Or maybe if you just dislike nWoD.
Goddamn, why does everything have to be so fucking dramatic with you? I especially like the, "The rest of us, ok its just me, choose to assume that the Developers are not brain damaged" line because it's completely divergent from reality and doesnot reflect any stated sentiment by anyone in this forum anywhere at any time. If you're going to engage in hyperbole, at least base it off something factual.
Full Version: Vampire: The M/R vs Shadowrun 4
You mean like the people who were trying to convince me that the developers were excising math from Shadowrun 4?
You're a ridiculous twit.
I explained to you exactly what was meant by that, backed it up with information from the FAQs and the forums, and everyone but you understood exactly what was meant by it. Grow up.
I explained to you exactly what was meant by that, backed it up with information from the FAQs and the forums, and everyone but you understood exactly what was meant by it. Grow up.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| "The rest of us, ok its just me, choose to assume that the Developers are not brain damaged" line because it's completely divergent from reality and doesnot reflect any stated sentiment by anyone in this forum anywhere at any time. |
huh ...
Let say 1 is not 0 (Nerbert is someone)
Let say 2 is not 0 (I think SR4 won't be perfect, but I hope I will be good - and Yes I believe the dev are not brain damage)
Let say I have seen plenty of statement (even if less than half of the forum) which goes in that direction.
... Just to point out you are to passionate. It shadows your mind.
To Critias : bla bla bla bla bla !!!
(woof !! woooff !)
Critias, you tried to use in formation from the FAQs and the forums to prove that the developers were removing math. Thats precisely how you presented everything you said. So, I'm sorry if it sounds rediculous to you.
Especially since your entire premise was based off the idea that "division is too complicated" when d20 itself has division right there for all the world to see.
Especially since your entire premise was based off the idea that "division is too complicated" when d20 itself has division right there for all the world to see.
"My name's Nerbert, I love bringing up stuff from other threads that I swear I'm not obsessing about! If anyone replies directly to something I bring up from another thread, they look stupid 'cause they're OT and trying to defend a post no one has read lately. If they don't reply directly to something I bring up from another thread, I feel a little tiny bit like what a winner must feel like! The internet is magical!"
I explained my position over there, precisely no one but you didn't understand it, and you just can't let it go. I'm sorry no one liked your guess as to how Edge was going to work. I'm sorry mommy and daddy didn't hug you enough. I'm sorry eating the lead paint chips left you unable to comprehend that the entire point behind SR4 is to simplify as much as they can. I'm sorry you don't remember hearing that part of why combat pool (as a for instance) is gone is to remove the so-called complicated formules required to calculate that pool in the first place. I'm sorry you can't seem to get that your idea was complicated; remarkably so.
I'm sorry I talk to you.
I'm sorry.
Can we please just drop it now? Jesus. Please? Can you stop bringing it up and move on with whatever it is you do by way of a life? Huh? Pretty please?
I explained my position over there, precisely no one but you didn't understand it, and you just can't let it go. I'm sorry no one liked your guess as to how Edge was going to work. I'm sorry mommy and daddy didn't hug you enough. I'm sorry eating the lead paint chips left you unable to comprehend that the entire point behind SR4 is to simplify as much as they can. I'm sorry you don't remember hearing that part of why combat pool (as a for instance) is gone is to remove the so-called complicated formules required to calculate that pool in the first place. I'm sorry you can't seem to get that your idea was complicated; remarkably so.
I'm sorry I talk to you.
I'm sorry.
Can we please just drop it now? Jesus. Please? Can you stop bringing it up and move on with whatever it is you do by way of a life? Huh? Pretty please?
Yes, its embarassing to see you get more and more frusterated and make more and more of a fool out of yourself.
I will paypal you a dollar if you stop talking.
| QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 9 2005, 01:24 PM) |
| My name's Nerbert, I love bringing up stuff from other threads that I swear I'm not obsessing about! .... Can we please just drop it now? Jesus. Please? Can you stop bringing it up and move on with whatever it is you do by way of a life? Huh? Pretty please? |
That just made my week.
Is that a dollar before or after Paypal's cut?
~J
~J
Probably after, Paypal would charge Crit a buck thirty, and then send Nerbert a buck.
| QUOTE (Nerbert) |
| Scarecrow, your statement that "SR4 has a lot more in common with V:tR than SR3 ever had with V:tM" is unarguably correct. For example, I'll do the same thing with Backgammon and Monopoly. Its player A's turn. He picks up two d6s, the rolls them. Reading the numbers on those dice tell him how far to move his pieces. He moves them. I don't even have to go over the differences between the other rules of the game because this, the CORE DICE MECHANIC, is precisely the same for both systems. |
I think you are being sarcastic here but I have to respond. It seems that the confusion here is not about game systems, but what an RPG game mechanic is. You've over simplified things to the point of being silly.
In an Rpg, players take on roles of people they are not. In order to determine the outcome of actions that are either unsafe, or impossible to play act a random number generator is used to decide the action, most use dice, some use cards and I've seen some that are decided only by gm fiat. The kind of dice used are not a part of the mechanic, that is just flavor. Any die roll in any game is used to abstract the results of an action. A player with little skill rolls really well translates to The character, having never shot a gun happens to have gotten off a lucky shot.
The game mechanic for both the Elfquest RPG and the Call of Cthuhlu RPG, (both created by Chaosium) are the same mechanic (rolling percentile dice with adjustments determined at character creation and character experience) The fact that one game has an sanity meter doesn't make the mechanic different, it only adds flavor. If you insist that having anything at all different, such as the sanity rolls, makes it have a different mechanic, than there is no use arguing or continuing the thread, go play a game, any game, with your friends, and have fun. That's what I'll do.
In your sarcastic example it would have been better to say that chess has more in common with checkers then monopoly has with backgammon. Parchesi is the same game as Trouble, Trouble however is more fun because of the Pop-a-matic™ bubble.
Unless Elfquest and Call of Cthulu are very similar games, with similar "feel" when you play them, your post is just more evidence that people are blowing the similarities between SR4 and nWoD out of proportion.
| QUOTE (Scarecrow237 @ Jun 12 2005, 07:03 AM) |
| Parchesi is the same game as Trouble, Trouble however is more fun because of the Pop-a-matic™ bubble. |
That's almost sig-worthy.
SR4 is the same game as nWoD; SR4 however is more fun because of the Pop-a-matic™ bubble.
You silly, ridiculous human being.
I can't believe I actually read the first page of this thread.
-RoleModel
"I haven't figured out how to say FUCK YOU politely."
I can't believe I actually read the first page of this thread.
-RoleModel
"I haven't figured out how to say FUCK YOU politely."
| QUOTE (frostPDP) |
| In old, old online RP (AOL's Rhy'Din, if anyone was around...) |
holy crap Rhy'din. I cracked out on that game for like, 2 years. Wow, that's old-school.
Not as old-school as Island of Kesmai.
Kesmai? Pah.
Trade Wars 2002.
Trade Wars 2002.
My first computer + RPG wasn't even "online" really, since I had to dial into a (large) BBS with a modem pool of around 8 (!).
| QUOTE (Nerbert) |
| Unless Elfquest and Call of Cthulu are very similar games, with similar "feel" when you play them, your post is just more evidence that people are blowing the similarities between SR4 and nWoD out of proportion. |
Heh, Elfquest and CoC ARE the same game. They're both Runequest, edited for genre.
DrJest, you silly man. don't you understand that die mechanics have nothing to do with how a game is played, and therefore don't impact the setting at all?
wait, i wanted to say the exact opposite of what i just said! damn you, Sarcasmo, and your sarcasm-inducing powers!
wait, i wanted to say the exact opposite of what i just said! damn you, Sarcasmo, and your sarcasm-inducing powers!
A dice mechanic doesn't have anything to do with the setting. The way the dice mechanic is used, and how characters are reflected using it... that's a different story. All a dice mechanic is is a means of rolling dice and determining a result based off that roll. Everything beyond that are the rules of the game, not the dice mechanic.
It's like saying that using metric over standard tools completely change the way a vehicle performs. It's not the tools, but what you do with those tools, that make the difference.
It's like saying that using metric over standard tools completely change the way a vehicle performs. It's not the tools, but what you do with those tools, that make the difference.
I disagree. D20 Shadowrun would play TOTALLY different from how it is now. I think WOD Shadowrun would as well. Freeform certainly does.
The rules are meant to assist you in doing some things, and make it difficult to do others. Knowing how to use the rules properly lets you know which actions you can reasonably manage and which you can't, and what you can do to change that. If that doesn't affect game play, I don't know what does.
Simply said, saying any ganger with a pea-shooter is a threat doesn't do much if he can only do 1d4 damage, and you have 200 hitpoints. That's the mechanics making a mockery of the roleplaying game world.
The rules are meant to assist you in doing some things, and make it difficult to do others. Knowing how to use the rules properly lets you know which actions you can reasonably manage and which you can't, and what you can do to change that. If that doesn't affect game play, I don't know what does.
Simply said, saying any ganger with a pea-shooter is a threat doesn't do much if he can only do 1d4 damage, and you have 200 hitpoints. That's the mechanics making a mockery of the roleplaying game world.
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| I disagree. D20 Shadowrun would play TOTALLY different from how it is now. I think WOD Shadowrun would as well. Freeform certainly does. |
Those are rules sets, not dice mechanics. As mentioned repeatedly, Shadowrun and the original Storyteller system both had nearly identical dice mechanics (the only difference was one used d6 while the other used d10), but the rules were completely different... and it's those rules and the way those rules reflected characters that impacted the setting, not the dice mechanic.
So far the only major rules difference between SR3 and SR4 is that SR4 uses both attributes and skills to determine success, rather than just skill, but that's only a superficial change. In SR3, the same thing was occuring, except the player got to control when the limited-influence of his attributes (in the form of dice pools) were used. In SR4, you're basically gaining the full impact of your dice pool (being how your attributes used to influence rolls) on every single roll you make. Otherwise, the two seem to be largely similiar based upon the information revealed so far.
One thing I just can't comprehend is why people talk like there's only one "core mechanic" in a game and that every other rule is just "setting".
Doc, I hadn't seen rulesets previously mentioned as being different from mechanics (but it's a long thread, and I've only been glancing). If it's already typed out, I'll go back and look for it. If not, would you mind giving a more precise definition of what's ruleset and what's mechanics? Because they're all the same in my book.
Dice Mechanic: The most fundamental way the dice are used to determine an outcome. In SR3, the dice mechanic is "multiple d6s rolled against a variable target number; each die meeting or beating that TN is a success." In the old Storyteller system, the dice mechanic was "multiple d10s rolled against a variable target number; each die meeting or beating that TN is a success." In the d20 System, the dice mechanic is "d20 versus a variable target number; fail or succeed." In the Silhouette system (my personal favorite), the dice mechanic is "multiple d6's against a variable target number to determine a single outcome; success determined by range from TN."
Rules: Everything else, including determining how many dice to use or how to calculate modifiers, exceptions to the base mechanic (such as the Rule of Six), what successes mean, whether resistance rolls are used or not, and etc.
Rules: Everything else, including determining how many dice to use or how to calculate modifiers, exceptions to the base mechanic (such as the Rule of Six), what successes mean, whether resistance rolls are used or not, and etc.
i didn't say die mechanic. i said die mechanics, plural. you're right, a single die mechanic might not have much of an impact (though it can), but i'm talking about the system as a whole, not just a single mechanic. i suppose, in Funk-speak, i'm talking about rules. whichever.
In that case you're talking about the rules, not the dice mechanic (or derivitive dice mechanics thereof). That's all I'm trying to get through.
bah. never use one word where two will fit.
Actually, it makes a huge difference. Not a few pages ago I was being told that the "rules" are merely part of the setting, whereas the Dice Mechanic is the one thing that determines how the rest of the game is played.
People love strict definitions on message boards. They are all wrong however. If your point is not getting across because you are using words differently than your audience that is a fault in your arguement and you should clarify, not post a definition and then fight over it.
This "you" is generic.
This "you" is generic.
i said "dice mechanics" because, honestly, that's what i meant: what dice are rolled, what they signify, how they impact each other, etcetera. basically, i'm disincluding rules that don't pertain to die rolling--for instance, whether or not an astral form can pass through a living being, what kind of guns are listed in the gear section, what races are presented as playable. those types of rules are the setting. the dice mechanics--how much damage you can take, how difficult it is to make a shot or cast a spell--help define the setting.
CoC has an Insantity rule. Tracking santity is a part of the setting.
Rolling the die to see if you've gone bonkers is the mechanic.
WoD has Rage, Will, and whatever else I'm forgetting - those are setting specific. Rolling the ten sided die against a target number and counting successes is a mechanic.
Shadowrun currently has what? 2 base mechanics; the main mechanic that determines most everything; number of d6 vs. target number and counting successes. And a different mechanic for resolving initiative.
If i'm reading all this correctly that is.....
Rolling the die to see if you've gone bonkers is the mechanic.
WoD has Rage, Will, and whatever else I'm forgetting - those are setting specific. Rolling the ten sided die against a target number and counting successes is a mechanic.
Shadowrun currently has what? 2 base mechanics; the main mechanic that determines most everything; number of d6 vs. target number and counting successes. And a different mechanic for resolving initiative.
If i'm reading all this correctly that is.....
like i said, i'm not just talking about base mechanics. i'm talking about all the mechanics. for instance, let's talk about my favorite exampe: damage mechanics. in SR, combat is fairly lethal even at high levels, because damage is difficult to resist unless you're prepared, and you only get 10 hit points. more over, damage impairs your ability to act; the more damage you take, the more the odds stack agaisnt you. in d20, combat is not lethal at high levels, because a) characters have tens or hundreds of hit points, and b) lower-level characters don't stand a chance of hitting higher-level characters. the different levels of lethality encourage different styles of play.
Right, here's my comparison of the systems:
Dice pool mechanics of the two
SR4: Attr + Skill +/- modifiers, TN 5+ on a D6 fixed, "hits" scored decides whether passed
nWoD: Attr + Skill +/- modifiers, TN 8+ on a D10 fixed, a single success is a pass but more successes yield better results
Character statistics
SR4: 10 attributes: 4 physical, 4 mental, 2 special (magic/edge), all limited to scores of 1-6 along with skills.
nWoD: 9 attributes: 3 physical, 3 mental, 3 social, all limited to scores of 1-5 along with skills. An extra attribute appears in each "subgame" (mage, werewolf, vampire) that is unique to said variant.
Rerolling and gaining an advantage
SR4: The Edge attribute allows characters to spend points to gain rerolls and extra dice to actions to help them succeed.
nWoD: The Willpower attribute allows characters to spend points to gain rerolls to help them succeed.
Changes from last incarnation
SR4: Dice pools cleaned up a lot, attributes broken down further for ease of definition, attributes no longer sometimes derived from others, ruleset simplified, technology brought "up to speed", old books now totally redundant bar metaplot.
nWoD: Dice pools simplified, skills rejigged, metaplot reset, all games now standardised further for simplicity, direction and focus of games changed, ruleset simplified further.
I'd say they were pretty similar down to the way they've changed from previous iteration!
Dice pool mechanics of the two
SR4: Attr + Skill +/- modifiers, TN 5+ on a D6 fixed, "hits" scored decides whether passed
nWoD: Attr + Skill +/- modifiers, TN 8+ on a D10 fixed, a single success is a pass but more successes yield better results
Character statistics
SR4: 10 attributes: 4 physical, 4 mental, 2 special (magic/edge), all limited to scores of 1-6 along with skills.
nWoD: 9 attributes: 3 physical, 3 mental, 3 social, all limited to scores of 1-5 along with skills. An extra attribute appears in each "subgame" (mage, werewolf, vampire) that is unique to said variant.
Rerolling and gaining an advantage
SR4: The Edge attribute allows characters to spend points to gain rerolls and extra dice to actions to help them succeed.
nWoD: The Willpower attribute allows characters to spend points to gain rerolls to help them succeed.
Changes from last incarnation
SR4: Dice pools cleaned up a lot, attributes broken down further for ease of definition, attributes no longer sometimes derived from others, ruleset simplified, technology brought "up to speed", old books now totally redundant bar metaplot.
nWoD: Dice pools simplified, skills rejigged, metaplot reset, all games now standardised further for simplicity, direction and focus of games changed, ruleset simplified further.
I'd say they were pretty similar down to the way they've changed from previous iteration!
Silence, blasphemer! SR4 is the new jesus!
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| (to nerbert:) I explained my position over there, precisely no one but you didn't understand it, and you just can't let it go. |
Da booo !
Me stupide, me look at your facts as opinions, me stupid !
(me problems with my parents too ??? miss hugs mom and dad bouhouuuuu !)
Thank you for that sparklingly intelligent and undeniably informative addition to the conversation at hand. My mind has been completely changed. SR4 is going to change my socks from unrocked to rocked, and, indeed, it will rock them off completely. Your ability to persuade is astounding. I'm a new man. God bless you!
Thanks.
He did !
He did !
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| Thank you for that sparklingly intelligent and undeniably informative addition to the conversation at hand. My mind has been completely changed. SR4 is going to change my socks from unrocked to rocked, and, indeed, it will rock them off completely. Your ability to persuade is astounding. I'm a new man. God bless you! |
You're taking all this too serious.
| QUOTE |
| Right, here's my comparison of the systems: Dice pool mechanics of the two SR4: Attr + Skill +/- modifiers, TN 5+ on a D6 fixed, "hits" scored decides whether passed nWoD: Attr + Skill +/- modifiers, TN 8+ on a D10 fixed, a single success is a pass but more successes yield better results |
This is undeniably correct and is being disputed by precisely no one.
| QUOTE |
| Character statistics SR4: 10 attributes: 4 physical, 4 mental, 2 special (magic/edge), all limited to scores of 1-6 along with skills. nWoD: 9 attributes: 3 physical, 3 mental, 3 social, all limited to scores of 1-5 along with skills. An extra attribute appears in each "subgame" (mage, werewolf, vampire) that is unique to said variant. |
Your assessment is an oversimplification. Particularly since the difference between Skills in nWoD and are radically different. nWoD has 33 skills, no more, no less and not linked. Not to mention that the specific skills and attributes used by nWoD are a matter of game balance that effects every facet of the rest of the rules. In the past Shadowrun has had a huge variety of specialized skills one for virtually any task and additionally Knowledge Skills, which are made up, on the spot, by the player. I see no evidence that this has changed.
| QUOTE |
| Rerolling and gaining an advantage SR4: The Edge attribute allows characters to spend points to gain rerolls and extra dice to actions to help them succeed. nWoD: The Willpower attribute allows characters to spend points to gain rerolls to help them succeed. |
This is patently false on two fronts. First of all, nWoD allows rerolls of 10s on every roll, Willpower is never used this way. Second of all, Edge hasn't even been clearly defined, you don't know how it works, I don't know how it works, no one knows how it works, but its very clear that it doesn't work anything like Willpower.
| QUOTE |
| Changes from last incarnation SR4: Dice pools cleaned up a lot, attributes broken down further for ease of definition, attributes no longer sometimes derived from others, ruleset simplified, technology brought "up to speed", old books now totally redundant bar metaplot. nWoD: Dice pools simplified, skills rejigged, metaplot reset, all games now standardised further for simplicity, direction and focus of games changed, ruleset simplified further. |
This has absolutely nothing to do with the way the games are played. All you've done is reitterate the term "revision".
| QUOTE (Nerbert) |
| I don't know how it works... but its very clear that it doesn't work anything like Willpower. |
hey, kids, it's time for another round of Spot The Logical Disconnect! oh, boy, lightning round!
I sure am glad we "anti-SR4" hatemongers trademarked "making shit up," as Doc puts it. It's reassuring to know that no one on the other side is capable of such logical fallacies. Whew. Our schtick is secure!
Yes, because 1) I'm absolutely, madly, unquestionably in love with what's been revealed about SR4 thus far 
, and 2) in no way do I think Nerbert is being an idiot and have never, ever pointed out how he was being one previously for "making shit up." You nailed it again, Critias. <thumbs up>
, and 2) in no way do I think Nerbert is being an idiot and have never, ever pointed out how he was being one previously for "making shit up." You nailed it again, Critias. <thumbs up>
Is Edge a Derived attribute? Is it derived from a character's mental and social resistsance attributes? Is it used solely to add three dice to a characters proactive actions or two to a character defensive actions? Is it refreshed based upon how successfully a player roleplays his character's Virtue and Vice? If it works differently then that in any way, then it doesn't work anything like Willpower.
And by the way, its not a logical fallacy.
P = We don't know how it works.
Q = We know that it doesn't work anything like Willpower.
Q is not dependant on P
For example. We don't know what the weather is like outside. But we know that Rain is not anything like Spaghetti and we know that Spaghetti stands no chance of falling from the sky.
Or for a more appropriate example. I don't know how a car works, but I know that it doesn't work anything like a bicycle. Its true that they can both be used, more or less, to get me around town, but they do it in completely different ways and they don't feel anything alike when I use them.
And by the way, its not a logical fallacy.
P = We don't know how it works.
Q = We know that it doesn't work anything like Willpower.
Q is not dependant on P
For example. We don't know what the weather is like outside. But we know that Rain is not anything like Spaghetti and we know that Spaghetti stands no chance of falling from the sky.
Or for a more appropriate example. I don't know how a car works, but I know that it doesn't work anything like a bicycle. Its true that they can both be used, more or less, to get me around town, but they do it in completely different ways and they don't feel anything alike when I use them.
Okay, but your saying that you have no idea how edge works - so how can you say it doesn't work like will power?
In your bicycle/ car example - pretend you've never seen a car - or know anything about them.
How could you then compare the car to the bicycle? You have no idea what a 'car' is.
In your bicycle/ car example - pretend you've never seen a car - or know anything about them.
How could you then compare the car to the bicycle? You have no idea what a 'car' is.
I'll answer your question by going through the questions I asked and answering them all for you, based on information we already know from the FAQs.
Is Edge a Derived attribute - No
Is it derived from a character's mental and social resistsance attributes? - Ha ha, what're those?
Is it used solely to add three dice to a characters proactive actions or two to a character defensive actions? - It may, but probably not and thats definitely not all it does.
Is it refreshed based upon how successfully a player roleplays his character's Virtue and Vice? - Ha ha, you're silly.
I have indeed seen the car from a distance, and I am exquisitely familiar with the functioning of the bicycle, and a bicycle don't got no four wheels.
Is Edge a Derived attribute - No
Is it derived from a character's mental and social resistsance attributes? - Ha ha, what're those?
Is it used solely to add three dice to a characters proactive actions or two to a character defensive actions? - It may, but probably not and thats definitely not all it does.
Is it refreshed based upon how successfully a player roleplays his character's Virtue and Vice? - Ha ha, you're silly.
I have indeed seen the car from a distance, and I am exquisitely familiar with the functioning of the bicycle, and a bicycle don't got no four wheels.
| QUOTE |
| Second of all, Edge hasn't even been clearly defined, you don't know how it works, I don't know how it works, no one knows how it works, but its very clear that it doesn't work anything like Willpower. |
Okay, but come on, can you see how this sentence just doesn't make sense?
It's totally illogical.
Oh its logical, its just not very clearly stated. If there weren't already five posts about it I would edit it. So let it stand here, corrected.
"Second of all, the only thing that has been clearly defined about Edge is that it is no more comparable to Willpower then a Car is to a Bicycle. Sure they both get you around town, but they do it in completely different ways, and they don't feel anything alike when you use them."
"Second of all, the only thing that has been clearly defined about Edge is that it is no more comparable to Willpower then a Car is to a Bicycle. Sure they both get you around town, but they do it in completely different ways, and they don't feel anything alike when you use them."
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