Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Hauling the load
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Nikoli
An average human (Str 3) can carry up to 15 KG or 33.06934372 lbs before suffering the effects of a "light" wound.
Am I alone in thinking this is nucking futs?
Fresno Bob
Have you ever carried around that much weight for an extended period of time?
Nythrun
How about for a few combat turns, and it doesn't matter if the weight's a backpack or a 2m davenport?
Nikoli
Point is, the weight calculation is off by a bit I feel.
It's not just about weight, but about distribution as well.
A poorly made chainmail shirt weighs in at 15 lbs, I used to run around all day in one and not notice because of distribution.

Also, they list 90 rounds of HP ammo as 24 LBS, at 347.5 grains per ounce, that's 7000 grains per pound. Heavist pistol round I could find a weight for, Colt .45 (a fair approximation of a HP round) is 250 grains according to one manufacture. 90 rounds at 250 grains per is 2250 grains or just a little of 3 LBS. someone wanna explain how Predator-3 magazines (empty) weigh in at 7 LBS a piece?
Thomas
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Point is, the weight calculation is off by a bit I feel.
It's not just about weight, but about distribution as well.
A poorly made chainmail shirt weighs in at 15 lbs, I used to run around all day in one and not notice because of distribution.

Also, they list 90 rounds of HP ammo as 24 LBS, at 347.5 grains per ounce, that's 7000 grains per pound.  Heavist pistol round I could find a weight for, Colt .45 (a fair approximation of a HP round) is 250 grains according to one manufacture.  90 rounds at 250 grains per is 2250 grains or just a little of 3 LBS.  someone wanna explain how Predator-3 magazines (empty)  weigh in at 7 LBS a piece?

Just a note - 230 to 300 grains is a bullet weight, not the entire shell.
Nikoli
so, there's 21 lbs give or take the 6 magazines floating around somewhere in casing? that makes no sense either.
Fresno Bob
Most people maintain that the weights in SR are pretty messed up.
Arethusa
Guys, this just in! Water is wet!

It's not like it's a secret that SR's weights were quite obviously drawn up by people with mental difficulties. It's not a secret that Mike Mulvihill has trouble tying his shoes. It's not a secret that very, very little of SR3 was actually done right. Come on, this isn't exactly shocking news.
Nikoli
a 2 lb cellphone I can forgive, I remeber the motorola bricks in the 80's. but come on, 24 lbs for 90 bullets plus 6 magazines? There anyone around that worked for FASA that can explain this? Or Fanpro and explain why they didn't fix this?
Thomas
There's no sense in it. SR's weight system is off. I was just making a statement on a subject I have RL experience with - I handload .45 ACP, typically 230 grain JHP or 300 grain lead over 9.5 grains of powder and a magnum primer.
No flames intended or invited, just a statement.
<late edit>
I see others have chimed in.
RangerJoe
Hmm... maybe I'll send the powers that be an electronic balance as a pre-SR4 gift.....

or maybe just a shiny new bathroom scale. Who needs precision...
Krazy
I agree that weight distrobution is a problem, the gear haulers that are in sota 2063 are good, (and which I figured were already a part of camo full suits which most of my players wore) 30 lbs in a load bearing harness is much diffrent than 30 lbs in your cargo pockets. I dunno, I just make characters tell me where they are keeping their gear, and mostly ignore weapon weights for guns, or just take the heavier of the gun or ammo. or I just make it up. who knew that glocks would become so previlant and light. (yes, I know when Glocks were put into production)
ShadowGhost
We play that the weight of any firearm includes one full clip/magazine/cylinders of regular ammo.

On the plus side, it also means that people aren't going to carry around 200 rounds of ammunition on them... so they use it a little more wisely, and don't have to come up with an explanation of where they keep 20 clips of spare ammo.
Arethusa
Of course, no sense in noting that 210 rounds of ammunition is just 6 assault rifle mags in a bandolier and one in the weapon.

In real life, people who kill other people for a living tend to go a bit better prepared than the average Counter-Strike player.
Krazy
yeah, funny how long ammo lasts in SR, compared to RL. of course most real life battles don't involve ten shot bursts divided among three or four targets. more like ten shots kinda pointed at one target.
Critias
QUOTE (Voorhees)
Have you ever carried around that much weight for an extended period of time?

Hahahahahahahahha.
TimeKeeper
QUOTE (Arethusa)
In real life, people who kill other people for a living tend to go a bit better prepared than the average Counter-Strike player.

If my sig wasn't already used in memory to Country Dick Montana, I'd use this.

Maybe I'll use it on another board...

Anyway, I'm pretty sure my mother can attest that 7 clips (including the one in the rifle) and an M4/M16 do NOT weigh 210 pounds. That's almost as much as me.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Point is, the weight calculation is off by a bit I feel.
It's not just about weight, but about distribution as well.
A poorly made chainmail shirt weighs in at 15 lbs, I used to run around all day in one and not notice because of distribution.

Also, they list 90 rounds of HP ammo as 24 LBS, at 347.5 grains per ounce, that's 7000 grains per pound. Heavist pistol round I could find a weight for, Colt .45 (a fair approximation of a HP round) is 250 grains according to one manufacture. 90 rounds at 250 grains per is 2250 grains or just a little of 3 LBS. someone wanna explain how Predator-3 magazines (empty) weigh in at 7 LBS a piece?

Perhaps SR armor is so advanced that puny 20th century ammo isn't effective and they have to use heavy 1000+ grain ammo. It would explain the absurdly puny damage code for light and holdout pistols.
Edward
Without adding complicated rules for load distribution the amount you can carry is not so far off, 15KG in a backpack will reduce the efficiency of an average human being at physical tasks, not so much memory recall so making t +1 to TN for physical activities would make more sense than the effects of a light wound.

If you want to make allowances for location then try this as a house rule. Clothing and armour +0.5, backpack, contents of backpack and contents of combat webbing *1.0 everything else *1.5.

It makes a little lese sense with the higher loads that cause you to take wounds every so often. If you assume the average soldier today has strength 4 and body 4 half a days march with full kit on his back would leave him unconscious.

The listed weights for most items in SR are far to heavy, part of this is because technology advanced and the weights where not corrected (phones), the gun weights are just stupid and not even internally consistent. For example all clips weigh .75kg, but holdout pistols that use these clips weigh .25kg.

Edward
Eyeless Blond
It's not just technology advancing though; even things like knives are off by a fair bit. In fact, they're often off by about the same factor as the conversion between pounds and kilograms: a usable quick fix would be to read every equipment weight in SR as pounds instead of kilograms (divide by ~2.5). Even then, though, the encumberance rules are still a bit off; maybe use (Str+Bod/2+3) instead of Str for the calculation?
Squinky
QUOTE (ShadowGhost)
On the plus side, it also means that people aren't going to carry around 200 rounds of ammunition on them...

200 rnds is really not much. I used to carry a glock and ammo pouches that came to about 45 rnds....Now, if I knew I was going into a firefight, I would surely carry a a few 50 rnd bricks in with me...
Solstice
QUOTE (Voorhees)
Have you ever carried around that much weight for an extended period of time?

Heh. Are you joking? eek.gif
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Perhaps SR armor is so advanced that puny 20th century ammo isn't effective and they have to use heavy 1000+ grain ammo. It would explain the absurdly puny damage code for light and holdout pistols.

Only that wouldn't help penetration at all, unless you actually mean a massive increase in case size and powder weight as well, to the point were pistols are firing .338 Magnum rounds. As you probably know, when it comes to handguns, the cartridges that provide better penetration tend to be quite light indeed.

(You were probably joking anyway, but the subject matter always gets me a bit riled up.)

QUOTE (Squinky)
Now, if I knew I was going into a firefight, I would surely carry a a few 50 rnd bricks in with me...

You mean, if you were going into a series of firefights? Or would you actually plan to refill magazines in combat?
SpasticTeapot
I think the rules are more than fair. I regularly carry about roughly 30 lbs. in my backpack, and climbing 4 flights of stairs leaves me winded. (I'm in pretty decent shape, too.) Ducking about to avoid bullets most likely has the same effect.
EVLTIM
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
I think the rules are more than fair. I regularly carry about roughly 30 lbs. in my backpack, and climbing 4 flights of stairs leaves me winded. (I'm in pretty decent shape, too.) Ducking about to avoid bullets most likely has the same effect.

Heck no . What else is the decker going to do in combat?
Critias
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
I think the rules are more than fair.

You're absolutely correct. Their encumbrence rules -- and their weight values -- are completely fair and realistic. There's nothing ridiculous about their auto-unsoakable-magical-stun-damage for carrying anything heavy. Remember, a combat round is 3 seconds long.

An adult human in real life does, in fact, pass out after carrying 34 pounds around for 36 seconds. Or just 30 seconds if over 75 pounds, while being unable to run and able to physically move at half speed. Anyone of average physique foolish enough to attempt to carry more than 150 pounds, of course, automatically takes a Serious wound after nine seconds, and can shuffle along at only one-fourth of his movement rate. Automatically passing out from exertion from attempting anything heavier is, naturally, wholly realistic and a commonplace occurance.

Let's see. While backpacking around just a few years ago, I was lugging around about a 40k (88 lb) pack. I apparently have at least an 8 Strength, as I can quite honestly say I wasn't taking a Light wound every few seconds. Lacking an 8 Strength, in order to hike for three hours at a time (which I did, three times a day) I would need a Body Attribute of ~3600 in order to not take a Light wound (and then fall over unconscious within 27 seconds of first noticing my pack was a little too heavy for me).

Truly, I am a marvel.
Herald of Verjigorm
For a stressful situation (such as combat), the rules are pretty fair. For a situation that doesn't put as much much jerk on the skeleton, the rules shouldn't even apply. This premise can be supported in the rules by an argument that since it's measuired in combat turns, there is no effect while out of combat (not good logic, but here it fits the results people expect better).
Arethusa
Exactly. The adult human soldier passes out after 36 seconds in combat.
mmu1
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm @ May 26 2005, 01:23 PM)
For a stressful situation (such as combat), the rules are pretty fair.  For a situation that doesn't put as much much jerk on the skeleton, the rules shouldn't even apply.  This premise can be supported in the rules by an argument that since it's measuired in combat turns, there is no effect while out of combat (not good logic, but here it fits the results people expect better).

No, they aren't. Look up how much modern combat gear weighs, and you'll see they make no sense whatsoever.

Edit: I hate when I get distracted while typing an answer and someone else with too much time on their hands jumps in first. nyahnyah.gif
BitBasher
I was always under the impression the person was just under the effects of a light wound when carrying that much, not that he actually took one.
Herald of Verjigorm
Well, there is a discrepency with that. All load related stun except for light is just described as a level that is achieved after (body) combat turns. However, the light also includes a mention of an additional box of stun every round afterward.
Assuming that the extra stun was supposed to apply to all ratings, it means that carrying more than (STR*14.99 kg) hits you harder but no sooner than the lower step.

If you don't pay attention to those extra lines listed with the light stun, you get the effect without the high speed dropping afterward.

I had missed the part about the extra stun occuring on every subsequent combat turn, that's just excessive. An extra box of stun every (body) combat turns for active participation in combat situations is more rational and what I meant to support.
Critias
So if you're running to get into position and then free-climbing up the side of a building, the weight doesn't matter, but as soon as your sniper gets himself atop the roof and settles into position to start lying prone and calmly shooting people 500 meters away -- he starts taking stun from the weight of his backpack and rifle and spare ammo. Combat rounds have been entered, and it's automatically assumed he's acting strenuously (moreso than he possibly could before an initiative roll was made)?

Yeah, that works. It makes way more sense now.

Oh! And if you assume in this case that "combat round" doesn't simply mean "3 seconds," then you have to make the same assumption when it comes to deadly damage and the physical condition monitor. That is, a character who's taken more than Deadly (but less than Deadly + Body) damage will bleed out at a rate of one box of damage per combat turn -- but will not, then, continue to bleed once the fight is over. Which brings up all sorts of interesting, if confusing, scenarios (especially since the same assumption about "combat round" versus "not combat round" is from now on going to be used for encumbrance, too).

Does the gut-shot, unconscious, character stop bleeding as soon as his last surviving enemy lowers his weapon? Or only when that last surviving enemy holsters the weapon? Or when that last surviving enemy leaves the room? What if another team member is still in combat in the next room -- does it still count as "combat time" so that the character keeps bleeding to death (and so that some other character, also in the group, stays pinned, helpless, under the weight of his backpack full of extra clothes?)? When, exactly, does the combat round end (so that the gut-shot character's wound will close over, and the luggage-pinned character can get up and sprint around again)?

I'm all curious, now.
Krazy
executed disbelief. not suspended, murdered. I think they did a bad when they said that a combat round was three soecond. now, it that one persons actions take three seconds, one pass through everyone's actions is three seconds? and fireing two rapid pistol shots takes the same leangth of time as carefullly aiming one rifle shot from 500m? The solution? Just use Movie Time ™! If they need just a few more seconds to make it to save the sniper from being crushed under his backpack, then they can make it. of course that does notheing for the encomberance rules, which are by cannon optional to keep characters from carrying everything they own, (and a year's suppy of bread)
Herald of Verjigorm
Ah, wonderful extrapolations there. How's this as a corrected phrase, since any actual attempt ot conveying meaning here without a lawyer present will be misread and used against the argument. "Encumberance rules apply when using combat pool or any physical attribute or linked skill (including reaction)." Is that easier for you to grasp?
Krazy
so If I use my athletics skill to run i take stun from my gear, but if I just try to run, and make standard body tests I don't? not slaming you HV
Arethusa
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
"Encumberance rules apply when using combat pool or any physical attribute or linked skill (including reaction)." Is that easier for you to grasp?

Still stupid. Soldiers still collapse, unconscious, after 36 seconds in combat.
Fresno Bob
Wait, they continue taking light wounds? Thats dumb. It should just be that they're under the effect of a light wound.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Voorhees)
Wait, they continue taking light wounds? Thats dumb.

Hence the acrimony.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Arethusa @ May 26 2005, 03:06 PM)
Soldiers still collapse, unconscious, after 36 seconds in combat.

That was a follow-up to my original point that changes the rate from 1/turn to 1/body turns. Resulting in a minute and a half of strenuous activity. The times are still also based on the assumption that military training doesn't include enough strength and endurance training to so much as improve an average recruit to a recruit with 4s for physical attributes.
Krazy
that's not a lot of staying power wink.gif
Arethusa
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
QUOTE (Arethusa @ May 26 2005, 03:06 PM)
Soldiers still collapse, unconscious, after 36 seconds in combat.

That was a follow-up to my original point that changes the rate from 1/turn to 1/body turns. Resulting in a minute and a half of strenuous activity. The times are still also based on the assumption that military training doesn't include enough strength and endurance training to so much as improve an average recruit to a recruit with 4s for physical attributes.

Look, let's be generous: unconsciousness after two minutes of strenuous activity.

Still silly as hell.
Herald of Verjigorm
If a SR combat lasts over a minute it should either include a whole lot of hiding behind cover or a small army that is incompetant at ranged combat and all quickness 1. If you can take the time to sit behind cover and reload a weapon, you can take the time to remove the large bulky bag you're carrying that apparently has a large iron frying pan and enough ammo to survive in secanrio 2.

I will also add that I have never faced a PC trying to carry a toaster and 3 year supply of bread into a combat scenario. The closest I have faced are people who don't specify which ammo they are carrying in their pack, but still never go through enough that they would have been encumbered at any time if they were carrying four times as much as they used.
Krazy
so then what's the big deal, ignore the weights totaly and just say, your Str 2 mage can't lift the HMG
ShadowGhost
I allow players to carry up to, but not equal to or over 10 x STR without penalty. However, in combat, I impose a +1 TN modifier to all actions if they are over 5 x STR. As soon as they drop that rucksack (or whatever that extra weight is), those TN modifiers are gone immediately.

The modifier varies. Between 5 and 10 x STR: +1 TN between 10 and 15 x STR: +2 TN, etc

Stun damage (or equivalent) is silly. After all, if you have a trauma damper you won't take that light stun. This way PC watch their gear weights, but carry more than would normally be allowed... without trying to carry everything but the kitchen sink.

That's one of the reasons why I made the Backpack program as a player, so I knew exactly what I was carrying, and how much it weighed.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Krazy)
just say, your Str 2 mage can't lift the HMG

Or better yet, he can lift it, like any other 20-40kg piece of metal with decent handles, but he'll fall over firing it and won't hit the broad side of a barn, and he'll be slow and clumsy while he's carrying it.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
If a SR combat lasts over a minute it should either include a whole lot of hiding behind cover or a small army that is incompetant at ranged combat and all quickness 1. If you can take the time to sit behind cover and reload a weapon, you can take the time to remove the large bulky bag you're carrying that apparently has a large iron frying pan and enough ammo to survive in secanrio 2.

I will also add that I have never faced a PC trying to carry a toaster and 3 year supply of bread into a combat scenario. The closest I have faced are people who don't specify which ammo they are carrying in their pack, but still never go through enough that they would have been encumbered at any time if they were carrying four times as much as they used.

Let's take a look at real life.

Say, a squad of well conditioned soldiers. Rough gear estimate: rifle, mags, helmet, armor, canteen, no frying pan, no toaster, no supply of bread, etc. Let's say it's around 35 lbs total. And they're running for a bit over a mile because the motherfucking humvees and Pakistani armored division drove off without them. Time to run for 15 minutes without rest.

No, I don't think they were unconscious two minutes in, and I don't think they lost consciousness when they got to the football stadium.

The rules are insane. The listed weights are insane. Mike Mulvhill can't tie his shoes. The solution is simple: ignore all the crap that no one in his right mind would try and rationalize away and just be reasonable about handling encumbrance without rules.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Arethusa @ May 26 2005, 03:45 PM)
Let's take a look at real life.

If that's what you want, stop bringing it into SR. If you want to house-rule your games to be statistically accurate to real-world conflicts, and drop the cyberware, bioware and whatever else would be needed to make those relevant, go ahead and have fun but don't tell us that it's what Shadowrun should be.

Besides, 35 pounds is not more than 30 kg so they would have no TN penalties.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Arethusa)
No, I don't think they were unconscious two minutes in, and I don't think they lost consciousness when they got to the football stadium.

Well, they didn't really have anything in the canteens by then and I should think the mags were mostly empty, but they were still probably carrying at least 40lbs per person (RBA + aluminum oxide plates front and back ~= 24lbs), and they were about as exhausted as a human can get even before they started running. On the other hand, they got onto vehicles on National Street, so they "only" ran about 10 blocks under fire, and took a short pause (a minute? two? five?) about halfway through.

Several of them were carrying 80lbs or more when they roped in, though, and they managed to fight for their lives for 14 straight hours without passing out.

But that's enough BHD for tonight.

QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
If you want to house-rule your games to be statistically accurate to real-world conflicts, and drop the cyberware, bioware and whatever else would be needed to make those relevant, go ahead and have fun but don't tell us that it's what Shadowrun should be.

Are you seriously saying that the existance of cyberware, bioware and magic must necessarily fuck up gravity and the amount of exhaustion human beings can take?
Jrayjoker
The mechanics are broken as written, don't use them as written.

People will still carry stuff in the future. personally I don't need a mechanic in my RPG to describe carrying a lot of stuff can be tiring. I will exercise common sense (not that common, I know).
Shadow
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ May 26 2005, 07:20 AM)
I think the rules are more than fair. I regularly carry about roughly 30 lbs. in my backpack, and climbing 4 flights of stairs leaves me winded. (I'm in pretty decent shape, too.) Ducking about to avoid bullets most likely has the same effect.

When I was in the army we had to march 12 miles with a 85 pound pack, our M-16 rifle and 16 magazines, plus gear (boots, BDU's etc). I was a bit tired at the end of the march. However in combat we were always told to drop our ruck first thing (after diving for cover).

I can see carrying 30 to 50 pounds of gear on you if the weight is well distributed and not suffering a light stun wound. After 50 I would say a BOD test to ressist the stun. That way it rewards people with a greater endurance.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012