed" with essence. If Falconer is right, and the stats of the body have to count. Considering spells AND Ware, sustained spells and ware/drugs in your body while beeing astral is quite a strong thing to have.
The rules say nothing about that. You simply use your mental stats. So if you get boosts to your mental stats they should also work on the astral. The Increase [Attribute] spell is a bit iffy. It raises one of the mage's mental attributes, and should not work on the astral plane (it is a P spell). On the other hand, it is not affecting anything on the astral plane but the mage's physical body.
@DNI: The rules do not specify that this works. Just because an Attribute boost works does not mean that any other function of the implant works as well.
@DNI: The rules do not specify that this works. Just because an Attribute boost works does not mean that any other function of the implant works as well.
The rules say nothing about that. You simply use your mental stats. So if you get boosts to your mental stats they should also work on the astral. The Increase [Attribute] spell is a bit iffy. It raises one of the mage's mental attributes, and should not work on the astral plane (it is a P spell). On the other hand, it is not affecting anything on the astral plane but the mage's physical body.
@DNI: The rules do not specify that this works. Just because an Attribute boost works does not mean that any other function of the implant works as well.
@DNI: The rules do not specify that this works. Just because an Attribute boost works does not mean that any other function of the implant works as well.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 2 2012, 05:57 AM)
Use this ESPECIALLY against possession munchkins who use services faster than materialization spirits (remember possession itself is an attack on unwilling victims... they don't do it for free).
The possession spirit can possess an enemy for free, possession itself usually doesn't cost a service. Depends on PC relationship with his spirits and GM interpretation.
Street Magic, p95
"...a spirit ordered to use Guard on someone would need to use Materialize or Possession before it could do so, and both actions would only require one service."
QUOTE (kzt @ May 28 2012, 10:54 PM)
Yes, and it wasn't by accident. But one of the first things most people starting the game seem to do is build a melee adept. Which ends up up totally sucking unless the GM is your girlfriend. Then you try the gun adept, which isn't nearly as sucky, but just doesn't work nearly as well as you expected. Adept IPs cost as much as they did in SR3, when magic 6 was free, and when cyber/bio IPs were very expensive. The game fluff still seems to push the combat adept too.
Yeah, the Adept IP enhancer is just too expensive, even with SR4A dropping the cost a little.
Of course, you can always go the mixed route and get Synaptic Boosters for your Adept to save on the Magic cost (just 1 point for +2 IPs).
Bye
Thanee
The downside to that is that while spent Power Points still count toward your total Magic for the purposes of calculating adept powers, the point of magic lost via bioware doesn't. Oh yeah, and you're spending a whopping 32 BP for the cost of the one piece of 'ware.
Pity you can't initiate at character creation. Unless I've missed something somewhere, of course...
~Umi
Pity you can't initiate at character creation. Unless I've missed something somewhere, of course...
~Umi
I believe you can Initiate through the Karmagen system.
Ooh, nice thinking. Although looking at that section of Runner's Companion just now, it lays that option out as GM fiat. Hrrm.
I tend to like having my characters indebateably legal. Ah well.
~Umi
I tend to like having my characters indebateably legal. Ah well.
~Umi
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 2 2012, 03:48 PM)
No SR4a p191... astral perception...
"An actual test should only be called for when an astral being is specifically trying to hide, or when a character is strying to astrally observe in detail; in both these situations an assensing test is made".
So any situations which would call for an opposed perception test.. or when you try and make active use of the perception skill get replaced with assensing. Which shouldn't be a huge surprise given how 'wierd' the astral plane is in comparison to the physical, and that it's a purely 'psychic' sense and not a physical one.
Think of it this way... you dose some poor ganger in the middle of the woods with shade (the awakened drug which forces people to assense if I accidentally named the wrong one). His normal senses turn off as all his senses shift to a psychic equivalent. He closes his eyes... and sees no change... open or closed what's wrong here? He still sees shining 'lights' all around him. EVERYTHING gives off 'astral light' the earth, the trees, the shrubs, the small animals, the big animals... the only place which is dark is the sky. He has no training he can't tell what ANY of it is, anything which is sneaking up on him (like that big cat) he can't even notice in the jumble (opposed assensing test). To him it's nothing more than a confusing acid trip rush (which is why I thought that was an absolutely great idea for an in-game drug). Actually teaching him to make any sense of his situation would mean teaching him the first rank in assensing so he can even make the checks. (assensing is trained only and can't be defaulted on).
"An actual test should only be called for when an astral being is specifically trying to hide, or when a character is strying to astrally observe in detail; in both these situations an assensing test is made".
So any situations which would call for an opposed perception test.. or when you try and make active use of the perception skill get replaced with assensing. Which shouldn't be a huge surprise given how 'wierd' the astral plane is in comparison to the physical, and that it's a purely 'psychic' sense and not a physical one.
Think of it this way... you dose some poor ganger in the middle of the woods with shade (the awakened drug which forces people to assense if I accidentally named the wrong one). His normal senses turn off as all his senses shift to a psychic equivalent. He closes his eyes... and sees no change... open or closed what's wrong here? He still sees shining 'lights' all around him. EVERYTHING gives off 'astral light' the earth, the trees, the shrubs, the small animals, the big animals... the only place which is dark is the sky. He has no training he can't tell what ANY of it is, anything which is sneaking up on him (like that big cat) he can't even notice in the jumble (opposed assensing test). To him it's nothing more than a confusing acid trip rush (which is why I thought that was an absolutely great idea for an in-game drug). Actually teaching him to make any sense of his situation would mean teaching him the first rank in assensing so he can even make the checks. (assensing is trained only and can't be defaulted on).
Your SR4a p191 quote is interesting, although it does only mention two specific situations (tests to find an astral body trying to hide and determining what an aura is). Will have to go back and check my books. I know about the differences between physical and astral vision.
Not sure I would go as far as you regarding the mundane ganger using astral vision via drugs, the fluff about mundanes taking tempo implies that mundanes seeing astral for the first time can still work out roughly what they are seeing (people, vegetation, big cats), albeit in an acid trip sort of way. Saying that, you are strictly correct if the big cat is trying to sneak up using Infiltration, as an opposed test would be called for and (as you pointed out) it is impossible to default on assensing.
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Jun 3 2012, 01:31 PM)
The possession spirit can possess an enemy for free, possession itself usually doesn't cost a service. Depends on PC relationship with his spirits and GM interpretation.
Street Magic, p95
"...a spirit ordered to use Guard on someone would need to use Materialize or Possession before it could do so, and both actions would only require one service."
Street Magic, p95
"...a spirit ordered to use Guard on someone would need to use Materialize or Possession before it could do so, and both actions would only require one service."
The quote you use does not say that possession doesn't cost a service, merely that it does not cost a service if the spirit's presence on the physical plane is a prerequisite for the spirit to perform the service. Also note that, if not specified in the command, the spirit can choose whether to use possession or materialization to carry out the command. Just sayin'.
QUOTE (Midas @ Jun 4 2012, 03:34 PM)
The quote you use does not say that possession doesn't cost a service, merely that it does not cost a service if the spirit's presence on the physical plane is a prerequisite for the spirit to perform the service. Also note that, if not specified in the command, the spirit can choose whether to use possession or materialization to carry out the command. Just sayin'.
The idea of spirit services and what constitutes the use of a service is really very much in the realm of GM fiat. I was just trying to point out that it's not the case that possession will ALWAYS count as a service, and can definitely be done "for free".
I don't know what you mean about the spirit choosing whether to use possession or materialization. If it's a physical power, the spirit will have to possess something. Spirits don't have both possession and materialization.
@phlapjack77
Yeah, but not the guard. It takes a simple thing. A little bird hanging around or something like that.
I mean the player would also be pissed if you just posses the teams hacker.
In general it is a very bad idea to give summond spirits freebees.
You have to counter it with high BC and so on...
Materialising spirits also do not manifest on top of the guard and take one down as the materialise.
Yeah, but not the guard. It takes a simple thing. A little bird hanging around or something like that.
I mean the player would also be pissed if you just posses the teams hacker.
In general it is a very bad idea to give summond spirits freebees.
You have to counter it with high BC and so on...
Materialising spirits also do not manifest on top of the guard and take one down as the materialise.
QUOTE (Irion @ Jun 3 2012, 08:30 AM)
I made some mistakes.
I wanted to ask about combat sense, which is a mana spell.
The question about the attention co-processor was more in general. I see, that I picked the wrong kind of ware here.
So lets rephrase it to the math SPU. Can I use this, while on astral?
And if can use it I have DNI, thus I could use also a dataport. Which would then allow me to send messages back to the physical world...
This is why my first thought would be, that ware does not work in general, while beeing on the astral.
But there is the bit about "payed" with essence. If Falconer is right, and the stats of the body have to count. Considering spells AND Ware, sustained spells and ware/drugs in your body while beeing astral is quite a strong thing to have.
I wanted to ask about combat sense, which is a mana spell.
The question about the attention co-processor was more in general. I see, that I picked the wrong kind of ware here.
So lets rephrase it to the math SPU. Can I use this, while on astral?
And if can use it I have DNI, thus I could use also a dataport. Which would then allow me to send messages back to the physical world...
This is why my first thought would be, that ware does not work in general, while beeing on the astral.
But there is the bit about "payed" with essence. If Falconer is right, and the stats of the body have to count. Considering spells AND Ware, sustained spells and ware/drugs in your body while beeing astral is quite a strong thing to have.
1) Combat sense
Remember that a spell can be cast on the physical plane or the astral plane, and Physical spells can only be cast on the physical plane. So if a mage casts Combat Sense on his meat body (i.e. the physical plane), the spell remains anchored to his physical body and won't affect his astrally projecting self. If the mage casts the spell on the astral, it can benefit his astrally projecting self.
Please note that in the case of Increase (Mental) Attribute, as Falconer pointed out, the P spell affects the physical body, but the physical body's mental stats determine his astral stats, so in this case the increased stats will translate to the astral form (at least, as long as the spell was cast before the character astrally projected: it would be up to the GM to rule what happens if someone casts the spell on a body already astrally projecting).
2) Cyberware/Bioware on the astral
As you say, cyberware and bioware are paid for in essence so therefore are considered part of "you" if you astrally project. This does lead to some grey areas regarding functionality of some 'ware on the astral, and in these cases it is up to GM interpretation as to what 'ware functionality does and doesn't work on the astral. In your example of someone using the DNI of a Maths CPU to send messages back to the physical world, I would rule that because matrix and magic don't mix it wouldn't work, but another GM might allow it.
Another example would be a cyberarm cybergun: the BBB specifically states that ranged weapons do not work on the astral; therefore I (and in this case probably most other GMs) would rule that cyberarm ranged weapon would not work on the astral, although cyberspurs and melee weapons would.
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Jun 4 2012, 08:41 AM)
I don't know what you mean about the spirit choosing whether to use possession or materialization. If it's a physical power, the spirit will have to possess something. Spirits don't have both possession and materialization.
You're right, of course. Completely forgot that ...
QUOTE (Irion @ Jun 4 2012, 03:58 PM)
@phlapjack77
Yeah, but not the guard. It takes a simple thing. A little bird hanging around or something like that.
I mean the player would also be pissed if you just posses the teams hacker.
In general it is a very bad idea to give summond spirits freebees.
You have to counter it with high BC and so on...
Yeah, but not the guard. It takes a simple thing. A little bird hanging around or something like that.
I mean the player would also be pissed if you just posses the teams hacker.
In general it is a very bad idea to give summond spirits freebees.
You have to counter it with high BC and so on...
I think it depends on a lot of factors, such as
- Does the character have spirit affinity for the summoned spirit?
- Does the character have a history of mistreating spirits? Treating them well?
- Does the GM allow commands like "Possess that guard and shoot the other guard" ?
Spirits can be highly intelligent, and would be willing (IMO) to help the summoner tactically if the situation warrants it.
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Jun 4 2012, 09:14 AM)
I think it depends on a lot of factors, such as
Spirits can be highly intelligent, and would be willing (IMO) to help the summoner tactically if the situation warrants it.
- Does the character have spirit affinity for the summoned spirit?
- Does the character have a history of mistreating spirits? Treating them well?
- Does the GM allow commands like "Possess that guard and shoot the other guard" ?
Spirits can be highly intelligent, and would be willing (IMO) to help the summoner tactically if the situation warrants it.
You are right in answer to Irion's question about spirits acting up, and the default should certainly be that the spirit understands the summoner's wishes unless he/she has Spirit Bane or a history of mistreating spirits.
With regards to your "Possess that guard and shoot the other guard" command, two points come to mind:
1) You end up with one dead guard and one possessed guard as a result (rather than two dead guards).
2) Strictly could be counted as two services as there are 2 separate orders, but most GMs (myself included) would count that as one service unless said mage were a spirit abuser.
No Midas... that's not true.
The higher the force of the spirit... the LESS cooperative it should be. Our general rule is spirit up to your magic you're generally good. More than... expect to start seeing wish wording... edge used to resist summoning and other such mischief. Remember a spirit has mental attributes == to it's force... why should a 8log, 8int, 8wil critter which is smarter than you WANT to be at your beck and call.. especially when it has twice the magic rating of you? (just for sake of argument). Also they don't like being compelled to do anything.
As for the order, it's undisputably two orders.
One order would be to kill that guard... at which point the spirit has to use it's own discretion on how to accomplish the task... the only prepared vessel for the spirit IS YOURSELF... so the spirits first recourse isn't to get another guard... it's to get either your body or another prepared vessel then go about accomplishing the task. (this could take the shape of a piece of jewelry you wear which is a prepared vessel the spirit shoots lightning bolts out of for example). It's next recourse is to pick out a non-prepared vessel... this could easily be one of your teammates, a stray animal, or even that other guard.
As soon as you ORDER the spirit to attack a second guard... you're identifying another order. The more specific your orders are... the more services you burn. You've ORDERED the spirit to use it's power "possession" on a distinct target... that counts as one use of the service. A second service is to then use the stolen body to off the next guard.
This is one reason many of us consider possession to be a broken mechanic. It's the ONLY mechanic left in the game which allows a purely astral entity to attack a mundane target WITH IMPUNITY. I'm going to stress that... WITH IMPUNITY. A guard can do nothing except resist being possessed... he can't shoot the astral form nor attack it in anyway... it either works or it's immune from retribution. Even the old grounding out rules only affected other astrally active characters.. (well excepting the ones who'd intentionally summon spirits to ground out fireballs through to the physical plane).
A materialized spirit on the other hand uses it's action to materialize... it can then be attacked or disrupted... or run away from before it can do anything. It cannot directly attack anything from the astral... it must first materialize and put itself at risk before it can do anything.
The higher the force of the spirit... the LESS cooperative it should be. Our general rule is spirit up to your magic you're generally good. More than... expect to start seeing wish wording... edge used to resist summoning and other such mischief. Remember a spirit has mental attributes == to it's force... why should a 8log, 8int, 8wil critter which is smarter than you WANT to be at your beck and call.. especially when it has twice the magic rating of you? (just for sake of argument). Also they don't like being compelled to do anything.
As for the order, it's undisputably two orders.
One order would be to kill that guard... at which point the spirit has to use it's own discretion on how to accomplish the task... the only prepared vessel for the spirit IS YOURSELF... so the spirits first recourse isn't to get another guard... it's to get either your body or another prepared vessel then go about accomplishing the task. (this could take the shape of a piece of jewelry you wear which is a prepared vessel the spirit shoots lightning bolts out of for example). It's next recourse is to pick out a non-prepared vessel... this could easily be one of your teammates, a stray animal, or even that other guard.
As soon as you ORDER the spirit to attack a second guard... you're identifying another order. The more specific your orders are... the more services you burn. You've ORDERED the spirit to use it's power "possession" on a distinct target... that counts as one use of the service. A second service is to then use the stolen body to off the next guard.
This is one reason many of us consider possession to be a broken mechanic. It's the ONLY mechanic left in the game which allows a purely astral entity to attack a mundane target WITH IMPUNITY. I'm going to stress that... WITH IMPUNITY. A guard can do nothing except resist being possessed... he can't shoot the astral form nor attack it in anyway... it either works or it's immune from retribution. Even the old grounding out rules only affected other astrally active characters.. (well excepting the ones who'd intentionally summon spirits to ground out fireballs through to the physical plane).
A materialized spirit on the other hand uses it's action to materialize... it can then be attacked or disrupted... or run away from before it can do anything. It cannot directly attack anything from the astral... it must first materialize and put itself at risk before it can do anything.
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