Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Use Street Index when buying gear at chargen?
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Umbrage
Does the street index of gear also apply when buying gear at character generation?
weblife
No.

Although, most GMs limit the availbility to 8 and the max rating to 6.

IE you can't buy rating 7 decrypter software, or an availability 24 Monowire Whip.
Nikoli
One exception.
If you use your starting 3D6x100 cash, you apply Street Index
Deuce
sometimes i wonder to myself...Myself i says, why not stick 'em with street index at generation...now THAT would make them respect some of those high cost toys.
Nikoli
But, then they points have less value.
If there is an item you don't want a character to have, don't let them start with it.
wagnern
Now if you are going to stick em with street index, why not make em pay to have that cyberware they bought installed? (poor poor samies)
Deuce
boy, if i did that, my player that usually does sammies would b**** even more about how adepts are more powerful than he is....ack.
Maimer
Here's something I generally do. Leave it up to the players. With the simple rule that whatever they can get, so can the bad guys. That generally tones things down pretty quick.
SpasticTeapot
Monowire whips are NOT overpowered for the price. For pretty much the same cost, you can get a dikoted claymore. A troll adept with a dikoted claymore (why a large SWORD is considered a POLEARM, I do not know) can easily deal base damage of 12D. This is just plain scary. Of course, I'm pretty sure that Dikote has an availibility of more than 8, but it's scary regardless.
And you can't forget APDS rounds, either. Although they, in themselves, are hardly game-breaking, the fact that they're usually made of things like sintered tungsten instead of brass or lead mean that they're candidates for dikoting. Of course, it would cost a fortune, but a PC with a sniper rifle and a dikoted APDS round would'nt likely need more than one. (Who can argue with 15D damage?)
FrostyNSO
QUOTE
And you can't forget APDS rounds, either. Although they, in themselves, are hardly game-breaking, the fact that they're usually made of things like sintered tungsten instead of brass or lead mean that they're candidates for dikoting. Of course, it would cost a fortune, but a PC with a sniper rifle and a dikoted APDS round would'nt likely need more than one. (Who can argue with 15D damage?)


Ooooh crap. Lets not let Raygun see that post. wink.gif

That is one helluva can of worms you opened with that statement, teapot.
Edward
The biggest advantage of a monofilament whip over a claymore (assuming big whopping troll dose the welding) is consealability, you cant hide a clamour, also the whip is very useful in the hands of a low strength character, but then so is a shotgun.

Edward
Deuce
i thought besides the concealabilty...the halving of impact armor kinda rocks as well with the whip....
SpasticTeapot
QUOTE (Edward)
The biggest advantage of a monofilament whip over a claymore (assuming big whopping troll dose the welding) is consealability, you cant hide a clamour, also the whip is very useful in the hands of a low strength character, but then so is a shotgun.

Edward

Yes, but claymores are a bit easier to get a liscense for. Plus, all you need to do is find a theatre playing LotR, and duck in. You'll be invisible amonst the cosplayers.
Also, the halving of impact armor is nice, but a troll with basic bioware or adept powers can easily be dealing 16D or more. And you get the nifty bonuses pertaining to barriers and the like. That said, I'm going to try my hand at an effective whip-using adept, perhaps a dwarf. It's pretty hard to ignore 13 dice rolled in conjunction with a weapon that already does 10S in the first place. (An added bonus is found in the fact that, by showing this to the GM, he's a lot more likely to allow me to use the Hand of God.)
And there's still the problem of the big-shot PC who carries around a sporting rifle loaded with teftlon-coated dikoted APDS slugs. They'd be roughly fifty nuyen EACH, but 10D damage with the ability to ignore light armor and no inherent explosive properties is pretty scary. And because they're hunting weapons, it's easier to use the "goin' huntin'" exuse.
Glyph
The problem with using Street Index at char-gen is twofold.

First, characters like street samurai, deckers, and riggers already require too much math for adding up all of their gear, computing their Essense, etc. Making them have to multiply everything by a different percentage, for each piece of gear, would take it past the point of ridiculous.

Secondly, like most house rules, it messes up game balance by penalizing certain types of characters far more than other types of characters. If someone is playing an adept, or a shaman with high Attributes and skills but no foci, then they don't suffer at all from this rule.

I guess it's fine if you want less sammies and techies, and more awakened characters, but you might wind up with practically nothing but awakened characters. And if you try to restrict the numbers of awakened characters, then the mundanes will complain about how screwed over and weak their characters are. Personally, I think it's a bad idea.
Modesitt
QUOTE
Here's something I generally do. Leave it up to the players. With the simple rule that whatever they can get, so can the bad guys. That generally tones things down pretty quick.


Yeah, my GM enforces that idea pretty strictly. The other players and I have agreed that we're not even going to just guns, we're going to use fuckin' KNIVES. Not even a survival knife, just knives. We'd punch 'em, but that deals str(M) Stun and a knife does str(L), so it'd be stronger.

Also, we're not going to buy any cyberware or magic or be anything but humans. After all, if we have nothing, neither will the NPCs. In addition, we're all spending our skills on the most worthless skills we can. So we're taking combat skills, like Eye Gun, Oral Gun, Oral Strike, Suborbital Piloting, and similar things. This way, the NPCs will also be gimped and be defaulting to quickness when they bust out the pen knives. We'd use something bigger, but I'm worried he might give us some power, so the other NPCs would get it too.

So what if this means we can't do anything but knife fight other people? If we use anything bigger, so will the GM!
Edward
i still say the trew power of the mono whip is in the hands of a weakling. Skill 2(4) 2 points of combat pool and the chance of hurting yourself is quite low, but in spite of your str 2 you are able to cut down samys with the best of them. (thinking typical claw samy without close combat)

Edward
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Deuce)
boy, if i did that, my player that usually does sammies would b**** even more about how adepts are more powerful than he is....ack.

Well, tell him that if physads are so powerful, and he's getting so bent out of shape over power, why dosen't he play one ?

I mean, in addition to the whole snort snicker thing about physads having more raw power than sammies at chargen.

Few things annoy me more as a GM than players whining about really stupid things like that. Power level is really a nerve for me. It's so easy to min max and make an ubercharacter in Shadowrun that there's really no excuse for complaining about power levels. Whenever I make a character I actually try to make weak characters so that I have more of a challenge as a player and I need to play tactics up to the hilt rather than rely on stat bonuses to defeat the opposition.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ May 17 2005, 07:10 PM)
Monowire whips are NOT overpowered for the price. For pretty much the same cost, you can get a dikoted claymore. A troll adept with a dikoted claymore (why a large SWORD is considered a POLEARM, I do not know) can easily deal base damage of 12D. This is just plain scary. Of course, I'm pretty sure that Dikote has an availibility of more than 8, but it's scary regardless.
And you can't forget APDS rounds, either. Although they, in themselves, are hardly game-breaking, the fact that they're usually made of things like sintered tungsten instead of brass or lead mean that they're candidates for dikoting. Of course, it would cost a fortune, but a PC with a sniper rifle and a dikoted APDS round would'nt likely need more than one. (Who can argue with 15D damage?)

Heh, I actually hate APDS. nyahnyah.gif When I make a PC, I no longer buy APDS ammo at chargen. I restrict myself to Regular.
Squinky
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
QUOTE (Deuce @ May 17 2005, 06:13 PM)
boy, if i did that, my player that usually does sammies would b**** even more about how adepts are more powerful than he is....ack.

Well, tell him that if physads are so powerful, and he's getting so bent out of shape over power, why dosen't he play one ?


I think it was somewhat of a joke. I think we all agree that adepts have much more growth potential than a cyber-character, and that cyber-characters generally can start the game with a lot more power to begin with....even using only basic cyber...

I would play an adept, and have thought about it (even made up a few attempts). Not for "Powergaming" but for the fact that sammies can get a little depressing because there essence and body are all gone when you start the game ussaully, and adepts have unlimited growth in magic points. Its equivalent to a sammie being able to spend karma on more essence (and getting that essence filled with cyber for free). So if your looking for a character that grows withthe game, sammies are not the best choice...But I've found that I'm just hooked on cyber-ware....Even the lure of magical power isn't enough to turn me away from the sheer coolness implants...
nick012000
QUOTE (Squinky)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ May 18 2005, 08:47 PM)
QUOTE (Deuce @ May 17 2005, 06:13 PM)
boy, if i did that, my player that usually does sammies would b**** even more about how adepts are more powerful than he is....ack.

Well, tell him that if physads are so powerful, and he's getting so bent out of shape over power, why dosen't he play one ?


I think it was somewhat of a joke. I think we all agree that adepts have much more growth potential than a cyber-character, and that cyber-characters generally can start the game with a lot more power to begin with....even using only basic cyber...

I would play an adept, and have thought about it (even made up a few attempts). Not for "Powergaming" but for the fact that sammies can get a little depressing because there essence and body are all gone when you start the game ussaully, and adepts have unlimited growth in magic points. Its equivalent to a sammie being able to spend karma on more essence (and getting that essence filled with cyber for free). So if your looking for a character that grows withthe game, sammies are not the best choice...But I've found that I'm just hooked on cyber-ware....Even the lure of magical power isn't enough to turn me away from the sheer coolness implants...

Well, Street Sams can grow following chargen. They spend their karma on skills and attributes directly, and nuyen on getting their old stuff taken out and better stuff put in.

At the moment, my street sam is getting a Rating 1 Dermal Sheath and a Smartlink installed, both used Alphaware (Smartlink in Cyberleg), which will leave him with .12 Essence.

When he saves up about 80k, he will go in for another round of cybersurgery, get his Muscle Enhancement 1 taken out, upgrade his Dermal Sheath to rating 2, have another set of Improved Hand Razors installed in his other hand, get both sets of hand razors dikoted, get Rating 3 Strength Enhancement for his legs installed, and get Rating 4 Muscle Augmentation and Rating 1 Muscle Toner implanted. He'll probably also get a set of Climbing Claws installed as well. All of this is Used Alphaware. After all of that, he'll have .02 Essence, assuming nobody botches the surgery.

If he can find a Delta clinic...
John Campbell
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
(why a large SWORD is considered a POLEARM, I do not know)

Large two-handed swords have more in common with polearms than they do with single-handed swords, handling-wise. Especially the Western ones, which frequently have a blunt ricasso reaching as much as halfway down the blade, for use as an extended grip in close fighting.

I have a lot of complaints about the way SR3 divides up the weapons skills, but the classification of claymores as pole arms is not among them.

QUOTE
Yes, but claymores are a bit easier to get a liscense for.

Check those legality codes again. Licenses for claymores and monofiliment whips are equally difficult to acquire. It's impossible to get either one.
Juggernaut125
Here's a Street Index question. SI is described as the added costs for using 'shadowy' means of obtaining hard to get items for the SINless. (But of course I'm paraphrasing). So, what if a customer wants to buy something legitimately. For example; Enchanting Gear is not illegal as far as I know. So if one of my runners wants to buy Enchanting Gear in a regular fashion, do they pay the Street Index price? Or the regular price and wait the full amount of time.
Fresno Bob
QUOTE (Modesitt @ May 17 2005, 07:03 PM)
The other players and I have agreed that we're not even going to just guns, we're going to use fuckin' KNIVES.  Not even a survival knife, just knives.  We'd punch 'em, but that deals str(M) Stun and a knife does str(L), so it'd be stronger.

Did you sleep through math class, buddy? M(3 boxes) damage would bring them down faster than L(1 box) damage. Even though its just Stun, they'd still be down. Finish them off with your knife while they're unconscious.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Voorhees)
QUOTE (Modesitt @ May 17 2005, 07:03 PM)
The other players and I have agreed that we're not even going to just guns, we're going to use fuckin' KNIVES.  Not even a survival knife, just knives.  We'd punch 'em, but that deals str(M) Stun and a knife does str(L), so it'd be stronger.

Did you sleep through math class, buddy? M(3 boxes) damage would bring them down faster than L(1 box) damage. Even though its just Stun, they'd still be down. Finish them off with your knife while they're unconscious.

You may have missed that it was sarcasm. That was a response to all the "if the PCs have it, so do the NPCs" argument of balance. The idea being, if the PCs don't have anything, neither do the NPCS.
Modesitt
QUOTE
Did you sleep through math class, buddy?


I didn't phrase that very well. Rephrased for clarity, it would be: We would punch them, but that's better than using a knife, so we're going to use knives instead.
Fresno Bob
Ah. Sarcasm works better when worded better.

And...I kind of realized that after I posted. But I was too lazy to change it.
Jrayjoker
QUOTE
  Here's a Street Index question. SI is described as the added costs for using 'shadowy' means of obtaining hard to get items for the SINless. (But of course I'm paraphrasing). So, what if a customer wants to buy something legitimately. For example; Enchanting Gear is not illegal as far as I know. So if one of my runners wants to buy Enchanting Gear in a regular fashion, do they pay the Street Index price? Or the regular price and wait the full amount of time.


Street index is a multiplier to cost, availability is a TN to roll with the appropriate skill (usually etiquite) to acquire the item. Divide the time by successes against the avaialability, and that is that.

If I made the characters use street index costs at chargen I would make them roll their etiquite and require at least one success in order to have the cyber at startup. Talk about your street level games.
Squinky
QUOTE (nick012000)


At the moment, my street sam is getting a Rating 1 Dermal Sheath and a Smartlink installed, both used Alphaware (Smartlink in Cyberleg), which will leave him with .12 Essence.


Eh? what use would that be?
Aku
For those runners with no arms that have to shoot from the hip, quite literally?
Modesitt
QUOTE
Eh? what use would that be?


The smartlink system is more than just what's in your hand. According to pg 36 M&M, a Smartlink system takes up .5 ECU and .25 essence if installed in a cyberlimb, regardless of whether that's a cyberfoot or a cyberhand. I'm not exactly sure how that works with buying smartlink accessories piecemeal as it doesn't say what parts are installed in the cyberlimb.

So you have an induction pad in your hand and the rest of it in your leg or head as the case may be.
Juggernaut125
QUOTE (Jrayjoker @ May 26 2005, 08:38 AM)
QUOTE
  Here's a Street Index question. SI is described as the added costs for using 'shadowy' means of obtaining hard to get items for the SINless. (But of course I'm paraphrasing). So, what if a customer wants to buy something legitimately. For example; Enchanting Gear is not illegal as far as I know. So if one of my runners wants to buy Enchanting Gear in a regular fashion, do they pay the Street Index price? Or the regular price and wait the full amount of time.


Street index is a multiplier to cost, availability is a TN to roll with the appropriate skill (usually etiquite) to acquire the item. Divide the time by successes against the avaialability, and that is that.

If I made the characters use street index costs at chargen I would make them roll their etiquite and require at least one success in order to have the cyber at startup. Talk about your street level games.


But that doesn't answer the question. Why should a character HAVE to purchase an item at the Street Index price if it's perfectly legal to buy? I'm not referring to character generation. I'm talking about in game play. Using the enchanting gear as an example. why should a player have to pay 20000 nuyen for a perfectly legal item?
Fresno Bob
Because they're buying it on the DL?
Jrayjoker
Certified credisticks are kind of like bearer bonds, if you went into L-mart and tried to buy a shotgun with bearer bonds you might have little luck. If your characters have a SIN then they can have the benefits of purchasing legal items at the listed costs without the street index. Otherwise, street.
Angelone
My gm tried the street index on chargen once. We ended up with 4 pysads and 4 magicians. We actually did lot better than usual, love npc deckers, and didn't have to look had to find an initiatory group.

For post chargen buying, I love fake SINs, who would know that Hans Ulrich reclusive magical theorist is actually Krista Hirsh street mage and shadowrunner disguised using a physical mask spell. Hell you don't even need to be a mage just have your mage cast it on you until you call and have them drop it.
Rev
Legal items should have street indexes very near 1, often below because you are buying stolen or junked merchandice of unknown quality. The street index on a legal item should never be much above 1 unless there is an unusual circumstance limiting supply (eg inside bug city), or said item has been made usefull in an illegal way (eg a telepone with a hacked account because a sinless guy can't get a normal account).
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (Rev)
Legal items should have street indexes very near 1, often below because you are buying stolen or junked merchandice of unknown quality. The street index on a legal item should never be much above 1 unless there is an unusual circumstance limiting supply (eg inside bug city), or said item has been made usefull in an illegal way (eg a telepone with a hacked account because a sinless guy can't get a normal account).

They typically do.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012