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Stev
Hey everybody. I have an interesting inquiry. I decided to be clever and make capsule rounds not useless anymore. I was reading through Man and Machine and I came across some interesting compounds. And I decided to make some sexyful rifle rounds that tagged "Entropy Rounds".

These rounds are standard capsule rounds loaded with Splat Glue, Magnesium, and Thermite. The idea? You get shot and tagged with now molten metal which burns through 6 cm of barrier 12 armor and deals 10D per turn. Unfortunately, meh GM is questioning the integrity of said rounds. Initially, they were achieved with the TN of 4.

He decided, after reading that that wouldn't work out, and that the availability would have to be the compounds divided by two plus four. Which equaled 22. Divided by 2 is 11. Plus 4 is fifteen. The exact equal of my initial roll for the Capsule rounds (just one short of anti-vehicle rounds ;-wink.gif.

What say you SR gurus to the validity of these super crazy go nuts rounds?
frostPDP
I would say (Being the GM in question of course) that at best you'll be paying a lot for them (and you paid standard capsules), there would definitely be a cap to how many of these you could get at what speed (AKA you might get 10. For a month.), you might have to complete a small story arc (Ex: Do a job for a chemist who will then do the actual chemistry) or any other sort of objective.

Also I'm concerned that, as the stats for Thermite in M&M are per kg (avail, cost, etc) that the 10D damage list is for a kg of the Thermite and not for 1/3rd of a paintball's worth.

So what dost the booklawyerninjas say about this?
Pthgar
You probably don't need the splat glue. Sounds a lot like Willy Peter (White Phosphorus).

[edit] I'd call it 10M for pistol rounds vs. Impact and ignition of flammables. 10S for Shotguns. The Power wouldn't change, because all the penetration comes from the burning thermite.
Arethusa
The availability is silly as hell. Unfortunately, so is the concept.
Stev
<.<; YOUR concept is silly. Sir.
Arethusa
What.
Smiley
Zing. indifferent.gif
mfb
oooh, he got you good!

anyway. splat glue: not necessary, and not going to help even if it were. the glue will be burned away completely in the first second or so of ignition.

if you're looking for lethality, these rounds should suck. if you're looking to light things on fire, they should do the job (but will do it less well than an actual indcendiary grenade). actually shooting a person with them is pretty much a waste--they'll scream, it'll suck, but they'll probably survive and they might be able to keep shooting back at you. given that a WP grenade does 10L per round of contact, i'd say that these would do 4L per round, and that's only becuase i like the idea of lighting people on fire.

if you want to kill someone, use a bullet. if you want to light things on fire, use an indcendiary or WP grenade.

capsule rounds are far from useless--they're just not really useful for killing people. for KO'ing people without killing them? two narcojet capsule rounds are pocket jesus. for more fun, get some gamma-scop. expensive, but what it doesn't KO out right, it gives horrible modifiers to.

bullets are useless, too--if you're trying to use them to start your car. tools are generally most useful when used for their intended purpose.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Pthgar)
The Power wouldn't change, because all the penetration comes from the burning thermite.

The amount of thermite is still crucial to the penetration: the more of it is burning, the more heat it puts out and the more is melted by it.

Well-packed thermite will have a density of about 3.5g/cm^3, which will allow you to put less than 3 grams of the stuff inside the average heavy pistol round. You also need a starter mixture to set off the thermite (plastic triethyl aluminum if you can get it, some crappy low-tech solution if you can't) which will take you down to about 2 grams. With an amount that small, you'd be lucky to melt your way through 0.5mm of steel, and burns caused on humans would be very small in size. I mean, you're talking about an amount 1/500th the size of the basic unit for which you find stats in M&M.

You might get as much as 20-30 grams of it into a shotgun shell, but that's still 1/50th - 1/33rd the size of the basic unit. If your intention is to melt down medieval suits of plate mail these might be just the thing for you, but they'd be pretty useless for anything else.

Not to mention the general idiocy of the "Capsule Round". Filled with substances of such low densities, the effective range of any weapon loaded with them would be cut down to less than half and accuracy would be crap.

Oh, and neither the splat glue nor the magnesium serve any purpose there.

[Edit]mfb's post above is more helpful than mine. Also, if you really want to set things on fire with a gun, there are incendiary ammunition on page 38 of the Cannon Companion .[/Edit]
Pthgar
Eh, put a Shiawase Blazer under you Combat Rifle. One of the drawbacks with that though, gotta learn spray weapons.
Raygun
QUOTE (Arethusa @ May 6 2005, 07:24 PM)
What.

I think it was something about you not giving props to Nietzsche. smile.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Pthgar)
Eh, put a Shiawase Blazer under you Combat Rifle. One of the drawbacks with that though, gotta learn spray weapons.

Isn't there a rule whereby the use of underbarrel-mounted weapons can be defaulted to their linked weapon skill (ie Assault Rifle)? Or does that specifically apply only to grenade launchers?
Arethusa
QUOTE (Raygun)
QUOTE (Arethusa @ May 6 2005, 07:24 PM)
What.

I think it was something about you not giving props to Nietzsche. smile.gif

Heh. Yeah, well, most people in this country don't even know that is a Nietzsche aphorism. I might as well switch it to English and start claiming it's mine.

QUOTE (Fortune)
Isn't there a rule whereby the use of underbarrel-mounted weapons can be defaulted to their linked weapon skill (ie Assault Rifle)? Or does that specifically apply only to grenade launchers?

Only grenade launchers. It's somewhere in the CC; can't remember where.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Fortune)
Isn't there a rule whereby the use of underbarrel-mounted weapons can be defaulted to their linked weapon skill (ie Assault Rifle)? Or does that specifically apply only to grenade launchers?

The skill description of Launch Weapons says it's just underbarrel grenade launchers. There's no equivalent rule under the Flamethrower description.
Pthgar
Well, I didn't know that it was Nietzsche. I'm the product of a sci-fi/fantasy self education. Oh, and my useless history degree.
frostPDP
I object to history degrees being useless.

Unless you plan to teach or do some other such job. Then you're outta luck.
Raygun
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Heh.  Yeah, well, most people in this country don't even know that is a Nietzsche aphorism.

I fear you might be overestimating most people in this country. Most might have heard "Nietzsche" from A Fish Called Wanda. And that's only if they were paying attention. "Aphorism" is right out. smile.gif
Edward
What you really want is thermit rounds, there is no reason to put the thermit in a plastic capsule, considering that capsule is designed to exit the barrel intact you probably wont even light the magnesium.

A bullet made from compressed thermit with a bonding agent to hold it together (similar to the burning bars) would have an effect however, I would make it availability of thermit +4 with twice the base time to acquire and base its mechanics on incendiary rounds increasing the starting power by 3 and damage level buy 1.

As to the utility of capsule rounds, I have them made up custom using the cases from high-C plastic rounds and gama-scopolamine to load into my full ceramic holdout pistol giving me a very good chance of KO in a completely MAD safe package

Edward
lorthazar
I still like my DMSO/Pepper Punch/Hyper combo. The call shot to the eyes or mouth. Trust me the target is going to be in too much pain to do anything. And if he has a pain editor he is still hosed becuase the sinuses with run so badly or the eyes water so much he will be next to useless.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (lorthazar)
I still like my DMSO/Pepper Punch/Hyper combo. The call shot to the eyes or mouth. Trust me the target is going to be in too much pain to do anything. And if he has a pain editor he is still hosed becuase the sinuses with run so badly or the eyes water so much he will be next to useless.

It's not stealthy (the guy will be screaming in pain), requires a harder shot, and not lethal. Why use it, other than frag up mages non-lethally? It sounds like a less effective and more expensive solution than simply plugging the target with a bullet or a simple Narcojet dart. It also sounds like a metagaming solution to a problem (stacking modifiers) when a real-world solution (knocking the target out or eliminating the target with a bullet) would work better.

Not that such a capsule round wouldn't be fun to use, but it sounds a bit too complicated and too specific to use effectively.
Critias
I'm a fan of just, y'know, bullets. Cheaper, get the job done, aren't crazily fantastically unrealistic, aren't as easily traceable as some fancy schmancy custom round...
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Edward)
What you really want is thermit rounds, there is no reason to put the thermit in a plastic capsule [...]

The bullet will still need a jacket of some kind, to reduce barrel wear and so that there isn't a lot of iron oxide and aluminum powder residue left in the barrel after each shot.
Foreigner
A.E.:

Sounds to me like what Stev wants is a hollowpoint-style round with a plastic nose cap over the cavity containing the incendiary compound.

The best IRL example that comes to mind is the Glaser Safety Slug.

Glaser Safety Slug information

--Foreigner
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Foreigner)
Sounds to me like what Stev wants is a hollowpoint-style round with a plastic nose cap over the cavity containing the incendiary compound.

If you stuff something into the hollow point, especially something relatively dense and solid like a metal-based or plasticized pyrophoric substance, you're pretty much guaranteed zero-expansion in an unarmored (meta)human body, which means the bullet will go right through your target leaving very little or no burning agent behind.

That sort of bullet would flatten against any sort of serious body armor, and the minuscule amount of the incendiary substance inside the tiny cavity in the tip of the bullet would mean there's no chance it'd burn/melt it's way through anything more than a thin layer of cloth.

Unless you mean "hollowpoint" in a more generic sense, and basically what you're getting at is just a Glaser with the bullet filled with an incendiary mixture instead of the tiny metal beads. Which is basically the exact same thing as using a "Capsule Round", as commented on above, only it get rids of part of the ridiculousness by having a jacket that can handle being fired.
Raygun
QUOTE (Critias)
I'm a fan of just, y'know, bullets. Cheaper, get the job done, aren't crazily fantastically unrealistic, aren't as easily traceable as some fancy schmancy custom round...

But everybody uses those. What fun is it to shoot people with things that everyone else shoots them with? It's just gauche, I say.
frostPDP
I think the overall idea was not to be unique (although it was a cool concept) but that 10D damage listed in M&M. After all, relatively cheap mini assault-cannon rounds are fun!
mfb
not possibly gonna happen. not if you're making any sort of nod at all to realism.
mmu1
I don't see how (all other things being equal) you can even try to argue with a straight face that some bizzare home-made round should be more deadly than EX explosive...

What, a tiny bit of a burning substance is going to mess you up worse than an explosion inside your liver? I don't think so...
Kagetenshi
If it weren't so tiny it absolutely would (stuff burns through cars into the ground below, as you well know), but again, too tiny. Get a small cauterized hole and not much else.

~J
mmu1
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
If it weren't so tiny it absolutely would (stuff burns through cars into the ground below, as you well know), but again, too tiny. Get a small cauterized hole and not much else.

~J

Cars? What would I know about using thermite on cars? wink.gif
frostPDP
Thermite + Car = Fun. Well, this is why we brought it to Dumpshock, and it turns out "Yo soy correcto." I was right! Woot!
mmu1
Speaking of thermite, and weird weapons: In a game I'm playing in right now our group ended up taking a contract to take out a bunch of creatures (actually, we took a contract one one, and how were we to know there'd be three more... and that they'd have spirits... and that they were all magicians... but I digress) that had truly amazing regenerative powers - in fact, the only thing we've been able to find so far that did the job was burning them with thermite.

Now, given that our group at the time consistde of a street sam (my character), a rigger and a decker, guess who was the logical choice to get up close and personal and apply the thermite to the extremely resilient, highly capable regenerating magicians... To say he found it stressful is probably the understatement of the century, and he has sworn to be prepared just in case he ever has to fight something that isn't easily killed with normal weapons that he might actually get close to. (he'll probably be trying to get some thermite mini-grenades, which are the practical solution, but he's been traumatized, and will likely be paranoid on the subject for a while)

To that end, he plans to commission a number of specialized weapons, like so:

Imagine an 8" long hollow spike made from thin but high quality steel, an inch thick at the base, but tapering to a sharp barbed end over the last 3". It has a ski-pole like handle on it, and on the handle, a hand-grenade style spoon and a pull ring. The hollow spike is filled with thermite, and equipped with a short delay fuse. You pull the ring to get it ready, like you would a grenade, but it doesn't go off until you shoved it into its intended target. I think of it as the slighly updated version of the stake through the heart. smile.gif
mfb
heh. the best use for thermite i've ever had was marking a target for our rigger's sensors. the target was in the middle of a 20m sea of WP flames, which was itself under a jungle canopy, so our rigger couldn't get a thermo reading. he could damn well see the heat sig of the incendiary grenade i landed between the target's feet, though.
Magus
MMu
sounds like an improved version of the bangalor torpedo we used in the army. When improvising one in the field the engineers would take two razor wire stakes and in the middle lace it with C-4, wrap it with det cord stick a detonator in it unwind the wire taken from the claymore clacker and BOOM!!! Instant wire breach.
FUN!!!!!!!!

Kagetenshi
QUOTE (mmu1)
Speaking of thermite, and weird weapons: In a game I'm playing in right now our group ended up taking a contract to take out a bunch of creatures (actually, we took a contract one one, and how were we to know there'd be three more... and that they'd have spirits... and that they were all magicians... but I digress) that had truly amazing regenerative powers - in fact, the only thing we've been able to find so far that did the job was burning them with thermite.

Considering that we discovered this on-the-job, I still want to know what would have happened had we not brought it along. It was literally an afterthought to deal with possible blast doors.

~J
lorthazar
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ May 7 2005, 02:22 AM)
QUOTE (lorthazar @ May 7 2005, 02:13 AM)
I still like my DMSO/Pepper Punch/Hyper combo. The call shot to the eyes or mouth. Trust me the target is going to be in too much pain to do anything. And if he has a pain editor he is still hosed becuase the sinuses with run so badly or the eyes water so much he will be next to useless.

It's not stealthy (the guy will be screaming in pain), requires a harder shot, and not lethal. Why use it, other than frag up mages non-lethally? It sounds like a less effective and more expensive solution than simply plugging the target with a bullet or a simple Narcojet dart. It also sounds like a metagaming solution to a problem (stacking modifiers) when a real-world solution (knocking the target out or eliminating the target with a bullet) would work better.

Not that such a capsule round wouldn't be fun to use, but it sounds a bit too complicated and too specific to use effectively.

Well it would probably help that I use them in a sporting rifle from out side the facility and tag a secuirity guard or four on the opposite side the rest of the team is going in. Place is on alert alright, but now do to the screaming most of the guards are on the other end of the complex. This is usually done only on runs where sneaking in and out is too complicated for the two troll sammies.
Dissonance
What about Big D Temper Shells?

What, you don't like having to repair your gun and soak damage after a roll of 1 on a 1d6? Pussy.
Edward
Ok your right it needs a jacket of some kind but not the plastic ones used for capsule rounds but really that doesn’t matter just like eth difference between EX and EXEX doesn’t matter.

I still say the mechanics should be as incendiary rounds with a slightly higher damage code and level. As well as being very hard to make and very expensive (and hard) to acquire.

And now that I think about it, a higher chance of fraging up your gun.

Edward
SpasticTeapot
First, thermite is easy to make. It's just rust and aluminum; the tricky part is grinding them REALLY fine.
Second, a splatgun would work much better. Any PC with the "Fun with PVC" proficiency and access to a harware store can make a good-quality potato cannon that runs on C02, much like a paintball gun. (See here for a semi-automatic example:: http://www.xinventions.com/main/spud/pac6.htm) Then, load it with spheres of thermite and magnesium, held together and coated with with a small amount of lead, as well as a fuse attached to the outside. After it is shot, the ball would flatten on contact, putting the burning fuse in contact with the magnesium, and in turn activating the thermite. Range would be very short, but a thermite sphere with a mass equivalent to that of a potato can do a lot of damage.
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