Okay, it has come to my attention that some people have expressed their concern that a Heavy Pistol is much better at penetrating armor than an Assault Rifle or even some Machine Guns in the SR universe. I have a simple solution.
A. Increase all Armor Ratings by 50%
B. Rule that Melee Weapons, Rifles, Sniper Rifles, Slug Firing Shotguns, Assault Rifles and all Heavier weapons have the ability to ignore 1/3 of of armor and barriers. This would stack with APDS and AV rounds for these weapons would ignore 2/3 of the Armor Ratings
C. For the effects of armor stack just use the old armor ratings or multiply Quickness by 1.5 and penalize for every 3 points over.
Example a Lined Coat would be 6/3
One shot from an Ares Predator would net a 3M base
One shot from a Colt M23 would net a 4M base
Makes more sense, doesn't it.
Full Version: A matter of balance
A. No, that will break just about everything else.
B. Using fractions in a game is a bad idea and makes things overcomplicated, especially when you want to use them for all purposes.
C. See above.
If you really want to "fix" the problem, house rule it so that weapons in a higher category than Pistols use APDS rules against body armor by default.
B. Using fractions in a game is a bad idea and makes things overcomplicated, especially when you want to use them for all purposes.
C. See above.
If you really want to "fix" the problem, house rule it so that weapons in a higher category than Pistols use APDS rules against body armor by default.
The difficulty lies in the rounding of odd numbers, what do you propose?
| QUOTE |
A. Increase all Armor Ratings by 50% |
This wouldn't solve the problem in question. A predator would still have more penetrating power than an assault rifle. Instead, it would just make SR less deadly. Unless you mean it solves the problem by reducing the base TN for resisting damage to 2 for ALL weapons...
| QUOTE |
| B. Rule that Melee Weapons, Rifles, Sniper Rifles, Slug Firing Shotguns, Assault Rifles and all Heavier weapons have the ability to ignore 1/3 of of armor and barriers. This would stack with APDS and AV rounds for these weapons would ignore 2/3 of the Armor Ratings |
I'd consider it... But wouldn't it be easier just to up the damage codes on these weapons? I mean that's what it means...
| QUOTE |
C. For the effects of armor stack just use the old armor ratings or multiply Quickness by 1.5 and penalize for every 3 points over. |
This sounds a lot like suggestion A.
Seriously though, I think the best solution is just to subtract 1 or 2 from the damage codes of all the heavy pistols, and/or add 1 or 2 to the damage code of all the assault rifles. That would fix everything with only a modicum of fuss, and without having to multiply armor ratings depending on the situation or who's wearing it.
Maybe instead of changing everything but Heavy Pistols in order to "fix" Heavy Pistols -- from armor, to melee weapon armor penetration, to other firearm armor penetration, to the way armor stacks -- it would be easier to just, I dunno, lower the power of Heavy Pistols, if you think it's worth a house rule.
Maybe it would be easier but not quite as realistic. Sorry but A, B and C were meant to be used together, I was not trying to imply to that they were seperate rules. They are all one rule together.
What this does is is keep pistols and submachines guns as deadly as they should be versus unarmored targets but reduces there effectiveness versus armored targets.
If it easier for you to grasp just mulitply the armor rating only when a holdout, light pistol, heavy pistol and submachine gun is used against an armored target.
By the way if you don't know how to deal with partial fractions get someone to explain it to you. (said humorously)
What this does is is keep pistols and submachines guns as deadly as they should be versus unarmored targets but reduces there effectiveness versus armored targets.
If it easier for you to grasp just mulitply the armor rating only when a holdout, light pistol, heavy pistol and submachine gun is used against an armored target.
By the way if you don't know how to deal with partial fractions get someone to explain it to you. (said humorously)
Why wouldn't it be as realistic?
You could just increase the power of all the AR's. I think currently they are all around 7 or 8M? You could just make them S instead.
How many times have you heard of a man keep going after taking a pair .45ACP rounds? Now how many time have you heard of some junkie taking a full clip from a M-4 carbine and still keep moving? Now add in kevlar armor and suddenly the position is reversed. Why? becuase the jacket slows up the assault round so it doesn't blow throught the man, meanwhile the .45 ACP just give some bruises and cracked ribs. The simple fact is that to an unarmored average man a .223rem is dangerous and potentially lethal, but in some parts of the body simply blows through. However a .45ACP will do pretty horrific damage to an unarmored man even if it strikes a nonvital spot. A bigger hole is more blood loss, trauma, and shock.
I believe it is appropriate that a heavy pistol has moor penetrating power than an assault rifle round.
My understanding is that in terms of projectile mass and kinetic energy a modern heavy pistol beats an assault rifle, and that a modern heavy pistol dose better penetrate armour than an assault rifle round.
The only heavy weapons that have SR penetration lower than a heavy pistol are light machine guns; all the MMGs and HMGs have damage codes higher than heavy pistols
Would one of the resident gun nuts care to contradict or confirm this asesment.
Edward
My understanding is that in terms of projectile mass and kinetic energy a modern heavy pistol beats an assault rifle, and that a modern heavy pistol dose better penetrate armour than an assault rifle round.
The only heavy weapons that have SR penetration lower than a heavy pistol are light machine guns; all the MMGs and HMGs have damage codes higher than heavy pistols
Would one of the resident gun nuts care to contradict or confirm this asesment.
Edward
If you really wanted to fix it that way, I think it would be easiest to say armor values are increased by 50% against SMGs, pistols and unarmed attacks. That's much simplier than B.
I think you made C to compensate for A, and I really don't think A is necessary. An armor jacket simply shouldn't be that effective. If you drop A, C is unnecessary.
I think you made C to compensate for A, and I really don't think A is necessary. An armor jacket simply shouldn't be that effective. If you drop A, C is unnecessary.
| QUOTE (Edward @ Jun 6 2005, 03:26 PM) |
| I believe it is appropriate that a heavy pistol has moor penetrating power than an assault rifle round. My understanding is that in terms of projectile mass and kinetic energy a modern heavy pistol beats an assault rifle, and that a modern heavy pistol dose better penetrate armour than an assault rifle round. The only heavy weapons that have SR penetration lower than a heavy pistol are light machine guns; all the MMGs and HMGs have damage codes higher than heavy pistols Would one of the resident gun nuts care to contradict or confirm this asesment. Edward |
.......
Uh...I'm not even a gun expert, but I'll just say this.
Have you ever looked at a rifle cartridge next to a pistol cartridge?
Do so, and you will quickly get the right idea.
You also might want to do some quick internet research on ballistic armor, just so you have some basis to think about pistol round vs. ballistic armor.
The only ammunition I have ever handles was .22, .222 and 12 gauge shells
Images I have seen of assault rifle rounds and what I know of the bore size on heavy pistols (.45 inches, 9mm, .50 inches) will bare me out on projectile size,
There is also my vague memory of somebody saying something.
I am most willing to be proved wrong but I await somebody with some claim to knowledge the subject threw first hand reeding of published kinetic energy fingers or penetration experiments (or having performed said experiment in a scientific manner)
I know people of this type exist on the board, I have tried in vain to understand many of there threads.
Edward
Images I have seen of assault rifle rounds and what I know of the bore size on heavy pistols (.45 inches, 9mm, .50 inches) will bare me out on projectile size,
There is also my vague memory of somebody saying something.
I am most willing to be proved wrong but I await somebody with some claim to knowledge the subject threw first hand reeding of published kinetic energy fingers or penetration experiments (or having performed said experiment in a scientific manner)
I know people of this type exist on the board, I have tried in vain to understand many of there threads.
Edward
| QUOTE (lorthazar) |
| Now how many time have you heard of some junkie taking a full clip from a M-4 carbine and still keep moving? |
Um... Never?
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| Maybe instead of changing everything but Heavy Pistols in order to "fix" Heavy Pistols -- from armor, to melee weapon armor penetration, to other firearm armor penetration, to the way armor stacks -- it would be easier to just, I dunno, lower the power of Heavy Pistols, if you think it's worth a house rule. |
Because it's too simple and makes too much sense?
Or, you could just switch the power on AR's and HPs.
Currently, there's a rather amusing problem in the form of how power interacts with vehicle armor. See, if I put 5 points of armor on a vehicle, I know I'm absolutely immune to all assault rifle fire. BUT, if one of those dudes whips out an ares predator with ex-explosive rounds and starts plinking at me, it can actually damage me.
How will you deal with the fact that HPs will still shoot through walls better than ARs?
I repeat - The problem is HPs, NOT everything else. Lower all 9M HPs to 8 and you are DONE. Or you can make a Flavor Rule and say that most HPs in SR are loaded with hollow point rounds(From Cannon Companion). So they just tear apart unarmored people, but do jack when they hit serious armor.
Currently, there's a rather amusing problem in the form of how power interacts with vehicle armor. See, if I put 5 points of armor on a vehicle, I know I'm absolutely immune to all assault rifle fire. BUT, if one of those dudes whips out an ares predator with ex-explosive rounds and starts plinking at me, it can actually damage me.
How will you deal with the fact that HPs will still shoot through walls better than ARs?
I repeat - The problem is HPs, NOT everything else. Lower all 9M HPs to 8 and you are DONE. Or you can make a Flavor Rule and say that most HPs in SR are loaded with hollow point rounds(From Cannon Companion). So they just tear apart unarmored people, but do jack when they hit serious armor.
Heavy pistols are worse at penetrating armor already, if you're using your rifle properly, that is, using burst and autofire. When you compare the 9M pistol shot with the 11S rifle burst it becomes obvious which is superior, against everything but Hardened Armor.
| QUOTE |
*snip* (or having performed said experiment in a scientific manner) *snip* |
Not exactly scientific, but this sounds like a job for The Box O' Truth.
I particularly like #16, shooting through ballistic armour into clay. The handgun bullets were stopped but the rifle ones went straight through and took huge chunks out of the clay.
It's not that big of deal - one big shot or a lot of little ones. If you want strict realism, most SMGs should have the same damage codes as HPs and most ARs should have the same codes as sport rifles, but that'd just be sick. Is there any reason to fix the situation, other then percieved "realism?" Because the trolls screw up the realism.
I'd fix it by reducing HP power, if you must.
I'd fix it by reducing HP power, if you must.
| QUOTE (Johnnycache) |
| It's not that big of deal - one big shot or a lot of little ones. If you want strict realism, most SMGs should have the same damage codes as HPs and most ARs should have the same codes as sport rifles, but that'd just be sick. Is there any reason to fix the situation, other then percieved "realism?" Because the trolls screw up the realism. I'd fix it by reducing HP power, if you must. |
You took the words right out of my mouth.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| If you really want to "fix" the problem, house rule it so that weapons in a higher category than Pistols use APDS rules against body armor by default. |
So you're, like, agreeing with me? Holy shit.
None of this has ever been a big issue in our gaming group. However, to be constructive, I think the easiest house rule would be to knock the power down a notch as well. I hate excessive math and house rules based on realism in my game. That's just me.
Well, these rules had done well in playtest, but then again our campaign you see almost no rifles of anykind, so it was simple matter to just multiply the armor rating for everything. However I do agree that for most campaigns it would be simpler to multiply armor by 1.5 only when fired on by hand guns (holdouts, lights, heavies, and SMG's). If that is too much math for you I suggest the TWERPS system.
"In order to lower the effective Power of handguns, I'm instead going to multiply armor ratings, and then let everything but handguns ignore a percentage of some of that armor. Then I'm going to change how armor stacks, too, just to make sure everything's nice and complicated."
"Then I'm going to post these rules on-line, and ask for opinions, with a disclaimer that only people with something positive to say about my rules is allowed to say anything at all. If anyone suggests that, instead of increasing armor and the power of everything but handguns, I simply decrease the power of handguns? I'll call them stupid. Because math is fun, and we should do extra math whenever we can. Simplicity is for chumps!"
"Then I'm going to post these rules on-line, and ask for opinions, with a disclaimer that only people with something positive to say about my rules is allowed to say anything at all. If anyone suggests that, instead of increasing armor and the power of everything but handguns, I simply decrease the power of handguns? I'll call them stupid. Because math is fun, and we should do extra math whenever we can. Simplicity is for chumps!"
Modesitt
If you switch the power on AR and HP you really stuff things up. Most notably because that would mean that a AR has higher power than a LMG.
Critias
The original poster did not say that only positive posts where required, he said that only constructive posts where required, (in a strict reading only constructive posts buy people with criticism). This means that arguments should be properly thought out and explained, without insults or more than the tiniest hint of sarcasm, and I am not detecting the post where he insulted you personally or your position, although I share your position there is a case for increasing armor and power on all but handguns, specifically to maintain the lethality of handguns in relation to unarmored targets.
so pleas, put down the flame thrower and try to think and reason logically, if something doesn’t make sense then simply say so or ask for an explanation, no need for the agro.
Edward
If you switch the power on AR and HP you really stuff things up. Most notably because that would mean that a AR has higher power than a LMG.
Critias
The original poster did not say that only positive posts where required, he said that only constructive posts where required, (in a strict reading only constructive posts buy people with criticism). This means that arguments should be properly thought out and explained, without insults or more than the tiniest hint of sarcasm, and I am not detecting the post where he insulted you personally or your position, although I share your position there is a case for increasing armor and power on all but handguns, specifically to maintain the lethality of handguns in relation to unarmored targets.
so pleas, put down the flame thrower and try to think and reason logically, if something doesn’t make sense then simply say so or ask for an explanation, no need for the agro.
Edward
| QUOTE |
| If you switch the power on AR and HP you really stuff things up. Most notably because that would mean that a AR has higher power than a LMG. |
AR's already have higher powers than LMGs. This just means they are now equal to MMGs. It's not going to stuff things up more than they are already.
Previous discussion of this topic with alternate damage system.
| QUOTE (Johnnycache) |
| It's not that big of deal - one big shot or a lot of little ones. If you want strict realism, most SMGs should have the same damage codes as HPs and most ARs should have the same codes as sport rifles, but that'd just be sick. Is there any reason to fix the situation, other then percieved "realism?" Because the trolls screw up the realism. I'd fix it by reducing HP power, if you must. |
I've done that before. I liked it, but I think that Raygun's system is more refined. In any case, I actually like hyper deadliness of drama in my games, but unfortunately I also know some people who become drama queens if their characters get wasted due to a single miscalculation.
So, I dunno. If the gaming table were filled up with replicas of me, I'd be all for that, just because more deadly realism equals more better.
grumble. nobody brings up trolls when it comes time to talk about light pistols' crappy damage codes.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| grumble. nobody brings up trolls when it comes time to talk about light pistols' crappy damage codes. |
That's because no one uses light pistols unless they specifically want to make an effeminite character.
Y'all might want to check out Dave's (he runs the new Street Samurai Catalog website) system for autofire. They work like this:
1. Decide number of bullets being fired. Tabulate recoil modifiers.
2. Roll respective skill; tabulate successes.
3. Subtract number of bullets from successes. If the successes are less than or equal to the number of bullets, the number of bullets is equal to the successes; if more, the damage code is staged up by one as normal.
I intend on implementing this system, with a few modification: Damage is resisted seperately for each shot, two successes are required for each additional bullet, and extra successes only apply to the first shot fired. The old SR1 method of simply counting each as a seperate shot also works, but it takes forever to actually get anything done.
1. Decide number of bullets being fired. Tabulate recoil modifiers.
2. Roll respective skill; tabulate successes.
3. Subtract number of bullets from successes. If the successes are less than or equal to the number of bullets, the number of bullets is equal to the successes; if more, the damage code is staged up by one as normal.
I intend on implementing this system, with a few modification: Damage is resisted seperately for each shot, two successes are required for each additional bullet, and extra successes only apply to the first shot fired. The old SR1 method of simply counting each as a seperate shot also works, but it takes forever to actually get anything done.
As a self-proclaimed "Firearms Enthusiast", I also agree that the rules as written make little to no sense at all. (They also keep trying to give me an aneurysm, but haven't succeeded yet... 
)
My best recommendation would be to simply lower the damage code for heavy pistols to 6M. Then, they are still lower than SMGs and ARs, and penetrate about the same as light pistols, but with more damage due to the larger caliber.
The hardest one to deal with is the discrepency between ARs and LMGs. LMGs are simply designed for sustained fire, for longer periods of time. I personally don't believe that they do more damage in real life, considering they tend to fire the same round as the average AR, but that point is arguable. But perhaps it should be 8S for LMGs, 9S for MMGs, and 10S for HMGs. That is fairly easy to accept, and requires minimal change.
However, if one were to change the LMG to 8S, one would also have to increase the light sporting rifle from 7S to 8S.
If anyone is curious about soft body armor, here is a good site to start with:
BulletProofME.com
And for some photos:
BulletProofME.com Photos
So, as a recap, here are my suggestions for damage codes:
Hold-out: 4L
Light Pistol: 6L
Heavy Pistol: 6M
SMG: 6M or 7M
Assault Rifle: 8M
LMG: 8S
MMG: 9S
HMG: 10S
Again, not much change from the current damage codes, but steps up the damage more realistically. Just my opinion, and I am far from an expert on the subject.
Hope this helps!
) My best recommendation would be to simply lower the damage code for heavy pistols to 6M. Then, they are still lower than SMGs and ARs, and penetrate about the same as light pistols, but with more damage due to the larger caliber.
The hardest one to deal with is the discrepency between ARs and LMGs. LMGs are simply designed for sustained fire, for longer periods of time. I personally don't believe that they do more damage in real life, considering they tend to fire the same round as the average AR, but that point is arguable. But perhaps it should be 8S for LMGs, 9S for MMGs, and 10S for HMGs. That is fairly easy to accept, and requires minimal change.
However, if one were to change the LMG to 8S, one would also have to increase the light sporting rifle from 7S to 8S.
If anyone is curious about soft body armor, here is a good site to start with:
BulletProofME.com
And for some photos:
BulletProofME.com Photos
So, as a recap, here are my suggestions for damage codes:
Hold-out: 4L
Light Pistol: 6L
Heavy Pistol: 6M
SMG: 6M or 7M
Assault Rifle: 8M
LMG: 8S
MMG: 9S
HMG: 10S
Again, not much change from the current damage codes, but steps up the damage more realistically. Just my opinion, and I am far from an expert on the subject.
Hope this helps!
One more point...
I keep damage from bullets, even if stopped by armor, as physical damage. In my mind, this represents the bruising and possibly cracked ribs that will be bothering the character for a while.
If it was stun damage, the pain and damage effects would go away after an hour's rest. If the damage was physical, it would take anywhere from a half day of rest on average, to maybe a week, depending on the damage level.
And yes, I would consider a Moderate wound reasonable for severe bruising and a few cracked ribs. It won't kill you, but it'll sure slow you down, and make it harder to concentrate. It's all in how you want to roleplay the wound level.
Of course, this only furthers the controversy around clubs and stun damage. An ASP collabsible baton can certainly break bones, and can also kill very easily. But that arguement is better left for another day...
I keep damage from bullets, even if stopped by armor, as physical damage. In my mind, this represents the bruising and possibly cracked ribs that will be bothering the character for a while.
If it was stun damage, the pain and damage effects would go away after an hour's rest. If the damage was physical, it would take anywhere from a half day of rest on average, to maybe a week, depending on the damage level.
And yes, I would consider a Moderate wound reasonable for severe bruising and a few cracked ribs. It won't kill you, but it'll sure slow you down, and make it harder to concentrate. It's all in how you want to roleplay the wound level.
Of course, this only furthers the controversy around clubs and stun damage. An ASP collabsible baton can certainly break bones, and can also kill very easily. But that arguement is better left for another day...
| QUOTE (Edward) |
| The only ammunition I have ever handles was .22, .222 and 12 gauge shells Images I have seen of assault rifle rounds and what I know of the bore size on heavy pistols (.45 inches, 9mm, .50 inches) will bare me out on projectile size, There is also my vague memory of somebody saying something. I am most willing to be proved wrong but I await somebody with some claim to knowledge the subject threw first hand reeding of published kinetic energy fingers or penetration experiments (or having performed said experiment in a scientific manner) I know people of this type exist on the board, I have tried in vain to understand many of there threads. Edward |
Rifles have longer barrels compared to handguns and their cartriges contain more powder than handgun bullets do.
More powder means a larger explosion meaning that more force will be applied to the bullet. A longer barrel means that the bullet will be pushed by the explosion for a longer distance meaning that more work will be applied to the bullet.
The rifle bullet with always have more kenetic energy for these two reasons.
As for penetration there is an important rule to remember. Pressure = force/area. You can apply as much force to a surface as you like but unless you provide enough presure you won't be able to penetrate it. This is why it is realitivly easy to cut off someone's arm with a sharp sword by very, very difficult to do so with a slegehammer
The larger the area of a bullet the less pressure it applies and the less able it will be to penetrate armor. This is the entire point behind APDS and other armor piercing ammo. With APDS the bullet is much smaller than the standard round for the weapon and sabot is needed so that it will fit in the barrel.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| "In order to lower the effective Power of handguns, I'm instead going to multiply armor ratings, and then let everything but handguns ignore a percentage of some of that armor. Then I'm going to change how armor stacks, too, just to make sure everything's nice and complicated." "Then I'm going to post these rules on-line, and ask for opinions, with a disclaimer that only people with something positive to say about my rules is allowed to say anything at all. If anyone suggests that, instead of increasing armor and the power of everything but handguns, I simply decrease the power of handguns? I'll call them stupid. Because math is fun, and we should do extra math whenever we can. Simplicity is for chumps!" |
Actually for those people who refuse to know (above included) constructive criticism is a form of feedback where you make suggestion on how this could be improved Simply saying "No that is unbalancing.", "No that is stupid." or "No that is ridiculous." is a useless waste of time, electricty and harddrive space, much live the post qouted.
If you can't play nice, why should people listen to you.
if you're going to post drivel, why should people be nice? come on, your argument for "realism" is that more people have died from two .45 slugs than have died from a clipful of .223. if you'd said something like "i want to keep the Power of the weapon the same because the wound channel created by a .45 slug is wider than that created by a .223", then discussion could have continued. instead, you backed up your concerns about a loss of realism with an unbelievably exaggerated 'example'.
if you really want to make SR damage codes realistic, you need to rebuild them from the ground up. quick fixes are either non-quick or non-realistic.
if you really want to make SR damage codes realistic, you need to rebuild them from the ground up. quick fixes are either non-quick or non-realistic.
| QUOTE (Shrapnel) |
| I personally don't believe that they do more damage in real life, considering they tend to fire the same round as the average AR, but that point is arguable. |
I don't see how it's arguable. IRL, most LMGs fire the exact same cartridges as the assault rifles do in the militaries they are used in, and they have barrels of just about the same length as assault rifles. Unless you think the LMG/SAW/LSW concept(s) is/are going to undergo serious changes by the 2060s, there really is no reason for LMGs to do more damage than ARs.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| The rifle bullet with always have more kenetic energy for these two reasons. |
I'm sure you know yourself that that's simply not true. Short list of some handgun calibers common loadings for which create more kinetic energy at the muzzles of the handguns they are fired from than 5.56x45mm NATO/.223 Remington out of a rifle barrel (M855 62gr @ 3025fps, 1260ft-lbs): .440 COR-BON (240gr @ 1800fps, 1727ft-lbs), .454 Casull /300gr @ 1500fps, 1500ft-lbs), .460 S&W (200gr @ 2250fps, 2248ft-lbs), .475 (370gr @ 1495fps, 1840ft-lbs) & .500 Linebaugh (500gr @ 1200fps, 1599ft-lbs), .480 Ruger (325gr @ 1409fps, 1433ft-lbs), .50 AE (300gr @ 1579fps, 1568ft-lbs), and .500 S&W (440gr @ 1671fps, 2729ft-lbs).
Few come close to a 7.62x51mm/.308 Winchester (e.g. 150gr @ 2750fps, 2520ft-lbs) and .500 S&W is pretty much the only caliber designed for handguns which creates more KE than that. You do need an extremely powerful handgun to match a rather weak rifle for KE, though, so in general terms you could say that rifles tend to outmach handguns by a fair margin on this scale, whatever you wish to make of that.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
I don't see how it's arguable. IRL, most LMGs fire the exact same cartridges as the assault rifles do in the militaries they are used in, and they have barrels of just about the same length as assault rifles. Unless you think the LMG/SAW/LSW concept(s) is/are going to undergo serious changes by the 2060s, there really is no reason for LMGs to do more damage than ARs. |
It seems you and I are on the same page concerning ARs and LMGs.
One arguement I can think of is the fact that most ARs these days are using a 14.5" or 16" barrel, as opposed to the traditional 20" barrel. The reduced velocity could explain the lower damage code when compared to LMGs, but then you would have to differentiate between carbine length and full lenght rifles.
Even though I prefer to stay as close to the original rules as possible, with a few minor house rules, Raygun has a great system concerning the differences in range and damage due to barrel length. Definitely some good ideas in there, even though I don't want to overhaul the game quite that much just yet.
Another arguement, even though it has no basis in real life, is the fact that Shadowrun tends to base damage on the weapon size and concealability. Therefore, since the LMG is bigger than the AR, it must do more damage, right?!?
On the other hand, a valid arguement to support the opinion that ARs and LMGs should have the same damage code could be found in the 2nd Edition Street Samurai Catalog, pg. 53. The Steyr AUG-CLS Weapon System, which is a rifle package capable of changing between a SMG, a sporting rifle, an AR, and a LMG. The odd thing is that the AR and LMG both do 8M, but the sporting rifle does 7S!!! I wonder how that works...
Another question concerning this weapon package is the question of what kind of ammo it uses. Does the ammo required change, depending on the configuration? Or would you just label it "Steyr AUG Ammo", and use it only for that specific weapon, regardless of configuration?
Sometimes I think they did things like this on purpose, just to upset me...
So it doesn't seem unnecessarily complicated to anyone else, when the core idea is to power down pistols, to, instead, power up (everything - pistols)?
And the argument that pistols wouldn't be lethal enough versus unarmored foes is just kind of silly. Dropping a heavy pistol to 6M (for instance) would still make it very difficult for anyone foolish enough to not wear any armor in Shadowrun (which happens real often, I'm sure) to soak damage from a pistol shot. Leaving light pistols at 6L still leaves them difficult to soak (though weaker than a heavy pistol), and such a change (6M for heavy pistol) would also help bridge the largely artificial and wholly-too-wide gap between pistol damage ratings.
I don't understand the logic behind this suggestion, is all. The end result you're wanting is weaker pistols. The method you've come up with for making this happen is stronger everything else (including armor, melee, you name it). It's like you say down trying to come up with the most complicated way to fix it.
That's like saying "Hmm. My front driver's side tire looks a little low on air. I don't want that to make me crash. Instead of filling it up, though, I'll slash all my other tires and empty my gas tank. There's no way I'll get in an accident now!"
And the argument that pistols wouldn't be lethal enough versus unarmored foes is just kind of silly. Dropping a heavy pistol to 6M (for instance) would still make it very difficult for anyone foolish enough to not wear any armor in Shadowrun (which happens real often, I'm sure) to soak damage from a pistol shot. Leaving light pistols at 6L still leaves them difficult to soak (though weaker than a heavy pistol), and such a change (6M for heavy pistol) would also help bridge the largely artificial and wholly-too-wide gap between pistol damage ratings.
I don't understand the logic behind this suggestion, is all. The end result you're wanting is weaker pistols. The method you've come up with for making this happen is stronger everything else (including armor, melee, you name it). It's like you say down trying to come up with the most complicated way to fix it.
That's like saying "Hmm. My front driver's side tire looks a little low on air. I don't want that to make me crash. Instead of filling it up, though, I'll slash all my other tires and empty my gas tank. There's no way I'll get in an accident now!"
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| if you're going to post drivel, why should people be nice? come on, your argument for "realism" is that more people have died from two .45 slugs than have died from a clipful of .223. if you'd said something like "i want to keep the Power of the weapon the same because the wound channel created by a .45 slug is wider than that created by a .223", then discussion could have continued. instead, you backed up your concerns about a loss of realism with an unbelievably exaggerated 'example'. if you really want to make SR damage codes realistic, you need to rebuild them from the ground up. quick fixes are either non-quick or non-realistic. |
Another perfect example of a useless post thank you mfb for being kind enough to show us how to identify them.
okay, now you're either just trolling, or just not paying attention.
Or maybe both at once. Don't underestimate his intelligence by assuming he can't multitask. Jerk.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||||
I don't see how it's arguable. IRL, most LMGs fire the exact same cartridges as the assault rifles do in the militaries they are used in, and they have barrels of just about the same length as assault rifles. Unless you think the LMG/SAW/LSW concept(s) is/are going to undergo serious changes by the 2060s, there really is no reason for LMGs to do more damage than ARs.
I'm sure you know yourself that that's simply not true. Short list of some handgun calibers common loadings for which create more kinetic energy at the muzzles of the handguns they are fired from than 5.56x45mm NATO/.223 Remington out of a rifle barrel (M855 62gr @ 3025fps, 1260ft-lbs): .440 COR-BON (240gr @ 1800fps, 1727ft-lbs), .454 Casull /300gr @ 1500fps, 1500ft-lbs), .460 S&W (200gr @ 2250fps, 2248ft-lbs), .475 (370gr @ 1495fps, 1840ft-lbs) & .500 Linebaugh (500gr @ 1200fps, 1599ft-lbs), .480 Ruger (325gr @ 1409fps, 1433ft-lbs), .50 AE (300gr @ 1579fps, 1568ft-lbs), and .500 S&W (440gr @ 1671fps, 2729ft-lbs). Few come close to a 7.62x51mm/.308 Winchester (e.g. 150gr @ 2750fps, 2520ft-lbs) and .500 S&W is pretty much the only caliber designed for handguns which creates more KE than that. You do need an extremely powerful handgun to match a rather weak rifle for KE, though, so in general terms you could say that rifles tend to outmach handguns by a fair margin on this scale, whatever you wish to make of that. |
I don't know much about guns, but that makes sense to me. It's also a major incentive for your PCs to use revolvers, as they're the only weaponry which chamber the absurdly large .50 and .500 rounds. Also, in my game, I'm just going to merge the pistol and SMG skill for the sake of making their lives easier, and because all but the most insanely large of pistols are freakishly puny, it's the only way they'll ever use one.
| QUOTE (Shrapnel) |
| One arguement I can think of is the fact that most ARs these days are using a 14.5" or 16" barrel, as opposed to the traditional 20" barrel. |
It might seem like that to someone from the US because a very large part of the US Armed Forces these days seems to be armed with M4s of some kind, and the much-discussed XM8 comes with a 12.5" barrel in the standard configuration. I'd still wager that full-length M16s are more common than M4s in the infantry + MC, possibly more common than all the shortened assault rifles put together.
Elsewhere in the world it's no contest. The standard infantry weapons around the world are still full-size assault rifles with 18-22" barrels, while the carbines are for more specialized or non-infantry units. The ~16" barrels seen on the new standard AK models seem relatively short in comparison to most Western assault rifles. Also note that the most well-known LMG in the Western world, the FN Minimi/M249 SAW, has an 18.3" barrel.
| QUOTE (Shrapnel) |
| Therefore, since the LMG is bigger than the AR, it must do more damage, right?!? |
I'd wager that's just about exactly what they were thinking when they put down those Damage Codes.
| QUOTE (Spastic Teapot) |
| It's also a major incentive for your PCs to use revolvers, as they're the only weaponry which chamber the absurdly large .50 and .500 rounds. |
Well now, .440 COR-BON and .50 AE were specifically designed for use in semi-automatic pistols.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||||
It might seem like that to someone from the US because a very large part of the US Armed Forces these days seems to be armed with M4s of some kind, and the much-discussed XM8 comes with a 12.5" barrel in the standard configuration. I'd still wager that full-length M16s are more common than M4s in the infantry + MC, possibly more common than all the shortened assault rifles put together. Elsewhere in the world it's no contest. The standard infantry weapons around the world are still full-size assault rifles with 18-22" barrels, while the carbines are for more specialized or non-infantry units. The ~16" barrels seen on the new standard AK models seem relatively short in comparison to most Western assault rifles. Also note that the most well-known LMG in the Western world, the FN Minimi/M249 SAW, has an 18.3" barrel.
I'd wager that's just about exactly what they were thinking when they put down those Damage Codes. |
You are absolutely correct about the US going with the shorter carbines. I hate the idea, but I don't call the shots. I personally prefer the 20" AR15, preferably an HBAR, or my StG-58. The velocity you sacrifice by going to a shorter barrel does not make up for the lighter weight, in my opinion. Their only real benifit is Close Quarters Combat, but even then a longer barrel isn't that much of a disadvantage.
So, would you recommend having both the AR and LMG damage codes be set at 8M, or 7S? Or perhaps even 8S? This would also apply to the light sporting rifle.
The more I think about it, though, I think the HP should be set at 6M. That fairly accurately supports the idea that good armor should be able to stop it. Of course, this is where the number of successes comes into play. Your roll determines how well you were able to place your shot, and bypass or penetrate the armor. It's all about role-playing, in the end. I don't personally support random hit locations.
Any more thoughts? You seem to have some good experience in this area.
if you classify ARs as 5.56 and thereabouts, and expand the sport rifles to include battle rifles in the 7.62 range, the split makes more sense.
Doesn't that get a little wonky with range, though? You've got the AKs and SKSs and stuff with a much better accuracy-at-range than the M-16s and whatnot, with an assault rifle/battle rifle split like that.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| if you classify ARs as 5.56 and thereabouts, and expand the sport rifles to include battle rifles in the 7.62 range, the split makes more sense. |
That is where you have the 7S/9S split.
The 7S for the LMG, and light sporting rifle, in my opinion reflects the 5.56mm cartridge.
The 9S for the MMG, and the medium sporting rifle, would be for the 7.62 NATO. This would accurately reflect the M60 and M240 as being a MMG. I believe Raygun also supports this theory. I've noticed all of his 7.62 NATO Battle Rifles are currently 9S.
I honestly have no idea what caliber the HMG would be. My first guess would be .50 BMG, but the 10S is too low, and that caliber has been covered by the Barrett 121, which is 14D. (A way more accurate damage rating for the .50 BMG, in my opinion.)
So, what caliber would do 10S damage? Keep in mind that a shotgun slug, probably 12 gauge, is also listed as doing 10S damage. I'm stumped on this one...
I would definitely not suggest setting ARs and LMGs at Serious with non-expanding/fragmenting bullets. What Power you set them at depends heavily on whether and how you're going to change the Damage Codes of other weapons in the game, and on any possible house rules for combat. Assuming no other changes to the game than fiddling with Damage Codes, 9M might be in order, perhaps 8M if you plan drop HPs to 6M.
I personally consider light Sporting Rifles to be closer to something like the .30-30 Winchester than .223 Remington. That way I don't have to fret too much about the weaker penetration and higher Damage Level.
I personally consider light Sporting Rifles to be closer to something like the .30-30 Winchester than .223 Remington. That way I don't have to fret too much about the weaker penetration and higher Damage Level.
| QUOTE (Shrapnel) |
| You seem to have some good experience in this area. |
This area = making up house rules for combat in RPGs? Yeah, I got some.
I don't think I've got any thoughts that you can't find doing a search with my name and "penetration", "damage codes", etc., on this forum.
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