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Wounded Ronin
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/l...ack=1&cset=true

QUOTE

The Los Angeles County sheriff's deputies who fired 120 rounds at an unarmed car chase suspect early Monday appeared not to have a coordinated plan and at times worked at cross-purposes, department officials said Tuesday after a preliminary investigation.

As a result, some deputies opened fire because they erroneously believed that the suspect had shot two colleagues, while others were firing because they thought the suspect was trying to ram officers, Capt. Ray Peavy said. 
 
The findings prompted Sheriff Lee Baca, who said Monday that he was reserving judgment on the deputies' action, to question some of their tactics, saying Tuesday that the amount of gunfire seemed excessive.

The shooting, which was broadcast repeatedly on TV newscasts across the country, also came under criticism from Merrick J. Bobb, who serves as the Board of Supervisor's special counsel on Sheriff's Department matters.

He described the deputies' response as disorganized and undisciplined.

"The fact that 120 rounds were expended indicates panic, lack of planning and an absence of control," said Bobb, who plans to examine the policy issues surrounding the case and report to the Board of Supervisors.

An unedited videotape of the incident obtained by The Times offered a clearer picture of what happened when deputies blocked in a white SUV they had been chasing through a residential area of Compton early Monday.

The tape shows that deputies fired several shots initially when the suspect, 44-year-old Winston Hayes, backed toward them.

That was followed a second later by a much larger burst of gunfire coming from deputies who had surrounded Hayes' Chevrolet Tahoe. The vehicle lurched forward a short distance down Butler Avenue, moving between two groups of deputies, who delivered a third barrage, with bullets flying wildly toward officers and into homes.

Hayes and Deputy Edward Clark were wounded. Clark was treated and released; Hayes, who was shot four times, remains hospitalized.

The video shows frantic deputies pointing guns at one another in apparent confusion, as one or more officers warn: "Watch out for crossfire!"

Baca said he is most troubled about the final round of gunfire, which he estimated to be two dozen shots. He questioned whether the shots were necessary because so many rounds had already been fired and Hayes' vehicle may have been disabled by then.



So, it turns out, after all, that a pistol *can* disable a car, just like in Shadowrun.

Uh...

Except you have to shoot it 120 times.
Kagetenshi
Just like a person, one shot with a .22 can be enough for any unarmored vehicle. It's just exceptionally unlikely that it'll hit in the very few places that that'll be enough for.

(I am assuming here that a .22 will penetrate an average hood. Is that off-base?)

~J
mfb
the problem's never been that a pistol can disable a car in SR. the problem is that it takes relatively few shots to do so. and that it's all-or-nothing; you either take the vehicle out in a few shots, or you can never damage it at all.
Critias
The whole clip's been dissected over and over again on Glocktalk and a few other forums I hang out at. Most of what 'disabled' the vehicle was the guy ramming into stuff over and over again throughout the duration of a long car chase (and then him getting shot a few times, and deciding to just get out and shut the engine off).

For those who've seen the clip, I think you'll agree it's not exactly a great example of anything positive, including what sort of 'realism' there is in Shadowrun's combat system. Were it a Shadowrun shoot out, all the basic Lone Star cops (who by default, as statted NPCs, get a 5 in their Pistols score, don't they?) would have aimed for a simple action and blasted a single 12S burst apiece at the bad guy, leaving him a smear of paste on the inside of his vehicle (regardless of the 'shooting at passengers' weirdness or not, that many high-skill-plus-combat-pool shots, complete with an extra -1 TN for aiming, would leave the guy with more holes than a leprous porn queen).

Instead, all these LEO's managed to hit with something like 3% of their shots, against someone who wasn't even shooting back. How often does that happen in SR?
Arethusa
Good work, LAPD! Shame o' the nation!

Kage: depends on what oyu mean by average. A lot of older cars are built tough enough that a .22 probably wouldn't get through. Newer cars, especially stuff like Saturns, not so much.
Crimsondude 2.0
It was LASD, not LAPD.

Also note that it was LASD because the the Comption Police Department was disbanded several years ago. They were fulfilling a policing contract.
Critias
Yeah. Though Compton's now reevaluating their decision to get covered by the county sheriff's and are looking into getting their own city police force -- at the time of this now-nationally-investigated incident, all these guys were county sheriff's, not LAPD.
Crimsondude 2.0
It's an easy distinction, though. LASD wear tan and brown. LAPD wears almost black navy blue. Also the shorthand is spelled differently. They are also called deputies instead of offficers. Finally, this happened in Compton and not the City of Los Angeles.

It's also interesting to note that LAC and L.A. are both statistically underpoliced by a significant margin (LAPD and LASD don't even come close to the number of officers per capita as the NYPD, let alone most smaller cities' PDs).
Critias
I'm not sure there's such a thing as LA (much less Compton, specifically) not being "underpoliced." Ahh, wait, here's a nice quote..

"We don't have any social problems here that a couple of thousand troops won't solve," Marilyn Shultz, Governor of Seattle, SR2 p. 270

Sounds about right for most of LA, doesn't it?
Grinder
The cops fired (assuming to the quoted text) 120 rounds. That seems to be a lot and increases the chance of hitting somerhing important of the car.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Critias @ May 12 2005, 01:58 PM)
I'm not sure there's such a thing as LA (much less Compton, specifically) not being "underpoliced."  Ahh, wait, here's a nice quote..

"We don't have any social problems here that a couple of thousand troops won't solve," Marilyn Shultz, Governor of Seattle, SR2 p. 270

Sounds about right for most of LA, doesn't it?

Yes.

However, LA makes up for a police shortage to a point with an assload of armed security guards.

I think it's telling that Chief Parker, grandfather of the modern-day LAPD (followed by Daryl Gates), based the LAPD on the USMC. Perhaps if it was in L.A. they'd have actually killed the driver.
hyzmarca
What this proves the most is that the basic street cop should default to 2 quickness insted of having a pistol skill.
It also proves that making Wallhacker resist 9M when when his buddy rule-o'-ones his called shot to the corp security guard is reasonable.

However, what it most proves is that police today need training in SUT.
Wounded Ronin
Yeah, I alway thought the Ruger Thunderbolt + Pistols 5 was something of a deus ex machina to make messing with the cops a relatively bad idea.
Arethusa
Yeah, it's never been anything but a silly contrivance.
Fresno Bob
I think 2060 cops would be very high trained, what with the advent of cyber and magic. Having cops that weren't too effective would mean that they would have to constantly be calling out the SWAT teams, which would be too inefficient. So they would just train the beat cops to the level of current SWAT officers. And SWAT officers would be like Navy SEALs. Thats what I think, at least.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
Yeah, I alway thought the Ruger Thunderbolt + Pistols 5 was something of a deus ex machina to make messing with the cops a relatively bad idea.

On the contrary, it makes them that much more fun to hunt.

~J
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
Yeah, I alway thought the Ruger Thunderbolt + Pistols 5 was something of a deus ex machina to make messing with the cops a relatively bad idea.

On the contrary, it makes them that much more fun to hunt.

~J

DOOOD, I can get a free Ruger Thunderbolt just by killing a cop!?

Crotchrocket's birthday is comming up. I'll kill two and get him one. biggrin.gif cyber.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Voorhees @ May 12 2005, 10:43 PM)
I think 2060 cops would be very high trained, what with the advent of cyber and magic. Having cops that weren't too effective would mean that they would have to constantly be calling out the SWAT teams, which would be too inefficient. So they would just train the beat cops to the level of current SWAT officers. And SWAT officers would be like Navy SEALs. Thats what I think, at least.

Are you serious?

Lone Star is a corp that pays its officers 20,000• a year (in Seattle), which is less than half the starting salary of the LAPD and almost half of the starting salary for the PDs of every major city today (since the nuyen:$ is 1:1). They usually only give discounts if a cop wants cyber or wait until they can confiscate it to install it in most of their officers. Training? Ha! Training costs money, and there is no purpose in spending more money on training, especially when you have pressure from the shareholders to cut costs and competitive pressures to remain the lowest-bidder for all of their policing contracts.

KE's only slightly better because they are focused on paramilitary security with the few (compared to LS) muni contracts as more of an afterthought.

Besides, LS goes into detail more (natch) than other sources, but Lone Star was never designed to emphasize skill and training so much as the brute application of as much force as possible in the shortest amount of time.
Sicarius
As for Lone Star training, as with real world police, I think alot of it is going to be determined by the individual officer, and so will remain the responsibility of the GM, especially to keep the PCs guessing.

Some times the Lone Star guard is a doughnut muncher just drawing a paycheck, but every once and a while it's a UCAS Army veteran who just couldn't find better employment.

Snd before someone says well the better trained are gonna be on swat or special teams, that's not always the case. You've gotta put your time in an organization to get that step up, just like today.

My brother did 9 years with Marine Force Recon, and could have owned his department's SWAT team. But he did 7 years without so much as a promotion.

Pity the 'runner who thinks he's defaulting to quickness 2.

dead.gif
Critias
Yeah, but a 9 year Force Recon veteran shouldn't be the statline you give to your "default" Lone Star Beat Cop, is it?
Sicarius
LOL

no, probably not. My point was, there is no such thing as a "default" cop (or anything else you might encounter I guess.) and I personally would avoid using a default, particularly with cops, because if Lone Star is going to show up, its going to be because the GM thinks they SHOULD show up, since so far as I know there aren't really rules for randomly determining a LS patrol.

Which is why if the PC is geeking innocent by-standers execution style outside the Krispy Kremes, you can bet that there's going to be at least 2 squad cars full of hardened veterans, and if they are on a mission, and just happen to get unlucky and screw up an electronics roll and set offl the alarm, it might only be a rookie with 6 months.

Defaults are more viable with other groups of likely PCs, like gangers or security guards or something, if for no other reason than because they are npcs which you INTEND the pcs to engage, rather than Lone Star, which is on the scene because of something the PCs have done.

At least for me.

Which reminds me, isn't there actually a Veteran LS archtype in one of the books? what's their pistol skill?

Either way, Pistol 5 is kind of absurd for an "average" cop, presuming one exists.
wagnern
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)


Lone Star is a corp that pays its officers 20,000• a year (in Seattle), which is less than half the starting salary of the LAPD and almost half of the starting salary for the PDs of every major city today

Lone Star pays its officers 20K a year?!?! Can we say CORUPTION? If the dog is hungery, you are going to have problems with him guarding the chicken coop.

You know, the more I hear of the 6th world, the more I think it might be best to just summon the Horrors.

"Ya I was a Lone Star officer, but I quit and became a inner city public school History Teacher for the pay raise and safty."
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (wagnern @ May 13 2005, 08:05 AM)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ May 13 2005, 02:17 AM)


Lone Star is a corp that pays its officers 20,000• a year (in Seattle), which is less than half the starting salary of the LAPD and almost half of the starting salary for the PDs of every major city today

Lone Star pays its officers 20K a year?!?! Can we say CORUPTION? If the dog is hungery, you are going to have problems with him guarding the chicken coop.

Yes.

QUOTE (Sicarius)
no, probably not. My point was, there is no such thing as a "default" cop (or anything else you might encounter I guess.) and I personally would avoid using a default, particularly with cops, because if Lone Star is going to show up, its going to be because the GM thinks they SHOULD show up, since so far as I know there aren't really rules for randomly determining a LS patrol.

Well, there is a Lone Star Patrol Officer archetype in New Seattle (113) (Pistols 3 (Thunderbolt 5), presumably to serve as... the default LS officer.

There is no veteran LS cop archetype. There are quite a few in LS and a couple in NS, but none like that. Well, there's a Detective... But there's only Patrol, Magician and Elite Officer (Pistols 5 (Thunderbolt 7)) in NS, but that's for FRT and SWAT, and Detective in SR3 materials. LS gives stats to each member of a SWAT team, a FRT Trooper, a DED Trooper, a Detective, Several mages, and several different types of patrol cops.
Grinder
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
LS gives stats to each member of a SWAT team, a FRT Trooper, a DED Trooper, a Detective, Several mages, and several different types of patrol cops.

Iirc the average street cop has unarmend combat at rating 2. That's weird.
nezumi
I have generally decreased the skills of all my NPCs. They do get kinda crazy, considering Shadowrunners are supposed to be pretty paramilitary. Guards have skill from 2-5, cops from 3-6, military from 4-8 (all that is not counting the periodic 'veteran').
Raygun
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
Lone Star is a corp that pays its officers 20,000• a year (in Seattle), which is less than half the starting salary of the LAPD and almost half of the starting salary for the PDs of every major city today (since the nuyen:$ is 1:1).

Hmm. According to the Sixth World wiki, it's 4:1 (UCAS) and 3:1 (CAS), though I'm not sure where that information is referenced from. Using that, the average Seattle LS cop is pulling down $60-80k a year. Considering a bit of inflation, that would make sense to me.

As far as skills go, I agree that it's a bit out of hand.
Grinder
QUOTE (nezumi)
I have generally decreased the skills of all my NPCs. They do get kinda crazy, considering Shadowrunners are supposed to be pretty paramilitary. Guards have skill from 2-5, cops from 3-6, military from 4-8 (all that is not counting the periodic 'veteran').

But 2 is just too less for a cop. 3 is ok imo. Most of my faceless ninja thugs npcs have all skills and attributes at 3 and they are still a challenge for my plaers.

@ Raygun: sounds good.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Raygun)
According to the Sixth World wiki, it's 4:1 (UCAS) and 3:1 (CAS), though I'm not sure where that information is referenced from.

I assume Crimsondude 2.0 meant comparing SR3 (2060) nuyen to the current (2005) RL USD. Consumer prices as given in the rulebooks suggest that their relative values are about the same.

There is no reason to assume that either the CAS or UCAS Dollars of the SR 2060s have any sort of direct relationship to the RL 2005 USD in terms of purchasing power, unless you think that the central banks of the two nations would work really hard to maintain their relative value the same (a horribly poor idea from a fiscal PoV).
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Raygun)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
Lone Star is a corp that pays its officers 20,000• a year (in Seattle), which is less than half the starting salary of the LAPD and almost half of the starting salary for the PDs of every major city today (since the nuyen:$ is 1:1).

Hmm. According to the Sixth World wiki, it's 4:1 (UCAS) and 3:1 (CAS), though I'm not sure where that information is referenced from. Using that, the average Seattle LS cop is pulling down $60-80k a year. Considering a bit of inflation, that would make sense to me.

As far as skills go, I agree that it's a bit out of hand.

The modern dollar and the nuyen are generally suggested to be 1:1, so when I say they may 20,000• to today's $40,000, it's like saying they make $20,000 compared to an LAPD starting salary of $40,000.
Raygun
Which, I agree, doesn't make much sense at all. Hence my suggestion that perhaps equating the purchasing power of the Nuyen to the current US dollar is not the best of assumptions to make. Perhaps it might be better to assume that the UCAS dollar is closer to the mark, while the average price of consumer goods has been marked up considerably by the giant, greedy corporations that produce them.

Just another way to look at it.
Arethusa
If every consumer product and service in the market suddenly cost 5 times more and salaries were not adjusted, the market would collapse cataclysmically. The $=• equation is an unrealistic design contrivance, but one of the somewhat more forgivable ones. I know I certainly prefer that to the developers taking a hand at market analysis, prediction, and design. After all, every other time they've tried, it's been nothing but a total fucking disaster. 'We started with millions and made trillions in a week,' anyone?
Fresno Bob
Well if you go by the skill ratings in SR3, rank 5 in an active skill is Professional. I would hope that LS officers could use pistols professionally. And I agree that its kind of a fiat to prevent players from going kill crazy, but its not as much a stretch as the "Millions to Trillions" thing.
Arethusa
True, but it's still pretty bad. Most police officers I've met are terribly trained. Most know next to nothing about the weapons they carry. Many are little more than uniformed thugs. Police officers are hardly the doubleplusgood 'finest' they're propagandized as. Knowledgable, trained, proficient, intelligent police officers are actually exceedingly rare.

Pistols 5 is definitely insanely generous for the average officer. Police training now, at starting pay double what it is in SR, rarely is more than a couple mags through a pistol and 3 shells through a shotgun to qualify and move on. Average officers are going to packing Pistols 2, if that. Diallo, what what?
Fresno Bob
Well, as I said, perhaps training standards have gotten a bit better as police now have to contend with magic and cyber, not to mention that Lone Star is trying to keep a contract, so there would be pressure to not suck.

And I don't really know many cops, but your description seems accurate of the ones I've run across.
PBTHHHHT
More 120 round fun!

QUOTE
Police Shoot Buffalo Escaping From Packing Plant
Monday Incident Mirrors Similar Shooting In 2003

POSTED: 11:29 am MDT May 10, 2005

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. -- Police Monday shot and killed five buffaloes that escaped from a meatpacking plant.


Instead of fleeing, the buffalo began grazing in a yard and police fired at the buffalo with semiautomatic rifles as each charged officers one-by-one.

"If five of them would have charged at once, I'm not sure we would have had enough manpower to kill all of them," Colorado Springs police Lt. Larry Laxson said.

The buffalo managed to get out when a truck driver didn't properly park his truck in the delivery chute at the G & C Meatpacking Plant, said plant owner Frank Grindinger.

Two homes were evacuated and police cordoned off several blocks.

By the time all five animals were shot, at least 120 rounds had been fired, a few that hit empty houses and a nearby car, Laxson said. The first buffalo took several shots in the head and "didn't even flinch."

"It was not a good ending. We did whatever we could to try to capture the animals without killing them," Laxson said.

Nearby resident Martha Muehl said she felt bad for the animals, but added people are the main concern.

"It's horrible, but it would have been even more sad if they had killed a person," Muehl said.

Grindinger, the plant owner, said six buffalo escaped in December 2003. Three were also shot by police.
Penta
I think that's a little harsh on most (RL) cops, Arethusa. Especially the uniformed thugs comment.

What I've always sensed, in regard to police shooting proficency:

Most cops leave basic training not great, but...decent with their weapons.

Unfortunately, they only recert once a year with their service weapon. Meanwhile, it's exceedingly rare for cops to actually *fire* their weapon in anger (believe it or not).

So most cops maybe started out with a 3 (acc to SR2 as of LS), and a 5 on their service pistol. However, their skill degrades, such that it reaches a 2/3 fairly soon.

Meanwhile, how does Diallo happen? (Not the incident, which I don't really want to argue about, but the shooting quality therein, or lack thereof.)

In SR, TN mods. Darkness, distance...I could see that making the situation difficult in re actually hitting something.

However, yes, a 47% (actually, 46.9%) hit rate is pretty bad.
Penta
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT)
More 120 round fun!

OK, this is more understandable. Your average pistol just can't take down a buffalo, at least not at range.

24 shots per Buffalo doesn't seem too odd.
hyzmarca
Perhaps Lone Star simply factors expected bribes and protection money into its salary policy the same way some resturants factor in expected tips when setting the sallaries of service personel.

Remember, its called a gratuity because it is gratuitous.
Either that or because the cop will use gratuitous violence on you if he doesn't get it.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Penta)
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT @ May 13 2005, 07:23 PM)
More 120 round fun!

OK, this is more understandable. Your average pistol just can't take down a buffalo, at least not at range.

24 shots per Buffalo doesn't seem too odd.

But they weren't using pistols according to the article. They were using rifles. Assuming that they were using 5.56mm they should have only needed two or three headshots.

If they were using big game rifles the they would only need one.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Raygun @ May 13 2005, 04:38 PM)
Which, I agree, doesn't make much sense at all. Hence my suggestion that perhaps equating the purchasing power of the Nuyen to the current US dollar is not the best of assumptions to make. Perhaps it might be better to assume that the UCAS dollar is closer to the mark, while the average price of consumer goods has been marked up considerably by the giant, greedy corporations that produce them.

Just another way to look at it.

Well, that's the way it has been done for years. I see no reason to change it for my own edification.

QUOTE (Voorhees)
Well if you go by the skill ratings in SR3, rank 5 in an active skill is Professional. I would hope that LS officers could use pistols professionally. And I agree that its kind of a fiat to prevent players from going kill crazy, but its not as much a stretch as the "Millions to Trillions" thing.

Yeah, but from a Knowledge Skill perspective a newly-minted lawyer who just passed the bar should have a 5 for each type of the law that they studied in law school. It's a screwed up system.

QUOTE (Arethusa)
True, but it's still pretty bad.  Most police officers I've met are terribly trained.  Most know next to nothing about the weapons they carry.  Many are little more than uniformed thugs.  Police officers are hardly the doubleplusgood 'finest' they're propagandized as.  Knowledgable, trained, proficient, intelligent police officers are actually exceedingly rare.

Wow, someone who shares my thorough distrust and hatred of cops and an appreciation that they do indeed seem to be woefully undertrained.

QUOTE
Pistols 5 is definitely insanely generous for the average officer.  Police training now, at starting pay double what it is in SR,  rarely is more than a couple mags through a pistol and 3 shells through a shotgun to qualify and move on.  Average officers are going to packing Pistols 2, if that.  Diallo, what what?

Yeah. Although you can look at the car chase shooting in L.A. from the other day. One of the officers managed to hit the driver as he ran out of the car with--it seems--one shot. Then he went and reached for a second gun and got blasted for it. Stupid fucker.

QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Remember, its called a gratutity because it is gratutious.
Either that or because the cop will use gratutious violionce on you if he doesn't get it.

Sounds like home to me.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Penta)
I think that's a little harsh on most (RL) cops, Arethusa. Especially the uniformed thugs comment.

In my experience, it's more than justified. I'm not saying all cops are bad people, or even that all cops are incompetent. That would be unfair. But the vast majority, I have found, inspire something less than confidence and forgot too long ago that their duty is to protect and serve the people.
QUOTE (Penta)
Unfortunately, they only recert once a year with their service weapon. Meanwhile, it's exceedingly rare for cops to actually *fire* their weapon in anger

In anger? Good god, I sure hope it's rare. The problem is that it's incredibly rare for cops to fire their weapons at all. Like, say, on a range. Which is why every time there's a police shooting, they almost always manage to miss more than they hitó which tends to be pretty dangerous for the people they aren't shooting at, let alone the people they're shooting at who may not deserve it. Recent examples:

Diallo
Stanley Miller
120 rounds at an unarmed driver.
120 rounds at buffalo.
A shooting in an urban neighborhood that netted 70,000 in property damage and two wounded bystanders.
A pregnant Oregon woman who was tazed for refusing to sign for a speeding ticket.

I stand by every comment I've made about our 'finest.'
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
But they weren't using pistols according to the article. They were using rifles. Assuming that they were using 5.56mm they should have only needed two or three headshots.

They were using 5.56x45mm AR15s. Ok, so 5.56x45mm isn't exactly the heaviest rifle round in the world, and buffalo are pretty tough. Considering they missed a fair bit, though, it's more indicative of a lack of ability and control of the situation on the part of the officers doing the shooting. Not to mention a shotgun with slugs probably would have been a better choice.
toturi
Pistol(Ruger Thunderbolt): 3(5) means he is proficient in pistols and can handle his Thunderbolt professionally.

Sounds right to me.
Arethusa
1(2) sounds more accurate to me. Save 3(5) for a SWAT team.
Fresno Bob
Isn't it impossible to specialize at 1/2? Unless you're allowed to specialize with 1 rank.
Arethusa
Far as I know, there's nothing that says you can't specialize from a skill of 1. Hell, the 1(3) you can get through canon character creation makes a lot less sense.
Fresno Bob
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Hell, the 1(3) you can get through canon character creation makes a lot less sense.

Expound.
Arethusa
During character creation, since you aren't using karma (BeCKS would just make too much sense), you can only specialize by pulling the skill down by a point and the specialization up by a point. If you do so with a skill of 2, you get a 1(3) specialization. I believe this appears in the books somewhere.
Fresno Bob
I must not be too good with the karma rules, because I don't know why that doesn't make sense.
Arethusa
Well, you're not allowed to specialize beyond twice your base skill once you get ingame and start paying for skills with karma. 1(3) can only happen with build points and priority skill points.
Fresno Bob
Ah, right right.
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