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Patrick Goodman
Well, I had about one bad day on my honeymoon, and it was the day I popped in here to see what was going on. Ther resounding negative energy hit me so hard that I spent a good portion of the day thinking about what I was doing to myself.

It only take one time being told that I'm delusional, however, to convince me that I don't need to be here. So I'm leaving. I'll still be around DS, but this is probably the last time I'll be posting to this particular forum.
Nythrun
I am sorry to that, and thank you for such breadcrumbs as you were able to slip under the NDA.

Enjoy your honeymoon and for heaven's sake if not your own, take a Dumpshock sabbatical.
Wounded Ronin
Arright, man. Well, thanks for the info you did give us. I appreciate it greatly. I hope you have an awesome honeymoon.
Starglyte
Thanks for the info. I hope you will still update your blog, but if not, I understand.
Congrats on your marriage.
Pthgar
That's really too bad, if I could say something to change your mind I would. The negativity may be a temporary phenomemon. Your posts have contributed to improving the tone on the forum and the lack of your posts will be felt.
Solstice
Holy crap dude it's a forum get over it. If you let that mess with your honeymoon you have serious mental issues. It's not like we killed your dog or something. Aside from your obvious hypersenitivity, congrats on your marriage. Hopefully your better half is the strong one.
Critias
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ May 19 2005, 06:43 PM)
Well, I had about one bad day on my honeymoon, and it was the day I popped in here to see what was going on. Ther resounding negative energy hit me so hard that I spent a good portion of the day thinking about what I was doing to myself.

It only take one time being told that I'm delusional, however, to convince me that I don't need to be here. So I'm leaving. I'll still be around DS, but this is probably the last time I'll be posting to this particular forum.

No shit?

Maybe you shouldn't have logged on during your honeymoon. And maybe you should switch to decaf, while you're at it.

Patrick, you seem like a good guy. You seem like you care about Shadowrun. Your mistake is also seeming like you care about Dumpshock, and the people here. You apparently took it upon yourself to become "that guy," taking it upon himself to preach to the masses about the coming glory of SR4, defending the dev guys, explaining what you could without violating NDA, etc, etc, etc. Like Nightfire, the Ares rep. hanging out with a bunch of Shadowrunners, in SR1. You became the guy involved in SR4, the face of it, whether you knew you were or not. Every comment about SR4 that was negative, you took as an insult. Every comment about the game company that was negative, you took as a slap in the face. Every question someone had about the quality of what was around the corner, you let wrack your nerves before your wedding day. Every doubt anyone had, you took as someone doubting you, personally.

Get over it Mr. Goodman. Understand that we're uptight about our favorite game changing, understand that when they argue sometimes grown-ups say mean things to and about each other, understand that it's just the fucking internet so nothing anyone says is worth getting worked up over, understand that this is how people talk on-line, and pull your head out of your ass long enough to NOT LET THIS STUPID SHIT OVERFLOW INTO YOUR HONEYMOON, FOR CHRIST'S SAKE.

Go have a drink. Then check your priorities. Then see if a single god-damned thing any stranger on an internet forum could ever possibly say is worth this sort of drama. My magic eight ball tells me "fuck no." I'm sorry to see you go -- the on-line SR community, such as it is, needs as many intelligent people as it can get -- but if you're letting this crap get to be so serious to you that you're getting on-line during your honeymoon and letting it bug you, it's obviously for the best you take a break. A long one.
fistandantilus4.0
For what ever the reason, I'm sorry to see you go. Thanks for what you tried to do.
frostPDP
Patrick,

I don't really know you. About all I know about you from your forum posts is that you really like Texas and hate that Atzlan got a peice of it. That's it.

What I do know, however, is that you took a huge risk to get us info. I don't know what particular post set you off - I don't know if what they said was justified. I do not know to what this statement is in reference to. This aside, to call someone delusional (if I can spell it) is a huge insult and has to be backed up if you seriously intend to push that issue. I doubt many people can argue with what you playtest - Its like science, once there's proof of something there's proof of it.

Many people here - Myself included - Are somewhat nervous over possible changes and screw-ups. Some of us, sometimes myself, don't want our favorite character archtype to change. I like Mages the way they are, I feel many changes are not necessary but I also recognize they can turn out for the best. IF they are done right. You are making sure, by being a playtester, they are. What you leak is still your opinion of how it works, but you have something to back it on.

There are arguments over how Geases work, how useful they are, and other crap about them. They clearly exist, are Canonical - but some people find different uses, some enjoy them more than others. Some reject them completely. That's fine. But they DO exist as canon for SR3 - So differing opinions can be tolerated. Sometimes people strike when they are afraid and it seems this might be a case of you being called something you don't deserve because someone is scared of change.

What you should do, however, is ignore them. Simply say "As far as I've seen, I'm not, and I've seen more than you." They have no argument to counter this unless they are a fellow playtester. They can say "Well how could this be?" and you might not even know (or be allowed to say due to the NDA) and could respond "I don't know...But it works. I played it, it works better than SR3 did, and so you need to chill." Its very hard for people to argue.

I hope you don't go. Not because I'm a great friend or admirer or anything - Like I said, I don't know you. It does seem, however, that you have put a lot of yourself into this and I know that quitting doesn't become of someone with your reputation (and from the other posts here, you have earned a lot of respect.) You have an opinion - And that earns my respect as well. If you choose to go, Blessed Be and I wish you continue working with and playing SR all you can take. I hope, however, you stick around and contribute.

Think of it this way - When SR4 comes out, your "delusions" will be cleared up. Then at least people can argue based on some sort of facts, not their own conjured conceptions of things which, if I am not mistaken, is somewhat delusional of them.
Eldritch
Holee crap batman! You took time from our honemoon, to check out what we're saying. And you let it spoil on of the days, that should be amongst the bes tin your life?!?!?!

What, smile.gif Did you think we'd magically transform into a bunch of little angels, converts to the new Holy SR4? You've been here long enough to know better.

Sorry to see ya go. But enjoy your time with your fiance - shes a hellua lot more import than this place.

Critias
QUOTE (Eldritch)
Sorry to see ya go. But enjoy your time with your fiance - shes a hellua lot more import than this place.

I think we're allowed to call her his wife now. What with them being on a honeymoon and all.
Eldritch
biggrin.gif Oops, yer right!

Hehe, sorry!
Penta
<pats Eldritch on the head> We're all dopey some days.smile.gif
Penta
<pats Eldritch on the head> We're all dopey some days.smile.gif
Grinder
Thanks for the info you'd given us so far smile.gif

But don't let the negative postings here affect you in any way. Take it as what it is: an expression of some people you don't know personally. So don't take it too serious what they're posting here. People are always afraid of coming changes. wink.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
Yeah, right. Because he was the one who was called a poo-flinging monkey.

Poor baby.
Edward
Patrick, don’t go, its only going to get more negative with out somebody to say “don’t worry, iv seen it and it will be good”.

And there must be some amusement factor in the way we extrapolate pages and pages of contradictory rules from 15 lines of FAQ.

Always remember, nobody hear actually noes what we are talking about and if anybody says that the only person that actually has an inside track and was kind enough to give us some extra hints is in any way a bad person or poorly informed they are the one that is deluded.

Edward
Grinder
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
Yeah, right. Because he was the one who was called a poo-flinging monkey.

Poor baby.

Haven't read all the posts, so i didn't know. Whoever did so: sarcastic.gif
SirBedevere
Glad you're not leaving DS Patrick. As for the SR4 thread, don't worry about it. If todays news is tomorrows fish and chip paper (sorry don't know what the equivalent would be in the States), todays forums (or should that be fora?) are tomorrows fading magnetic charge or whatever.

Think of the important things in life, and this isn't one of them. Take a break, enjoy life, enjoy your newly wedded bliss biggrin.gif

When the SR4 ho-haa dies down, DS will be what it always has been, a bunch of people talking about Shadowrun and moaning. Either moaning about Shadowrun or moaning about the moaning! smile.gif Sometimes it's constructive, sometimes it's not; but it's what we do here.

Whatever you do, you can't please all the people all of the time grinbig.gif
NightHaunter
Don't let the bastards grind you down.
I have faith.
weblife
Unmoderated public boards, will always have excessive flaming and personal insults going on. Its a shame to let it get to you, I liked the posts of yours that I've read.

Its kinda funny though, to see the same flamers that went across the line of common courtesy, apologizing and admitting fault, now that their protests have had a real impact on someone elses life.

Not to seem all holy or anything, but I'd really like if the tone on these boards improved. Even if just a little.

Have a good one Patrick.
nezumi
Hope you feel better later, Patrick. You really did get us a lot more info than anyone else associated with this (perhaps even Bull!) and I think we all appreciate it. It's not nice to shoot the messenger. I think things will change a lot come August. At minimum, people will appreciate what you brought to us, even those who don't buy SR4.


That said, if you're reading this on your honeymoon, you need a boot : P I at least made it the whole week only checking e-mail.
Gambitt
Patrick, i suppose im a little like you, and i dont look in this section of the forums much anymore. There are some cool people in here, but certain people, for example Solstice come out with comments like :
QUOTE
Holy crap dude it's a forum get over it. If you let that mess with your honeymoon you have serious mental issues. It's not like we killed your dog or something. Aside from your obvious hypersenitivity, congrats on your marriage. Hopefully your better half is the strong one


Well i just dont know what to say...... what a comlete shit for brains. Im really, really ashamed to even be a member of these forums when people come out with bullshit like that. I am not suprised at all that you are staying out these threads. Hope to catch your posts in other sections.
Tanka
I'm honestly surprised at half of the responses.

"It's only a message board! You shouldn't take the internet seriously!"

Why not? If somebody can make a living off the internet, why shouldn't it be taken seriously?

If laws can be made to regulate what goes on when online, why shouldn't it be serious?

If people can be killed because of minor squabbles on the internet, why shouldn't it be taken seriously?

There's a fine line between flaming and offering your opinion. I believe that people have crossed that line several times too many, and it got to Mr. Goodman.

Everybody has their threshold, and you guys happened to trample all over it during his honeymoon. At least have the heart to apologize and try to keep from doing it again.
Gambitt
I wouldnt even bother trying Tanka, they will just quote you, flame you troll you and come up with " its an open forum, its fine to say these things, and you are wrong" type of dialogue. Its not about SR4 for them, more a case of how they can abuse people, whilst at the same time saying "look, im winning the arguement, and at the same time being offensive to them... im so superior"
Your post just gives them fresh ammunition.
Tanka
QUOTE (Gambitt)
I wouldnt even bother trying Tanka, they will just quote you, flame you troll you and come up with " its an open forum, its fine to say these things, and you are wrong" type of dialogue. Its not about SR4 for them, more a case of how they can abuse people, whilst at the same time saying "look, im winning the arguement, and at the same time being offensive to them... im so superior"
Your post just gives them fresh ammunition.

I could care less if they do. I'm not one of those people that lets somebody get flamed for no reason.

Mr. Goodman was doing this for free, and they apparently forgot that he owes us nothing.

He did it because he wanted to. Not because he had to.

And, apparently, some people don't bother remembering that because they think the world owes them something.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Edward @ May 20 2005, 02:54 AM)
Patrick, don’t go, its only going to get more negative with out somebody to say “don’t worry, iv seen it and it will be good”.

Are you kidding? That was fuel on the fire. He was able to tell us that in his opinion it was still all good, but thanks to the NDA he was completely unable to back that up with a shred of evidence. As noted it's not his fault, but to think that saying "trust me, it'll all work out" would help…
QUOTE
Everybody has their threshold, and you guys happened to trample all over it during his honeymoon. At least have the heart to apologize and try to keep from doing it again.

Bullshit. We didn't make him log on and check the boards, we didn't dose him with Laes to make him forget that that's caused frustration for him in the past, and we didn't make him try to defend SR4 without the merest scrap of a shield because everything he actually knows he can't tell us. More importantly than any of that, we didn't make him take this personally from the get-go.

I consider it deeply regrettable that he spent time on his honeymoon stressed out about this, but this is not something that other people did to him.
QUOTE
Mr. Goodman was doing this for free, and they apparently forgot that he owes us nothing.

Damn skippy. And most of us didn't ask him to do it, so we owe him just as much.

~J
Gambitt
I totally agree Tanka, im on your side. But they will just attempt to tear the post to shreds, like i say posting in this forum is a waste of time when a certain select few decide ohh look i have a new target to attack.... lol i posted too slow.. i see the sharks circling spin.gif
Tanka
My problem is that you people refuse to be sorry about causing him distress.

You could at least apologize for being such ignorant jackasses and then move on in the world.

Or, as is apparent, you can scream "IT AIN'T MY FAULT HE CHECKED" and then go on believing that your opinions never cause anybody a single ounce of distress.

Get over yourselves, please.
Kagetenshi
No, get over yourself. My opinions do cause people distress on occasion. It's regrettable. But that is not, repeat not, in and of itself something worthy of an apology.

People hold opinions. Sometimes other people take offense. That does not mean it is the burden of the first group to cater to the second.

~J
Gambitt
I did warn u tanka nyahnyah.gif
Kagetenshi
You warned him about a lot of things. As far as I can tell, you never warned him about being wrong.

~J
Tanka
Actually, the fact of the matter is that he took time out of his honeymoon to check the forums and (maybe, just maybe) answer a few calm questions about the new system.

And he did it for free.

I have no problem with people stating their opinion.

But when people belittle something they don't fully know and attempt to say "ZOMG ITS GOING TO SUCK!!!11" and then move on to bash the one guy that's trying to spread at least a modicrum of understanding to us people who only know what's released in the FAQ, then it's just useless flaming.

You want to state your opinion on SR4? Fine.

But at least don't flame about it. At least be calm and thoughtful instead of "this sucks" or something even less useful.

These are half the reasons I barely check DS anymore. People refuse to acknowledge the fact that somebody else may be right, or their opinion just as valid, or even that they just don't know all the facts. And because of that, people begin flaming each other over useless bits of conversation and nothing actualy fruitful ever happens.
Demonseed Elite
I stepped back from this forum too, though more quietly.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (tanka)
Actually, the fact of the matter is that he took time out of his honeymoon to check the forums and (maybe, just maybe) answer a few calm questions about the new system.

And he did it for free.

He did, and I appreciate the sentiment. I'd prefer it if it hadn't caused him distress. The fact remains that no one asked him to do it, and that therefore no one else is responsible for the timing of the distress. As for the presence of the distress at all, well, I'll get to that.
QUOTE
I have no problem with people stating their opinion.

But when people belittle something they don't fully know and attempt to say "ZOMG ITS GOING TO SUCK!!!11" and then move on to bash the one guy that's trying to spread at least a modicrum of understanding to us people who only know what's released in the FAQ, then it's just useless flaming.

You want to state your opinion on SR4?  Fine.

But at least don't flame about it.  At least be calm and thoughtful instead of "this sucks" or something even less useful.

Which is what I've seen for the most part. There have been occasional useless anti-SR4 flames, but they're usually derided from all sides and fade into obscurity quickly. Frankly, most of the flamewars I've seen in the past week or two have been clashes caused by people who just can't believe that anyone critical of SR4 might actually be using the evidence we've been given to arrive at their opinions. Perhaps there's a lot of abuse I've missed somewhere?
QUOTE
These are half the reasons I barely check DS anymore.  People refuse to acknowledge the fact that somebody else may be right, or their opinion just as valid, or even that they just don't know all the facts.  And because of that, people begin flaming each other over useless bits of conversation and nothing actualy fruitful ever happens.

Ah, irony.

~J
Garland
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
I stepped back from this forum too, though more quietly.

And managed to do so without a dramatic goodbye note, too, it seems.

I'm sympathetic to PG; like it's been said, he took a crap job without any way to protect himself. It was nice to have someone "in on" things to at least yammer at, since we're not really being fed info any other way.

But starting this thread was not a good idea. It's whiny, like a suicide note. "Oh, you all are gonna miss me when I'm gone, and then you'll be sorry."
Pistons
I may be the only one, but I can tell you that I certainly haven't wanted to post in here, nevermind whether I could or not. What I thought amusing were the cries of people claiming that "development is ignoring us"... and then proceed to spout negativity, as if that would be encouraging. (Not that the negativity does anything but make me want to shake my head, really, but it doesn't exactly promote a desire to be vocal either.)

In the end, I personally don't care if people hate everything about the development of this game with the heat of a thousand suns. The only thing I do care about is keeping the posting environment at least open to friendly debate, and lately it's been tipping into decidedly unfriendly territory. Am I saying you can't voice your (dis)approval? No -- but I'll ask those of you who've already made up your minds to at least let others form their own opinions.

As this thread is not serving any further purpose but starting a flamefest, and is only tangentially related to SR4, it is now closed.
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