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Gambitt
Ive got to admit im a little freaked out by Lukes posts, not in a morally right or wrong way. Just in a culture shock way, which strenghtens my view that SR is a lot closer in real life that side of the pond than it is where im from (england)
The White Dwarf
Just going to point out that wearing some kind of armor isnt out of line at all. They make securetech and armored clothing lines for a reason. That kinda stuff would show up at K-mart and mall outlets and junk. Wearing armor is not the issue. But assuming your character would wear layres of significant armor all the time is something else. Clothes and some kinda jacket, weather permitting, is perfectly normal. FFBA, a Jumpsuit, a Jacket, and a Riotshield.... ok now were just being obnoxious. Its not that the characters have to make themselves vunerable or anything, its that they are playing people in a world that dont always walk around in tank mode. Theyre no more likley to be attacked on the streets than anyone else, unless they really pissed off a corp or something last run in which case theyre likley at a safehouse not out buying groceries. Its all relative to the situation, but the thread was for gear always carried on you for anything not just runs, so rifles and big armor have to go, imo.
Wounded Ronin
Just to be a rebel compared to the rest of you...

...I walk around totally unarmed. Should I be assaulted with knives, I'm probably fooked.

Then again, even if I had a 1911, the knife-wielding aggressor would still be able to take me out since he has the initiative. Gun or no, close range suprise attack from behind with a blade still makes you equally dead. So, actually, I don't think that it makes that much of a difference whether or not I have a firearm.

The firearm would only help me a lot if I were going around attacking people. Not so much for self-defense.
Penta
Gambitt: Don't be scared of all of us.
The view of guns is different depending on where you are. In general, where the state is mostly urban, guns are looked upon poorly in a legal sense. Where it's rural, not quite. Where it's stuck in the strange middle, all hell breaks loose. Suburbia, it depends where the Suburb is.

Socially? It's still an urban/rural divide, no matter where you are. Guns are looked upon poorly in urban areas, almost without exception. Rural areas, not really. Suburbia is the battleground, and here the reactions vary on where you are, both in terms of state and actual location. (Hawaii and Alaska need special classification. Both are pretty light in absolute population, but Hawaii is very densely populated (I don't live there, but from vacations I recall Oahu being much more densely populated than the other islands, and the whole state being generally densely-packed. Would I be right?), and Alaska is very sparse in popuation; If you go north of Anchorage, it's almost unpopulated.)

Now, to relate this to SR:

The UCAS still has what was the Second Amendment, as NAGNA notes, but I can't see guns being very well liked in areas with anything higher than D security ratings, in cities. Rural and wilderness areas are going to have more guns, but it really is still a faux pas to carry them everywhere in any way that gives a hint. Carrying rifles everywhere is a serious faux pas, I would imagine.

Seattle, for the record, is going to be *very* unfriendly to guns outside of the Barrens.

The CAS...Well, if I say anymore, I'd start a flamewar.

The tribal areas are going to be very, very odd. I doubt the modern social rules would apply. CFS is going to be insane, in much the same ways.

Now, an unrelated question:

Is FFBA machine-washable?
Thomas
QUOTE (Penta)
Gambitt: Don't be scared of all of us.
The view of guns is different depending on where you are.  In general, where the state is mostly urban, guns are looked upon poorly in a legal sense. Where it's rural, not quite. Where it's stuck in the strange middle, all hell breaks loose. Suburbia, it depends where the Suburb is.

Socially? It's still an urban/rural divide, no matter where you are. Guns are looked upon poorly in urban areas, almost without exception. Rural areas, not really.
<deleted>


The CAS...Well, if I say anymore, I'd start a flamewar.


I'm sure you can still get a gun rack for your truck window in the 2060s biggrin.gif
Besides, you'll know you're in Oklahoma when every tenth car has had the turn signal on for more than 5 miles. grinbig.gif
Thomas
And, just to stay on topic.
One of my chars just had to list his carried equipment:
Quote
Humm... Well, the pocket sec is in the left shirt pocket, the encrypted memory is in the left front pants pocket, along with a passcase containing 2 swipe cards, 30-80 nuyen in scrip and a Trauma slap patch. Right front pants pocket has some keys on a ring with the car remote and two credsticks, one certified and one gold. On his belt is a pouch with a pocket flashlight, pager, and cellphone. If you went low there's the hold-out pistol in an ankle holster above the left shoe, inner side.
End quote

The "is FFBA machine washable" is a good question too.
Krazy
It ought to be, kevlar is machine washable (cold water, mild deturgent, hang dry) so it better be (ever smelled coolmax that hasn't been washed?)
I'm from saskatchewan originaly (and a redneck to boot) and out of town carring a weapon of some sort is generally acceptable, (there's always a rifle in the tractor) but thats more for animal control than anything else. The main reason for cities to frown upon weapons is the "the cops will handle it" mentality, that an hour from town just can't have. But I digress, I'd have to guess that if conceled carry is an option in the SR world, a lot of people are going to take advantage of that, even if it is just a taser (something canadian citicens can't have) and given the large number of hold-out /light pistols listed in cannon, I'm sure the market is larger than it is now. (the number of small revolvers and automatics in production is quite small)
Wounded Ronin
If someone wears something tight and warm, such as a bondage suit or FFBA, all the time, I sometimes slap them with TN penalties to social rolls due to BO.
Smiley
How often have you had to slap bondage suit pentalies on PCs?

Weird.
Setthoth
Lets see. Armored Jacket, collapsable baton, pocket computer, cell phone, some cash, shoulder slung tote bag, RCD. Now in the van.....
Typhon
wow only 2 kilos ... jees my pistol weighs 6.75 kilos .... and I use two of those guys (I like to think that the 8 strength I have is what lets me lift the 13lbs of gun with each hand for any amount of time smile.gif )
but yeah on the topic of 2 kilos ... I guess I'd go with my Wrist phone , one Certified Cred stick and a walther , course I suppose 1.5 kilos of C-12 and Timers would work too ... but my group tells me I should blow things up less ...
nezumi
Gambitt, also remember Luke is posting from Texas. Texas is only part of the US on a technicality nyahnyah.gif

Being in DeeCee, I *KNOW* I pass people with guns. They're big dudes in dirty clothes who stick in small groups called 'gangs'. It feeds into what Penta said. I have friends who used to pass guns in fifth grade in school. However, I don't think my carrying around a gun would be a real bright idea (not counting laws against it), since it is an offensive weapon. I would wear personal armor more often, if it was available, cheap and comfortable, like in SR>
Gambitt
Thx for that Penta and Nezumi, gave me a load of info that i had kind of wondered about. Its has similarities in the UK, where in the countryside a farmer may well have a 12 guage shotgun stashed away. Also gun crime with gangs is reasonably high, and i feel for the unarmed police, but if hell breaks loose the armed response teams dont mess about.

As to the original post, my sami had a concealed cyber holster in his legs... do the pistols he carries in his legs count against the 2kg weight allowence? wink.gif
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Smiley)
How often have you had to slap bondage suit pentalies on PCs?

Weird.

Well, I had a friend who wrote an NPC who was always in a bondage suit, so...
Shockwave_IIc
I'm also from the UK, and frequently (about 70%) am carrying a weapon on me (Extendable Baton), mostly because i walk home alone from work at shitty hours. Though i very rarly get started on, and then only be "townies". I also know that should more then 2 start on me i'll be running as there's a good chance it will be getting take off me if i tried to fight them, and i'm not wnting to be on the receiving end of it.
Mongoose
QUOTE
Food for thought: in the state of Texas, approximately one out of every 500 people that you see on the street in a given day are legally carrying a concealed handgun. You pass a lot more than 500 people at your average mall. How many did you see that were armed?


I'm rarely in areas with lots of people, but is spot "suspect" conceals on a pretty regualr basis. On an average trip to the mall, I'd say I spot a few people who tweak my "might be packing" gauge, but don't get close enough to know. I'd say every 20 trips to the grocery store, I walk past somebody who's defiantely packing.
Minneasotta started issueing "on request" conceal carry permits 6 or so years ago, so I doubt its as common as for Texas, but Minneasottans do like guns. A lot. A guy with a concealed cary permit shot a bouncer at a bar just down the street from me last month.
In Chicago, I used to see concealed ARMOR on a semi regular basis. At the grocery store. Off duty / undercover cops, I'm sure, if only because the people wearing it seemed out of place for the neighborhood.
But as a SR character, I'd have a better INT score than average, and complimentary dice in skills related to this sort of thing.

QUOTE
ever smelled coolmax that hasn't been washed?


LOL- well, since I wear almost nothing else during the summer cause i bike all the time, I have to say yes. Its not that bad, it dries so fast nothing really grows in it. Anything with padding (crash armor, helmit liners, gloves) is another matter, so I think real armor would get nasty. Then again, who knows what sort of nano-deposited anti-bacterial quick-dry compounds they would have in the future? There's already a nano-scale silver particle coating for plastic cutting boards that would work greak on kevlar...
Mortax
Depends on the Char.

Mortax: Armored duster, ducktape, zipties, multitool, credstick, 5 m length of small steel cable, and cellphone.
In a bad neighborhood, maybe a gun and a bit more armor.
Then again, initiated vampire mages don't need a whole lot of gear. smile.gif

Quicksilver, well, he is the definition of paranoid, I mean the guys house is booby trapped. And yes, he has multiple sets of armor. So he is one of the dumb pones that is always armed ect.

Angelise: Cat shamen. about 5 kilos of makeup. Maybe ff1 or an armored leather coat. cellphone

Chun: Ummm, he has implanted monowhip and ares squirt. So, armor and some random stuff. See Mortax.

Srg. Hartman: When he was a troll street sam: typical random stuff, lighter, preaditor, skillwire chips, god chip (damn winternight....) and armored jacket.
After becoming a Dzoonoqua: cellphone, preaditor, armored jacket, random stuff.

Phyrewalker: Phonix shaman: about five lighters, small bottle of kerosine, ff1, and cellphone.
Smiley
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
QUOTE (Smiley @ May 20 2005, 12:42 AM)
How often have you had to slap bondage suit pentalies on PCs?

Weird.

Well, I had a friend who wrote an NPC who was always in a bondage suit, so...

Please tell me it was a hot elf ninja chick.

Even if it's a lie.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Smiley)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ May 20 2005, 07:06 PM)
QUOTE (Smiley @ May 20 2005, 12:42 AM)
How often have you had to slap bondage suit pentalies on PCs?

Weird.

Well, I had a friend who wrote an NPC who was always in a bondage suit, so...

Please tell me it was a hot elf ninja chick.

Even if it's a lie.

You want a hot elf ninja chick with BO?
Krazy
Gross, stink on ya, and then break your neck. Mortax, is it a house rule of yours that dzoonoqua can be inteligent? It was my imression that only humans could retain their intilect when infected with hmvv and became vamps or nostefaru. Or am I way wrong?
Mortax
You'd have to ask the gm.
It was prolly a house rule, that gm does it a lot. I'm not complaining. It was a fun char. smile.gif
Crusher Bob
iirc wendigo are orks that have hmvv and they are intelligent, and banshee are elves with it, and they are intellgent.

Of course given that even the 'normal' trolls seem to have trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time (~50% with INT 1), then turning into a dzoo-nu qua (sp?) will not do much for your betterment opportunities.
Smiley
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
QUOTE (Smiley @ May 20 2005, 10:45 PM)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ May 20 2005, 07:06 PM)
QUOTE (Smiley @ May 20 2005, 12:42 AM)
How often have you had to slap bondage suit pentalies on PCs?

Weird.

Well, I had a friend who wrote an NPC who was always in a bondage suit, so...

Please tell me it was a hot elf ninja chick.

Even if it's a lie.

You want a hot elf ninja chick with BO?

Yes please.
Toshiaki
QUOTE (Adarael)
Lightest eqipment list I've ever seen a character go on a run with?

A broom.

No, seriously.

So I'm not the only one to have a player go to town with a broom.

Of course, I should have seen this one coming. One of my players has her character, Noh-face, hanging out at a local Shinto shrine during a lot of her downtime. The character is an initiated physad, specializing in polearms. Noh-face had just hit Grade 2 and picked up Centering. Half-joking, I said that since the local priests make her sweep the shrine grounds so often, she could take Sweeping 6 as a Centering skill. Everybody laughed and the decker's player nearly choked on his Coke when he saw the zeal with which the physad's player wrote it down on her character sheet. In short, a good time was had by all and the incident was forgotten about. Several real months, and around a year of game time passed.

Except by the physad's player. As a story element, Noh-face doesn't like to bring weapons onto shrine grounds. The PCs had just done a major run, and had heat bearing down on them. As the group got ready to split up and lay low, I called for a round of Perception checks. Even with the huge number of collective dice that hit the table, no one managed to notice that they were being tailed. The players all looked at their low rolls and started asking if anyone had any Karma Pool left. All of it had been spent during the run. Then, they took one last look at each other, said a couple of stereotypical movie lines (the kind that always preceed characters dying) and went there separate ways. I get everyone to tell me where thier characters are going and then the nastiness started.

The goons were meant to be a moderate challenge to the wounded group of PCs. I didn't want anyone to die, but I wanted to let them know that they were being hunted (since it was going to drive the next leg of the campaign). However, I also figured that the group would have stayed together. The PCs are wanted alive, and I figure that a break-out session could be good for the next game, so I wasn't worried. The goons take the sammy while he's hanging at his favorite bar (he never was very good at laying low after a run). The combat mage, having managed to avoid almost all of his drain and still having a few elemental services left decides to fight the group of them, and gets wounded something fierce. When they went to get the decker, we ended up with a pretty funny scene, which helped ease the mood out somewhat (this was said with the decker holed up inside of his bathroom):

"If you don't fight, we won't kill you." --Head Goon
"Do you have a lot of guns?" --Rigel
"Me personally, or all of us together?" --Head Goon
"Umm...you personally." --Rigel
"Nope, just one." --Head Goon
"Oh. Okay." --Rigel
"I am the mage who just geeked your mage, however." --Head Goon
"Ahhhh...snap. Gotcha. What about the rest of your friends." --Rigel
"Oh hell yeah. They're a goddamn walking armory." --Head Goon
"You get good benefits? Hows the pay?" --Rigel
"Oh yeah. 3 weeks paid vacation, medical, dental, 401K...wait! Why am I telling you this?" --Head Goon
"Does your employer need a new decker? I kinda broke his old ones. A few too many hits of the ol' hammer. Just don't shoot me." --Rigel

Then, we get to Noh-face. The goons show up and tell her that they are holding the rest of her team hostage and will kill them if she doesn't go peacefully. To the other players' dismay, Noh-face says that if the goons tell her where the other PCs are, she'll let them leave town safely. I politely remind the player that Noh-face makes a point of never being armed on shrine grounds and she gives me one of the biggest shit-eating grins I've ever seen. A few more taunts go back and forth, then initiative gets rolled. Noh-face goes first, but just barely. I ask her what Noh-face's first action will be and she responds "I'm going to center with my broom and kick the shit of these guys." On her first initiative pass alone, Noh-face took down the heavy street sammy and got all the dirt off the shrine's back porch.

I come to find out later that Noh-face's player had been waiting for me to try disarming her during a run so that she had an excuse to grab a broom out of a closet, since she first gained Centering. Heck, she had even put Karma into Broom, bringing it up to an 8 by the time this happened.
Mortax
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
iirc wendigo are orks that have hmvv and they are intelligent, and banshee are elves with it, and they are intellgent.

Of course given that even the 'normal' trolls seem to have trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time (~50% with INT 1), then turning into a dzoo-nu qua (sp?) will not do much for your betterment opportunities.

This troll was high int and willpower, so that helped. I think he used something similar to the rules for becoming a ghoul.
FrostyNSO
I wear a level IIIa vest under my gear every day (have extra carriers so I can wash them smile.gif), and when I get home after 12 hours, the first thing I want to do is get the damn thing off of me.

I find the idea of characters wearing their armor 24/7 to be just absurd. Sure, maybe you throw it on when you go to get groceries, I can see that, but sitting on the couch eating your morning beerio's? I don't think so.

edit: Beerio's are cheerios with beer instead of milk, just to clarify.
Smiley
FFBA isn't as bulky or uncomfortable, though. It's like a second skin. I imagine it's like wearing spandex or UnderArmor (no pun intended). It may bug after a while, but it beats a bullet between the shoulder blades.
Eyeless Blond
Plus it's kind of hard for us to imagine really being genuinely afraid to go out during the day, because none of us live in a warzone. Maybe we should ask people who live in Iraq how they'd feel about wearing flexible, clothing-like armor all day.

Again, though, what I was really looking for was lightweight, general-use items that are versetile enough that a runner would carry them everywhere but don't take up an appreciable amount of weight. So far the list of good ideas seems to be:

Poc Sec
multitool/swiss army knife
lighter
flash pak (dunno if this one is really all that versetile)
pocket flashlight (eyelights work here)
Pen
timepiece (Math SPU works here)
Low light/thermo goggles (as shades, naturally; eye mods work here)
Credstick (either certified or fake, type and balance depends on character/situation)
duct tape?
bubble gum
A couple nutra or granola bars to apease the super-thyroid and the symbiotes.

Any other good ideas?
Smiley
Then add the fact that Shadowrunning is frought with occupational hazards and and PC might have a crosshair on him or her at any given time. I know I'D be armed and armored all day, every day.
Arethusa
And what do you do when the cops pull you over for a busted tail light? What do you do when you need to walk into a public building? Walking everywere loaded for bear is stupid. It's paranoid, and paranoia gets you killed. Whether you're a spy or a criminal or professional killer (or, hell, all three), it doesn't matter: your greatest asset is your ability to adapt.

Every piece of equipment you carry is a liability. Everything that sets you apart from the guy next to you is dangerous. You do not ever carry more than you absolutely need. Carrying a gun doesn't simply make you safer; it also puts you in more danger, and every time you pack, you need to be damn sure the benefits outweigh the risks. Same applies to everything else you carry.
Smiley
That's the kind of thing I don't have to worry about too much, living in a state that permits concealed carry. Yes, walking into a city building carrying a weapon is stupid. But every piece of equipment is by no means a liability. Adaptation and blending in will only get you so far. When that fails, then what? You'll be dressed and equipped like an average joe, with nothing but your johnson in your hand. Always be prepared. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and get shot 20 times and dumped in the sound because you don't have it. Remember, by canon, you can get permits for pistols and armor is legal. As long as you're not trying to carry your weapon into a municipal building or the airport or something, I don't see a problem.

EDIT: Paranoia keeps you alive. Complacence gets you killed.
nick012000
QUOTE (Arethusa)
And what do you do when the cops pull you over for a busted tail light? What do you do when you need to walk into a public building? Walking everywere loaded for bear is stupid. It's paranoid, and paranoia gets you killed. Whether you're a spy or a criminal or professional killer (or, hell, all three), it doesn't matter: your greatest asset is your ability to adapt.

Every piece of equipment you carry is a liability. Everything that sets you apart from the guy next to you is dangerous. You do not ever carry more than you absolutely need. Carrying a gun doesn't simply make you safer; it also puts you in more danger, and every time you pack, you need to be damn sure the benefits outweigh the risks. Same applies to everything else you carry.

"It isn't paranoia if they're really out to get you."

You always carry a weapon on your person. If you're going somewhere that weapons aren't allowed, you either leave it with the doorman, or you pay one of your contacts a few hundred nuyen.gif to accompany you, and stand around outside holding your gun.
Mortax
QUOTE (Smiley)
FFBA isn't as bulky or uncomfortable, though. It's like a second skin. I imagine it's like wearing spandex or UnderArmor (no pun intended).

Um, as someone who has to were spandex for 30-40 hours a week of training, I can tell you I'm not planning on wearing it around the house. When I'm flipping or holding strength positions on rings, it keeps everything where it should be. Walking around my apartment, it would just be fragging anoying.

Also, if someone is going after you in you're home, bomb, poison or sniper are the most probable methods, and body armor is unlikely to save you from that. The bomb maybe, if it's small. And most corps won't go for small.
Smiley
But it's not going to be as irritating as wearing level IIIa body armor all the time. It won't be as protective, either, but it's just a matter of how far you want to let your guard slip.
Angelone
Kinda easy since I'm currently playing a female mage, but here goes.
Purse
Lighter
Hairspray
Pocket Sec.
A credstick
Some cash
Breath mints
Extendable baton
Narcoject pistol
Pack of cigs.
Shades

The lighter and hairspray can be used as a flamethrower, and aren't out of place. The cigs. are for when I'm staking a place out. Someone hanging out on a corner smoking is hella less suspicious than someone just standing around, plus they are a fairly cheap bargaining tool for squatters.

Armor's always good to have, but with this character I perfer the spell, quickened and masked, it's lot harder to notice than basically anything.
Critias
QUOTE (Mortax)
Also, if someone is going after you in you're home, bomb, poison or sniper are the most probable methods, and body armor is unlikely to save you from that. The bomb maybe, if it's small. And most corps won't go for small.

Depends on where your "home" is, and what you mean by "come after you." When your Redmond back-up apartment has a gang of drunk orks kicking in the door looking for loot, maybe you'll be happy you sleep with a Predator in your lap, y'know?

I can see keeping some armor fairly close by, and a weapon handy, at more or less all times as being very reasonable for some Shadowrunners. I know people who live like that IRL (cops, mostly), and they aren't ultra-paranoid professional killers living in the inherently violent (random attacks are worth being afraid of, not just corp hitmen) SR future.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Angelone @ May 24 2005, 12:26 AM)
Armor's always good to have, but with this character I perfer the spell, quickened and masked, it's lot harder to notice than basically anything.

Er, except for the physically glowing energy field part, yes? The armor spell is slightly less obvious than running around with a foghorn screaming "I'ma mage! Geek me first!" but not by much. biggrin.gif
Critias
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
QUOTE (Angelone @ May 24 2005, 12:26 AM)
Armor's always good to have, but with this character I perfer the spell, quickened and masked, it's lot harder to notice than basically anything.

Er, except for the physically glowing energy field part, yes? The armor spell is slightly less obvious than running around with a foghorn screaming "I'ma mage! Geek me first!" but not by much. biggrin.gif

Actually, the foghorn and screaming is less obvious. There's probably nutjobs doing that sort of thing on street corners all the time. If you've got the Armor spell, too, people know you're the mage.
Eyeless Blond
Well keep in mind that the armor spell can be cast on someone *else*, and it really should be, for exactly this reason. Put the Armor spell on the physad; he's likely got some Bod to soak the bullets, and you get to hide behind his meatshield butt. smile.gif Meanwhile you carry around a computer shell, put a fake datajack on the front of your skull, and pretend to be the decker (or *really* be the decker, if you like. biggrin.gif)
toturi
Or cast it on the big troll adept with the Vindicator, then hide. They can try to geek the troll "mage" and die or just die anyway.
Angelone
Grr... Early morning > than me. I forgot about the glowing field, we don't do it that way. In our game it affects whatever unarmored clothing you have (including synth/leather), and it's self only. As for the geek me I'm a mage factor spells in general are harder to notice when they go off, but you basically have to do the hokey-pokey cast em.
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