Ok gang. people here should probably know my views of the up coming 4th ed, or havn't I been vocal enough?

I've been contacted privately by people who seem to be in the know saying that the real reason for the 4th Ed. Since it was done privately I'm not saying who, but since my voice has been pretty strident so far this more concilatory post should give you an idea that I trust the osurce to be the straight scoop. The bottom line is that while SR is selling well now, industry projections are in 4-5 years, it will not be and will die. The 4th ed is an attempt to carry over the audience from D&D and VtM to keep it going. So far so good.

Because of the time line they want to get as big a start as possible on drawing in that potential base before it hits that critical mark. It has a better chance of surviving if they use 4-5 years to build up the new base instead of 2-3, just like trying to fix Social Security in the US has a better chance of being saved if we start 30 years before it collapses instead of 20 or 10 years.

So far I'm ok with this. BUT

Fanpro's handling of this has been a complete and utter balls up. With less than 3 months to go, play testers are still reporting real problems with the system. Very few people are saying they like it and those who do are writing that they liked it 'But" and talk of issues.

The official word from Fanpro, rather than talking aboiut saving the gamne says that there are problems with 3rd ed that cannot be fixed, but they do not say what those problems are. Without them giving us examples of this brokeness in the system, we are left wondering what the flock they are talking about. We here play 3rd ed and while there might be a few issues (decking, does anyone really like it?) we do not consider it a fatal flaw, or we'd be off playing something else. As a result we feel cheated, lied to and then expected to pay lots of money fopr books we already have in early eds, to keep it going.(I won't go further on that See my other posts for my views on that.)

There are going to be what? 4 books to be released in very short order, mostly tying up 3rd ed and then there will be, in game time, a 5 year gap between the end of 3rd and the start of 4th ed. My belief if that Fanpro plans to use those sales to build up capital to carry the company forward while they wait for 4th ed to catch on. That makes sense as a business plan, but part of their business plan must be that no only will we, existing players, buy the 4th ed, but we will be the basis for the word of mouth to carry it over to the new market. That having been said we are here pretty much expressing a degree of ire rather than support and I think this is mostly coming from the way we have been treated by fanpro through its lack of valid PR.

That having been said, are you still with me, wouldn't it make snese for Fanpro to put off the release of 4th ed until 2006? In that time they can get rid of the bugs the playtesters are reporting(I really can't see them reworking, retesting and resetting the pages in the limited time left) and do a much better PR job with us, their base. As it stands I see no one not on the writing staff expressing excitment for hte 4th ed and a lot of us expressing active dislike. The delay, although through off their business plan by a year and reducing the development time before that critical date will give them a chance to develop a better product and have a much better chance to actually get our support for their long term plans?

Let's pretend that we're in Fanpro's mahogany-paneled board room of power, and that we're all wearing 1000 dollar Armani suits.

I don't see how one more year of this debacle they've termed a PR campaign is going to help get us veterans into the fold.

In the end the "PR campaign" won't mean jack squat. I can all but guarantee that everyone who's adamantly stated that they won't have anything to do with SR4 will be amongst the first people to buy a copy when it comes out.

The material itself, and the informed buzz spread by those who actually know what they're talking about instead of spewing out wild accusations and complaining about something they know absolutely nothing about, will decide whether or not it becomes popular.

It also wouldn't have mattered how Fanpro decided to release information about the game. Go take a look at any thread in the past that even hinted at a suggestion that there needs to be a 4th Edition, and look at the number of people who were already shouting how much they hated the idea and would never have anything to do with it.

Way too many people fear change.

Sorry Snow_Fox, it's too late. FanPro have been advertising and saying that SR4 is coming out at GenCon 2005. While I, like you, doubt that they will be able to put out a quality product in that time (leaving aside the issue of whether or not I like SR4), FanPro made a business decision and they are committed. Saying "Sorry guys, we meant GenCon 2006 not 2005 will lose them vast amounts of credibility in the marketplace. As I imagine that orders will have already been made by distributors, if FanPro puts off the release for a year, in 2006 all they will get is a bronx cheer from the same distributors when asked if they will order SR4.

From what you say I can see why FanPro took the gamble of bringing out SR4 at this years GenCon, but I don't think it's going to pay off. There isn't, in my opinion, time for proper playtesting or proper editing before BBB4 has to go to the printers. (To say nothing about the probability of getting a decent index!)

Even if the new rules are the best thing since sliced bread (and I know that my opinion is biased the other way), I doubt that they will be formatted or presented well due to lack of time.

Whoever in FanPro made the decision to create a totally new rules set in what seems to be inadequate time, will no doubt be facing corporate displeasure. That individual should count themselves lucky that Shadowrun is not real, as we all know what displeasing ones corporate masters leads too!

FanPro could still pull this out though. First they choose a cheaper print option for the book so that it falls apart in about 4 months. Say a spline glue designed to go brittle or biodegrade very quickly. Then they use the cash from sales of the first printing of SR4 to rewrite the SR4 rules and reprint the BBB, with the "errata" in place, just in time for the Christmas season.

Damn, I think I'm a marketing genius. Anyone know who at FanPro I should send my resume to?

I have my own theory about what the critical brokenness is in SR3 and if I am correct it dose not bode well for SR4.

SR is being marketed to ages 12 and up, this means that an average 12 year old has to be able to comprehend the rules. Assuming you start with a 12 year old of moderate intelligence with an interest in the idea of playing SR but no knowledge of the rules they will become so confused trying to learn SR3 rules that they will soon not be having fun and return to there video games.

In spite of there claims that SR will not be dubbed down if they want it to be comprehensible to an average 12 year old it will need to be for more simplistic. Of cause indications so far do not show this happening ether,

I still maintain that we should end up with a good (or at least playable) game, but it will loose a lot of tactical elements that I considered a strong point of the system.

I am only happy that I will be travelling for the first 6 months of SR 4, when I get back hopefully there will be a second printing, with errata because they will bring it out when they said and it will be to soon.

Edward

Yeah, they've commited themselves, I don't see it happening. It'd be nice if they had more time. But ehy got an idea, took a gamble and will run with it. I've always hoed that it would pay off, but the more I see about it, the more I see SR getting buried.

And Funk, you need to read back a couple months - we've all said quite plainly that we don't fear change - we question the need for a change of this magnatude. SR3 isn't so eff'd up that it requires a complete rewrite. change is not alwas good or neccessary, movement is not always forward.

I think that we should remember the a lot of us were the average 12 year olds when SR first came out (I was). I stuck with it, house ruled some things and kept others. My current game is pretty good.

With a change in rules, my game will be the same. I will look at the rules, use what's good, house rule the rest, and once again have fun at playing SR.

Fun is the key word.

that'll never happen. d20's firearm rules are even more batshit insane than SR's. they assault ninjas would be all "i spray autofire in a 15' by 15' area!" and the dev team would be like "please, sucka, i got +16 reflex save bonus. what."

You underestimate the deviousness of the WotC strike teams. The strike teams used Raygun's rules!

~J

they can't do that. ...wait, unless they turn into a 3rd-party d20 supplement. is nothing sacred?

Maybe people are giving up hope. And when it comes to

And the truth starts coming out again, just like in the pre-SR4 announcement threads. People are just complaining because they have to (and will despite crying that they won't) buy a new edition.

Boohoo.

This way be a bit off topic but, I'm confused as to what people don't like?
I mean I breaking up magic stats is gonna be great. Magic needs to be fixed more than anything else I can think of.
My group had allready been erasing the line between Rigger/Decker.
If Technomancers are grown up Otaku, then hopefully otaku will still be there.
I don't understand the roll mechanic, but it can't be as bad as D20.
I think this could be a great chance for SR to get away from the Immortal Elfs (The biggest problem in SR imho), and go back to dystopia and go back to the gibson hackery, fighting the system feeling.
Honestly what changes are so bad?

I'll buy SR4 as a tribute to SR2 and SR3 and all the enjoyment I've gained from those products. But if I'm not gaining enjoyment from the SR4 products (and so far I don't see why I would), I'm not going to buy them. Pretty simple, really! I buy games to have fun.

I can only tell three things for certain.

1: I will, despite my fears, dislikes, and other things (and I stand by them) , be buying SR4. This doesn't make me a turncoat to the no-SR4 cause (since I think under optimal conditions, such as a great product, everyone will be in favor of one), but it makes me a fair man - I want to see for myself what might be wrong.

2: Edge will be replaced by old-school Karma Pools. Plain and simple. Perhaps characters will get their essence - magic extra for Karma Pools (a possible edge mechanic I've seen out here), but regardless I like Karma Pools. Every 10 (or 20) GK, you can bet on a Karma Pool point.

3: I am still, despite being willing to buy SR4, terrified that I will pick it up, feeling nausea simply from the evil resonating from it, and read it to find it is horribly, horribly written. I will then simply keep it for entertainment value and storyline developments, and keep pushing SR 3 'till the day I die.

Those three thing said, I was shocked when I showed up...When? Feburary? And saw SR4 was coming out. In August. I said to myself "Do these guys really have it together?" [edit] Thanks Kagetenshi, for the reminder of when it was there. [end edit]

SSX4 is coming out in November (I could be wrong.) and I can damn well bet that it is either using SSX3's engine or has been in development for a long time. SR4, on the other hand, is using a brand new mechanic which is full of holes as many playtesters have 007'd us about and has already been discussed.

That said, delaying the SR4 release would make sense if it wasn't so close to the actual release date. If they realized a month ago there was a problem, postponing would be feasable. Now its just a little too late.

Oh, and telling us something less vague then a cup filled with tea leaves could....That'd really help defray some of the anxiety of FrostyNSO's penis analogy.

Great...the day before the Ides of March...are the fans Caesar?

As someone pointed out...I am a diehard Shadowrun fan. I will likely buy the 4th edition just because it is shadowrun despite all my complaining on these boards. However, it will probably end up like the reems of other "impulse" buys I've made on various d20 products and other systems. That is to say, it will likely get pawned off to a game store's used book shelf and I will download the free PDF off of a PTP. FanPro still gets its money from the core book, the game store makes a little more money off of me (who are the people I have no trouble supporting), and I have to have less shelf space. (although all the other supplements and sourcebooks will be taken off a PTP like I've started doing with the crap that LRG publishes for Earthdawn)

Actually it WAS on the Ides of March.

And it's about as funny as getting stabbed in the eye.

Yeah...sadly enough I had almost the same reaction to SR4 as I did to 9/11

i.e. WTF this has to be a joke...oh wait...it isn't

I may be young and naive, but yes, I'd say wait another year. Even another few months. I can't say I know anything about the gaming industry. I don't know how many book sales they'll lose by not opening in GenCon. But if it's a credibility question, are you going to be more credible saying honestly 'we've had to delay the game because we've had some unexpected delays' or trying to push a game that sucks. Not that I've heard of any gaming stores in the area boasting how they'll be carrying SR4 as soon as its available anyway.

Yes, wait. Make sure it's a product to be proud of. If this is meant to last 4-6 years, it makes sense to me to lose a small amount of profit for delaying 6-12 months and in exchange create a product that's of high enough quality that it will be popular in 4-6 years (and won't require v4.1 because of stacks of bugs they missed the first time around.) This sounds like the release of Windows 95, and just look where Microsoft is now... Oh wait, forget that.

As for the book, it will be on my birthday present list, I likely will get it, but I don't plan on buying it for myself unless it gets some awesome reviews here. I'm just cheap like that. However, unless I enjoy it, I will continue running and converting people to SR3.

Agree w/ hermit, frighteningly. Some of you take your gaming wayyyyy too seriously.

I am getting a little bit tired of my arguments being discounted for the following reasons...


1. It's a new edition and there will always be people who hate a new edition just because it is change.


> I would like to point out that when the SR4 announcement was first made I was hugely excited! Why? Because the change from 2 to 3 was a vast improvement. I was looking forward to the same kind of refinement. Fanpro should be calling this Shadowrun: 2070. Because it is not a 4th edition, it is a 1st edition.


2. I am flying off the handle and I don't know what I am talking about because I have not seen the complete rules.

>I have chosen to not see a number of Films based entirely on the preview. Thats what a preview is for, it is to get you interested in the product. So far the SR4 previews have been a complete disaster. Like the movie Titanic, I don't have to see it to know I won't like it.


I understand completely Fanpro's decision, and I understand why they made it, I simply disagree with there assessment that the SR3 rules had to be completely scrapped in order to bring in new fans.

ADD&D was transformed into D&D 3 without scrapping the entire system. They simply stripped it back to the basics and reworked it. Fanpro could have done the same thing. Called it SR4 and released a great product.

If they had done that though they would still be working on a FASA product and not a wholly original Fanpro product.

I can understand people being so moved by SR4 compared to 9/11.

After all, in my life, I know no one in NYC. I've never even been to the world trade centers. We've been the victims of terrorist attacks before (albeit, none on this scale). I have no friends who are likely to be called away on duty. The only difference it made in my life is the guards now have sidearms, and maybe Bush got reelected when otherwise he might not have (oh yeah, and the patriot act, which I fear). Shallow, I know, but that's how I've been impacted.

SR4 will strike significantly closer to home.

Is 9/11 more important? Sure. But I don't get down on people who hear about a massacre in Ethiopia or the riots in Venezuela and say 'meh, it won't effect me'.

Check out the US federal budget. It has affected you and will continue to affect you. That aside even when it is remote and has little direct impact on my life, wouldn't you find it in very poor taste for me to equate people dieing to rather mundane things? Something such as "When I came out in the morning to find my morning newspaper rain-soaked I felt like when your mother died. Surprised and disappointed."

In poor taste? Maybe. Inaccurate? Maybe not so much.

~J

I still cannot quite relate to how the mere mentioning of a rules revision did affect some forumites on that scale, but I guess that would have happened to me too if my favourite modding project closed down or my university suddelny would decide to demand fees - starting with your enrollment, no matter how far back it was.

But 9-11? Well, maybe it is because I came close to loing a family member there (turned out it wasn't his plane involved, thankfully), but I cannot help but find this comparison more than a bit obscene. But, well .... I guess, for a true fan, it could have been like that. Whatever.