Didn't you hear? Every copy of SR4 is actually pressed high explosive, which will be detonated when the game has become popular enough.
~J
Full Version: Can we delay 4th Ed. for 1 year?
| QUOTE |
| Didn't you hear? Every copy of SR4 is actually pressed high explosive, which will be detonated when the game has become popular enough. |
And didn't you know? Rather than die in Berlin in '45, Hitler used the starship 'Andromeda' tucked together by Wernher von Braun at Peenemünde in the last days of the war to set off to Sirius, together with a breeding stock of perfect germanic women, to generate a race of space super nazis, and to plot his eventual return.
I did know that. Elvis told me when he came back to grab his lunchbox.
~J
~J
That's ok, Hercules will defeat him.
.... and the Roswell UFO was actually full of leet space Nazis! Fear the Nazi space invaders!
The sad part is that I know of someone who actually believes in the Sirius tale.
The sad part is that I know of someone who actually believes in the Sirius tale.
It was very nice of you all to Derail Fox's topic with in 3 pages. Here here.
She makes a very valid point, one brought up on both sides. Make the game great, not quick.
She makes a very valid point, one brought up on both sides. Make the game great, not quick.
But there's no point in discussing it because it's no more plausible than anything we've been talking about in the last half-dozen posts. Do you have any idea how much of a momentum-killer a year's delay would be?
~J
~J
I think many people have said Fox makes a great point. Myself included.
But the logic of a delayed release is that its too late. I'd love to see it delayed, if not a year then a few months. Maybe they could even have a "Beta" version of SR4 at Gencon, so that people can play it and give feedback for a final.
But the liklihood of that happening is the same as Hitler being in some foreign planet.
But the logic of a delayed release is that its too late. I'd love to see it delayed, if not a year then a few months. Maybe they could even have a "Beta" version of SR4 at Gencon, so that people can play it and give feedback for a final.
But the liklihood of that happening is the same as Hitler being in some foreign planet.
| QUOTE (Shadow) |
| She makes a very valid point, one brought up on both sides. Make the game great, not quick. |
I'd like to make another a great point too; World Peace would be a nice thing. Unfortunately there are some realilities that block both World Peace and nigh unlimited development times, which a full year is akin to.
Perhaps a month or two. Hitting a already advertised publishing date seems pretty damn critical. But maybe that can flex. I don't know the industry that well, so I don't know how critical GenCon is to a launch. But industries that rely on distributors often need to hit dates damn close. It isn't just Fanpro investors and bankers to satisfy. The ditribution network plans their business around these too. Shafting your distribution is bad, bad, bad.
However I was thinking about how they might be able to buy a bit of time, a week or two. They might be able to have the typeset file shipped a little late to the printers and a short run of the limited edition books air shipped to the show. The printing of the main body of books wouldn't actually start till around the time of GenCon, so the books wouldn't hit stores for a week or two. That would also be somewhat of a mommentum loss, and mess some with retail promotion plans, but might be worth the trade-off.
Compressing the schedule could be real scary though. You risk quality there too. Not the words, but the physical book itself. When you send off a typeset file the printer makes up a few proof copies that they send back to get approval for the entire run. Fanpro needs to examine these and make sure that it is what they want to see in the store. They check all the pages to make sure the content is there, that the book doesn't fall apart, that the colours artwork and text are up to quality, etc. They then sign off on the run.
The more they compress that schedule the less safety buffer they have.
I dunno, if it were me, My goal woulda been Gama - At least have some sort of introductory pamphlet to pass out. A cross between the old teaser flyer and the Quickstart guide. Color picts, fiction, and rules.
That woulda got the info into the hands of the people that count - the buyers, the store owners, and the distributors. That would have generated sr4 hype at gencon.
I would also have tied the release with some other materiel - possibly the Almanac/History book that was mentioned some months ago, or a short story anthology. Some works that chronicled the system crash and rebuild, and ending with a short story on the new matrix.
But thats just me.
That woulda got the info into the hands of the people that count - the buyers, the store owners, and the distributors. That would have generated sr4 hype at gencon.
I would also have tied the release with some other materiel - possibly the Almanac/History book that was mentioned some months ago, or a short story anthology. Some works that chronicled the system crash and rebuild, and ending with a short story on the new matrix.
But thats just me.
Just to add a little perspective here, you'd be amazed at the speed in which editing, layout, and print can be done in today's age of digital technology. As a graphic designer, I produce flyers, brochures, and multipage ads with SEVERE deadlines. I would imagine that while the rules are being playtested and tweeked, there are people already working on layouts, organization, and yes, even an index. Changes to entire sections of text can be changed in a matter of minutes.
While I cannot say if the rules will be fully developed in time for release, I don't think the technical aspects will hinder the final release.
While I cannot say if the rules will be fully developed in time for release, I don't think the technical aspects will hinder the final release.
I had heard that they were going to announce it at Gencon SoCal last December but missed it then.
I do understand why they cant miss this release date. A few months ago maybe they could have changed it, but not now. Now I just hope they listen to the feedback and make the right changes. Instead of doing the George Lucas thing and say "Well if you don't like it you just don't like change"
I do understand why they cant miss this release date. A few months ago maybe they could have changed it, but not now. Now I just hope they listen to the feedback and make the right changes. Instead of doing the George Lucas thing and say "Well if you don't like it you just don't like change"
| QUOTE (Kenshi @ Jun 6 2005, 02:45 PM) |
| Just to add a little perspective here, you'd be amazed at the speed in which editing, layout, and print can be done in today's age of digital technology. As a graphic designer, I produce flyers, brochures, and multipage ads with SEVERE deadlines. I would imagine that while the rules are being playtested and tweeked, there are people already working on layouts, organization, and yes, even an index. Changes to entire sections of text can be changed in a matter of minutes. While I cannot say if the rules will be fully developed in time for release, I don't think the technical aspects will hinder the final release. |
It has been a few years since I was involved with the printing of a retail product, but I think it was around 2 1/2 business day hour turn around for digital image to printer and then the proofs shipped back across the US-Canada border. That was for a software package with coloured trifold, manuals, inserts and such. Total turn around was something like 10 days from cut-off for changes to have the full run into shipping.
It wouldn't surprise me if you could squeeze some time out of that, especially if you didn't have mixed media to worry about.
What I was thinking about was the scary thought of them having the limited edition books printed and shipped directly to GenCon as the proof copies. That is why I'm saying it would be scary. Imagine Adam's stress level as he cut open the boxes in the back of the convention booth so he could get the first look at the book he'd be hocking in a few hours.
| QUOTE |
| I had heard that they were going to announce it at Gencon SoCal last December but missed it then. |
This is incorrect. A GTS 2005 announcement was the only plan seriously considered, once the release date was decided on.
They do read what we write.... 
Are you sure about that Adam. Really sure?
Really sure. While my memory -- and a quick search of my email history -- says that announcing it at SoCal was discussed, it was shot down pretty quickly.
I must have heard about it in the window between discussed and shot down then.
Kenshi yes there's the abilty to do stuff really quickly but you are mssing two key elements. 1) there is drag time between the playtesters saying "dude that was cool but the part about____ just didn't work" when they have to figure out how to fix the rule not just type it out.
2)FASA and Fanpro have had a reral toruble meeting many deadlines. Lots of the SB's got delayed because of problems with the printers. If they don't get it done on date X, odds are it ain't happening so why would they risk it.
Sure failing to get something out at GENCON would be a disaster after hype, BUT if what they put out is poor quality done in a half assed manner because it was rushed, they will save nothing but piss off even more people who laid out money.I like the idea given about that a Gencon the put out a teaser, maybe a 60-90 page very basics to see how people respond, with the full rules to be out in ONE YEAR!
the change from 1st ed to 2nd was needed. there had been releases to update the rules and 2nd ed really codified everything in one book. Adam will vouch that I bitched, and still do, about 2nd the 3rd saying it was unneeded but since the basics stayed the same there was no damage to older campgins and SB's. This is a complete reworking without any warning or reason, and the pR they've done tyring to be cute is making it worse. Like a Doctor who's bedside manner includes comments about how the price of coffins are way down..
2)FASA and Fanpro have had a reral toruble meeting many deadlines. Lots of the SB's got delayed because of problems with the printers. If they don't get it done on date X, odds are it ain't happening so why would they risk it.
Sure failing to get something out at GENCON would be a disaster after hype, BUT if what they put out is poor quality done in a half assed manner because it was rushed, they will save nothing but piss off even more people who laid out money.I like the idea given about that a Gencon the put out a teaser, maybe a 60-90 page very basics to see how people respond, with the full rules to be out in ONE YEAR!
the change from 1st ed to 2nd was needed. there had been releases to update the rules and 2nd ed really codified everything in one book. Adam will vouch that I bitched, and still do, about 2nd the 3rd saying it was unneeded but since the basics stayed the same there was no damage to older campgins and SB's. This is a complete reworking without any warning or reason, and the pR they've done tyring to be cute is making it worse. Like a Doctor who's bedside manner includes comments about how the price of coffins are way down..
| QUOTE |
| Like a Doctor who's bedside manner includes comments about how the price of coffins are way down.. |
yeah, they could still do the teaser thing at gen con, then spend a few months trying to build the hype - novels, The Histroy of SR book, etc. Maybe even thow in some contests - Street names for the characters used in Shadowtalk, New creatures, etc. Heck the creature thing could all be handled online and automated - have the creatures posted, then voted on. Tke the top 50 or so and put them into a PDF downladable from SR. Thatd be cool to see your creature - and name - in an offical shadowrun product.
Stuff like that. Then build some more hype at the other big conventions, and have Hard coppies at Gama next year to give to the distributors, shop owners - game reviewers, etc.
Then blow the doors off Gencon 2006. Make Gencon all about Shadowrun.
Ambitious? Yeah. Maybe too much so. I might need some sleep.
| QUOTE |
| Like a Doctor who's bedside manner includes comments about how the price of coffins are way down.. |
yeah, they could still do the teaser thing at gen con, then spend a few months trying to build the hype - novels, The Histroy of SR book, etc. Maybe even thow in some contests - Street names for the characters used in Shadowtalk, New creatures, etc. Heck the creature thing could all be handled online and automated - have the creatures posted, then voted on. Tke the top 50 or so and put them into a PDF downladable from SR. Thatd be cool to see your creature - and name - in an offical shadowrun product.
Stuff like that. Then build some more hype at the other big conventions, and have Hard coppies at Gama next year to give to the distributors, shop owners - game reviewers, etc.
Then blow the doors off Gencon 2006. Make Gencon all about Shadowrun.
Ambitious? Yeah. Maybe too much so. I might need some sleep.
no you need a list of the devs email addresses....
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| .... and the Roswell UFO was actually full of leet space Nazis! Fear the Nazi space invaders! The sad part is that I know of someone who actually believes in the Sirius tale. |
Know come on, everybody knows that this is a lie.
Hitler had planned that but his Adjudant Borman stole his place so the lil Austrian painter was left with Eva Braun. One long look on Eva and Hitler took the poison pill....
Birdy (Awaiting conquest by the Blonde Space Amazones)
| QUOTE (Solstice) |
| no you need a list of the devs email addresses.... |
and a great example of how they have mishandled the pr. Even something like "just wait and see, we think you'll like it" would have been better than the nonsense which effectively says the sames thing but lacks manners. It also declares "we don't care what you think and we don't have to say sqat.
| QUOTE (frostPDP) |
| I live in NY, 30 minutes out of the city, and was in high school when it happened. I hear you could see the smoke from my town - I never got the chance to confirm it. I think the effect of comparing SR4 to 9/11 was to have both shock value and the valid point of being stunned by a first impression. Keep this in mind - When 9/11 first started, it looked like an accident. That is the defense for various actions taken after the first plane hit. (That, or our government intentionally did NOTHING. Which means we need impeachment proceedings for the entire Senate, Congress and Presidency.) When the other planes struck, they knew it was serious. That said, I don't think anyone intended to compare magnitude - Simply the incredible sensation of disbelief that something like 9/11 could actually happen. An actual SR4 is a shocker. Now, if someone tries to say that the disaster SR4 may or may not become is equal in damage to 9/11, someone needs a smack. |
I grew up in New York City, but strangely 9/11 had no effect on me. I sort of shrugged, and went about my routine.
Were you still living there on 9/11? I moved to Pennsylvania from New York a few months before then and still had many friends there. It meant something.
I fear this may be a good analogy of where we'll be in December, after the wreck of the game we loved, we're left looking at the changed skyline, unable to affect it, misisng what's gone, and resenting hell out of those who did it.
I fear this may be a good analogy of where we'll be in December, after the wreck of the game we loved, we're left looking at the changed skyline, unable to affect it, misisng what's gone, and resenting hell out of those who did it.
and, of course, we'll turn to armed violence as our primary solution.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Jun 7 2005, 10:14 PM) |
| and, of course, we'll turn to armed violence as our primary solution. |
I see you are still mired at Anger. Snow Fox had made it to Bargaining at the start of this thread and appears to already be moving onto Depression.
i'm taking the Hal Jordan path of grief acceptance.
Jesus. Lets just drop the 9/11 analogy and pretend it was never mentioned. Better we go back to the penis analogy.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| i'm taking the Hal Jordan path of grief acceptance. |
I rather like that path.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| and, of course, we'll turn to armed violence as our primary solution. |
if only we could get that organized...
So, I was just reading this thread, and, somehow, while reaching to scratch my head, deleted a post by frostPDP. Stupid 1-click deletion button.
I'd like to apologize to frostPDP, and assure him and everyone else that this was merely a Adam-is-a-klutz accident. I've included the full text of his post below [thankfully his post was cached.]
I'd like to apologize to frostPDP, and assure him and everyone else that this was merely a Adam-is-a-klutz accident. I've included the full text of his post below [thankfully his post was cached.]
| QUOTE |
| I live in NY, 30 minutes out of the city, and was in high school when it happened. I hear you could see the smoke from my town - I never got the chance to confirm it. I think the effect of comparing SR4 to 9/11 was to have both shock value and the valid point of being stunned by a first impression. Keep this in mind - When 9/11 first started, it looked like an accident. That is the defense for various actions taken after the first plane hit. (That, or our government intentionally did NOTHING. Which means we need impeachment proceedings for the entire Senate, Congress and Presidency.) When the other planes struck, they knew it was serious. That said, I don't think anyone intended to compare magnitude - Simply the incredible sensation of disbelief that something like 9/11 could actually happen. An actual SR4 is a shocker. Now, if someone tries to say that the disaster SR4 may or may not become is equal in damage to 9/11, someone needs a smack. |
Again, my apologies.
damn your damnable jackboots!
Goodness knows I'd love to be barefoot for the rest of my days.
[Well, except when dancing -- getting stepped on is no fun.]
[Well, except when dancing -- getting stepped on is no fun.]
And people wonder why ancient man favored the graceful woman; sandals.
hahahaha
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| i'm taking the Hal Jordan path of grief acceptance. |
Wrath of God and all that?
running around in tights
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox) |
| Were you still living there on 9/11? I moved to Pennsylvania from New York a few months before then and still had many friends there. It meant something. I fear this may be a good analogy of where we'll be in December, after the wreck of the game we loved, we're left looking at the changed skyline, unable to affect it, misisng what's gone, and resenting hell out of those who did it. |
My family was in NYC, and I was in Ithaca, NY, about 5 hours away. My "hometown" was still NYC, and it was where I grew up, and I was often going back there.
But, yeah, 9/11 didn't affect me emotionally at all. Skyline, visiting the wreckage with my family, looking at all the missing posters and memorials for dead guys, whatever...it just didn't affect me in the slightest.
No harm, no foul, Adam It happens to the best of us.
As for 9/11, it shocked me until I actually started getting interested in what happened. Then it stopped shocking me. I know I'm not the one asked, but I have to say one quick thing: This ain't no new world. We just caught up to the real one, not the post-USSR dream. Don't believe me? The WTC was bombed in 93 by the same group, the USS Cole was bombed, and our embassies in Africa were bombed before 9/11.
End ramble.
It happens to the best of us.As for 9/11, it shocked me until I actually started getting interested in what happened. Then it stopped shocking me. I know I'm not the one asked, but I have to say one quick thing: This ain't no new world. We just caught up to the real one, not the post-USSR dream. Don't believe me? The WTC was bombed in 93 by the same group, the USS Cole was bombed, and our embassies in Africa were bombed before 9/11.
End ramble.
I drive to New york most weeks. I have many friend there. some are policemen, two of whom were "missing" for a couple of days afterward. another friend was one of the poeple evacuated to Jersey from battery park.
It was rough trying to help friends who were missing loved ones and fearing the worst. For those of you who rmember Hot wheels, her b/f, now husband was among the missing, he was busy in manhattan and couldnt find a phone to call out. She had been going to the city that day and pulled over in the Bronx to look at the mess from a roof top.
So she saw the towers fall, heard about hundreds of rescue workers dead and then couldn't reach the man she loved. She was a mess and it was contagious. Other friends, husband and wife, he worked in queens she worked inm manhattan. they would car pool together. he could get ohme, lisa was treapped in Manhattan under the 'lockdown" for a couple of days.
To get back on topic That was horrible. It shook our world to it's core. our REAL WORLD, as po'ed as I am at 4th ed being rushed, boys and girls this is a GAME, by comparrison,
It don't mean nothin', not a thing, Not a thing!.
It was rough trying to help friends who were missing loved ones and fearing the worst. For those of you who rmember Hot wheels, her b/f, now husband was among the missing, he was busy in manhattan and couldnt find a phone to call out. She had been going to the city that day and pulled over in the Bronx to look at the mess from a roof top.
So she saw the towers fall, heard about hundreds of rescue workers dead and then couldn't reach the man she loved. She was a mess and it was contagious. Other friends, husband and wife, he worked in queens she worked inm manhattan. they would car pool together. he could get ohme, lisa was treapped in Manhattan under the 'lockdown" for a couple of days.
To get back on topic That was horrible. It shook our world to it's core. our REAL WORLD, as po'ed as I am at 4th ed being rushed, boys and girls this is a GAME, by comparrison,
It don't mean nothin', not a thing, Not a thing!.
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