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Hoondatha
Ok, everyone, time for a hypothetical question. A 15th Circle Earthdawn adept (I'll say Weaponsmith, just to pick one) that is also a 15th Circle Lightbearer suddenly appears in 2064. How many of the Lightbearer talent powers would you rule could be used in SR's magic-poor environment? For that matter, has it ever been hashed out how many Circles of an ED character would be "active," and what circle spells can be cast? Would there be any difference between the Lightbearer talent and all the character's other talents due to the Lightbearer talent being tied into the Great Pattern? Final question: if a Lightbearer uses Edge of Light on a bullet and promptly shoots a spirit with it, what would you rule happens?

Thanks. I've got opinions of my own on these (of course), but I value all input and freely admit that many of you know more than I do.
Kagetenshi
As for how many circles are active, it is apparently possible to netherwalk in the 2050s, so that ought to give you a general idea.

~J
fistandantilus4.0
Harlequin did the sword effect in Hq:B, and I would assume that an edge of light would require an edged weapon. Have to check my ED: comp.

As for circles and spells.... I'd say anything could go. If there wasn't enough mana, try a power focus or power site. I'd assume there's a good reason that all the immortal types go for power sites (because I assume they don't need 5 extra dice for a test). I'd say things like the Veil and summoning the Wild Hunt, the barrier around Tibet, would all be in the high magic category.

Also, at the end of the first harlequin adventure, Harlequin and Ehran basically teleport, which I believe is a high circle lightbearer power (is that the one you were referring to Kage?).

Out of curiosity, how are you planning on carrying the character over?
Kagetenshi
That is indeed (stepping physically into the astral, moving there to the destination, and then stepping back out).

~J
Hoondatha
I'm not sure I will be bringing an ED character forward, it's just that I've been reading a lot of ED materials after being exclusively an SR guy, and I was wondering how the two would match up. I figured sending an ED character forward would be more charitable than sending a shadowrunner into the Fourth World.

Edge of Light states "any melee or missile weapon," which is why I'm curious about its effect with bullets. I didn't know about it being in Harlequin's Back, I'm trying hard to find that one (and the Dragonsheart Trilogy too), but so far haven't had any luck. This just adds one more reason I need to get it.
Thistledown
Bringing somebody from earthdawn to shadowrun would be pretty easy, actually. Just put him in a stasis bubble of some kind and stash him away somewhere. Some 8060 years later, the stasis spell drops, and he climbs out into a new world.

Sending someone back, however, would be a much more difficult trick.
Hoondatha
Or hey, some city could have tried to use the spell City in a Bottle to escape the Scourge and the bottle got lost. Huh. Now there's a rather epic SR adventure: find the bottle before everyone else can. A chance to trot out ALL of the hidden SR power groups as they fight over the magic of an Age of Legend city at its height. Hmm. Could work.
fistandantilus4.0
Ahhh damn... now I'm going to have to use that in a game.

Imagine the problems with sending a character forward though. alk about culture shock. The only language they would be able to speak would be very bad Sperethial. Have to have the speak language talent.
FlakJacket
Its been a while, but weren't there quite a few similarities between the Lightbearers and the Mystic Crusaders from Threats and the other books?

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
That is indeed (stepping physically into the astral, moving there to the destination, and then stepping back out).

Well that sounds like a seriously useful ability. Which book has information on this and the Lightbearers in general?
Wireknight
See, I thought I was being innovative when I had a character I play develop the ability to physically cross over to and from the astral plane (and metaplanes) as a top-tier unique metamagic. Damned Lightbearers, stealing my thoughts.
Tziluthi
QUOTE (Thistledown)
Bringing somebody from earthdawn to shadowrun would be pretty easy, actually. Just put him in a stasis bubble of some kind and stash him away somewhere. Some 8060 years later, the stasis spell drops, and he climbs out into a new world.

Wouldn't the spell fizzle out with the low magic?
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Tziluthi)
Wouldn't the spell fizzle out with the low magic?

Have it done at a very strong power site- as the mana level drops the site still retains just enough to keep the spell active. And when the mana levels go back up, well lots of people are interested in powerful power sites and might go poking around them. smile.gif
SpasticTeapot
QUOTE (Tziluthi)
QUOTE (Thistledown @ Jun 3 2005, 12:29 AM)
Bringing somebody from earthdawn to shadowrun would be pretty easy, actually.  Just put him in a stasis bubble of some kind and stash him away somewhere.  Some 8060 years later, the stasis spell drops, and he climbs out into a new world.

Wouldn't the spell fizzle out with the low magic?

If Dragons and IE's could survive the low-magic world, I imagine that someone was likely able to figure out a way to keep the spell going. Perhaps the person brought the sustaining/anchor focus with them into the bubble?

I, personally, like the idea of the world suddenly reappearing from a bottle. You'd have all the crazies who've been searching for atlantis constantly hounding the characters, and every magical group this side of anywhere trying to get the PCs to do their bidding. Plus, it's a great way to introduce all sorts of wacky magic to the game world without complaints from rules lawyers.
Ancient History
City in a Bottle would be a pain and the ass way to incorporate ED into SR. Parlainth (esp. the gateway), the lost Maracian city, a fragmentary metaplane, the people under the Hill...these are at least semi-reasonable. I honestly doubt a site of sufficient potency to maintain such a high-level spell exists.
FlakJacket
So just make it something diddly like petrify and you're set.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Ancient History)
City in a Bottle would be a pain and the ass way to incorporate ED into SR. Parlainth (esp. the gateway), the lost Maracian city, a fragmentary metaplane, the people under the Hill...these are at least semi-reasonable. I honestly doubt a site of sufficient potency to maintain such a high-level spell exists.

I was actually thinking something like a city that had been 'bottled' to protect it from the Scourge, then stashed some place (like an alchera/hill people (from Book of Explr 2)/temple underthe artic) and never rediscovered. Then some group like the Atlanteans find it, and the IE's freak. Imagine what kind of chaos that could cause, name givers with knowledge of the 4th world reappearing in a city that would be hard to miss. Or worse, what if the city had been penetrated. That's not something they could allow. The whole point would be to secure the item and make sure that it's never opened, to avoid the chaos it would cause. At the same time dooming the inhabitants that may or may not be waiting to be saved.

Not to mentioon that they would also probably want any thread items. A run with lots of dragons, drakes, and elves. That's a scary scale of power to be running on.

I know it's a bit of a stretch of the imagination, and goes beyond the scope of a normal run ( and then some). Just thought it was an interesting idea.
nick012000
That sounds like a cool run. Odds are that the runners would open it, though. Then all hell really would break loose.

Oh, and don't forget the Great Dragons. Ol' Loffy would probably love to get his claws on that...
nezumi
QUOTE (Tziluthi)
QUOTE (Thistledown @ Jun 3 2005, 12:29 AM)
Bringing somebody from earthdawn to shadowrun would be pretty easy, actually.  Just put him in a stasis bubble of some kind and stash him away somewhere.  Some 8060 years later, the stasis spell drops, and he climbs out into a new world.

Wouldn't the spell fizzle out with the low magic?

Don't be silly. The space inside of the bubble is in stasis, remember? So it's still high magic.

Or cast the spell from the middle of the bubble. It's technically an instaneous spell, but it's frozen itself in the middle of casting. Until the spell ends, it can't end nyahnyah.gif

If memory serves, some of the 'cities in a bottle' were sent off to other metaplanes, no? I seem to recollect in the scourge just before Earthdawn opens, at least one city went that way. I don't see why it couldn't come back from there.
Hoondatha
Wow. I was being semi-fascetious with the City in a Bottle reference, not really having any idea why the spell wouldn't wear off along with the magic level. Then I leave for a day and that problem gets solved. smile.gif

For the record, Lightbearers are in the First Edition Earthdawn Companion. The edition's important, because they aren't in the second edition. Also, it isn't a discipline, but rather a special talent that can be added to any discipline. So you have Archer Lightbearers, Weaponsmith Lightbearers, and, the most scary, Horror Slayer Lightbearers. The Circle 15 talent was the ability to physically enter the astral for fifteen minutes. They had a number of other really neat abilities, though several of them hinge on the death of the Lightbearer.

I'm not sure about the Mystic Crusaders. Darn. Now I'm going to have to spend all day searching my books for them. Threats you say? Well that's a starting point.
nick012000
QUOTE (Hoondatha)
Edge of Light states "any melee or missile weapon," which is why I'm curious about its effect with bullets.

It makes Horrors die. Especially of you cast it on something like a HVMG.
Tziluthi
...or naval scale weaponry.
Hoondatha
I'm not sure whether to gasp in horror or laugh uproariously. I'd never even thought of using it on naval weapons. Now *there's* a Horror's nightmare.
FrostyNSO
What about Nukes?
Kagetenshi
Neither a melee nor a missile weapon.

Well, unless you hit someone with it, then it's an awkward big rock/non-explosive cannon shell.

~J
Hoondatha
It really depends on how far you want to stretch the definintion of "missile weapon." Technically, most known weapons are either melee (grasped in one or more hands) or missile (propelled through the air). The exceptions would be things like land mines, however the fact that the "missile" contains explosives has no effect on the category (ex: hand grenades). Guns are also "missile" weapons, all they do is substitute a chemical propellant for that of human muscle. And naval weapons are nothing but big guns.

The fly in the ointment is how magic interacts with all these weapons. Obviously, Edge of Light was originally "designed" to be used with human propelled missile weapons, since that was all that existed in ED. It might work as-is with guns, or it might need the magical version of retooling.

What I figure is that if Lightbearers survived into the 5th World (as they had sworn to do), and they maintained at least their Lightbearer powers if nothing else (and that's the big if), they would sooner or later have realised the use of guns and put in the requisit R&D time to make Edge of Light work with bullets. It might even have been easier back then, when all they'd need to "enchant" would be the metal ball, as opposed to the all-in-one cartridges we have today.

Anyway, that's my two cents.
Kagetenshi
The issue is that the weapon is not a missile weapon in that its nature as a missile is, ultimately, irrelevant—it's that whole explosion thing that's important.

If you want to chuck a grenade at someone like a rock, go right ahead. I'd give you the Edge of Light effects for that. When it subsequently explodes, though, that part is in no way a missile weapon (though the shrapnel could be considered missile weapons, so I suppose grenades are bad examples).

~J
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Hoondatha)
It really depends on how far you want to stretch the definintion of "missile weapon." Technically, most known weapons are either melee (grasped in one or more hands) or missile (propelled through the air). The exceptions would be things like land mines, however the fact that the "missile" contains explosives has no effect on the category (ex: hand grenades). Guns are also "missile" weapons, all they do is substitute a chemical propellant for that of human muscle. And naval weapons are nothing but big guns.

The fly in the ointment is how magic interacts with all these weapons. Obviously, Edge of Light was originally "designed" to be used with human propelled missile weapons, since that was all that existed in ED. It might work as-is with guns, or it might need the magical version of retooling.

What I figure is that if Lightbearers survived into the 5th World (as they had sworn to do), and they maintained at least their Lightbearer powers if nothing else (and that's the big if), they would sooner or later have realised the use of guns and put in the requisit R&D time to make Edge of Light work with bullets. It might even have been easier back then, when all they'd need to "enchant" would be the metal ball, as opposed to the all-in-one cartridges we have today.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

I'm pretty sure that there were bows and arrows in ED, which aren't technically human propelled. If Edge of Light works with arrows then it should work with bullets. Explosives are another matter entirely.
Hoondatha
Oh, come on. Bows and arrows are human powered. Human powered does not just mean thrown. You have to draw the string back with your arms (or legs). The bow amplifies the body's power, it doesn't replace it. As opposed to a gun, where the body is completely absent, except for the small twitch on the trigger.

Somewhat more on topic, and something I just realised when thinking on how integral human power is for bows, is the issue of the crossbow, which seems to be somewhere in between the bow and the gun. A human has to prep the bow, but once the string is set it essentially becomes a large gun with one shot. And Edge of Light works there.
nezumi
Bows, crossbows, shurikens etc. are definitely human powered. In the case of bows and crossbows, it's human power that's converted to potential energy through the tension of the drawstring, but it's still originally human power. If you got a robot to pull back on the crossbow as an autoloader, THEN it would not be human powered. Guns aren't the same. The energy is originally chemical. The only part humans have is in putting energy behind the hammer.

Chibu
Edge of Light (or whatever) works on Missile Weapons (ie, bow & arrow, crossbow) or a melee weapon (ie, sword, club, Wagon Wheel). It does NOT work, however, on thrown weapons, such as shurikin or throwing knives. Wether it works on guns oir not, there is no rule. but, being that missile weapons and guns are different skills (as are missile weapons and throwing weapons) i don't see it working. Also because it's silly.
Mortax
I want to craft my ally spirt into a nuc, dikote it, cast Edge of Light on it, and then.....
Chibu
oh, and for the record, (not to be a jerk) Lightbarer is a Talent not a Discipline, so, you'd be a Rank 15 lightbarer in whatever circle.
Hoondatha
Lightbearer is indeed a talent, however, the way it is referred to is closer to a Discipline than a Talent (ex: a Rank 13 Lightbearer), which just thoughouly confuses the issue. Would you call an Archer who's also a Lightbearer a Lightbearing Archer? The books don't say, at least not that I can find.
nezumi
QUOTE (Chibu)
Edge of Light (or whatever) works on Missile Weapons (ie, bow & arrow, crossbow) or a melee weapon (ie, sword, club, Wagon Wheel). It does NOT work, however, on thrown weapons, such as shurikin or throwing knives.

At which point I'd say 'what the heck'? Why doesn't it work on thrown weapons? Does it say?

Maybe just flip a coin on it.
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