Full Version: Role-playing vs roll-playing
| QUOTE (Polaris) |
| In addition, your system Cain encourages people to play characters much like themselves (for what should be obvious reasons) at least socially....and that leads to chairactures which you claim to hate. -Polaris |
Hmm. I wonder if there's any money in being a chairacture artist? Probably not.
In any case, I fail to see how this leads to caricatures, unless his playing group is made up of people with ridiculously exaggerated personalities.
I am ambivalent about social skills, myself. On the one hand, I think someone who spends points on them should get the advantage for them, and someone who has high social skills in real life shouldn't be able to spend most of his points on combat skills and just "roleplay" his interactions with NPCs in spite of a low Charisma stat and few if any social skills.
On the other hand, I cringe at the quirky little variations in how PCs and NPCs react to each other reduced to nothing but dice rolls. And the worst munchkins of all are the ones who go "Hey, I rolled 9 successes. Guess your elf shaman's gonna be sleeping with me, huh?"
Personally, I would tend to use dice rolls for things like shaking down a snitch, working contacts for information about someone, trying to get a better price for the car you just stole, and trying to blend in at a ganger house party. When characters are roleplaying, I don't like rolling dice - I will take into consideration how "in character" they are behaving, how good they are roleplaying, and what their character's actual Charisma really is. Someone who is playing a 2 Charisma character like a face will get snubbed a lot and penalized for bad roleplaying.
If someone has a low Charisma, they can be articulate, but they won't get the same positive reaction that someone with a high Charisma would get. They will get ignored or given the cold shoulder a lot, and will have to work and hustle to get the reaction a high Charisma character can get with a smile and saying hello.
But note that low Charisma characters just lack an ability to connect with others without serious effort - they don't have to be pimply-faced geeks with bad teeth who pick their nose and have B.O. Hell, the old ork street samurai character, with a Charisma of 1, was described as having charming good looks and a cultured accent. But that ork would probably come off as oily, or phony, or have bad vibes, and have to work a lot harder to keep up his contacts than a face would.
For something like Cain's troll, I would probably let the character succeed, since it was specified that he was doing it in character (as opposed to demonstrating smooth social abilities), and really roleplaying it. For something like Shadow's character, I would probably let him role dice, at least for a generic bar babe. If it was a female NPC who had a well-established personality, then it would probably depend more on that than on dice rolls.
For PCs, as well as NPCs who have distinctive personalities, I don't let the dice override the character. I would never let a character determine another character's actions with a dice roll. A dice roll affects the flavor text that I use to accompany the first character's roleplaying, like "You can tell he's really sincere about this" or "He looms over you, suddenly terrifying in his rage, and with a jolt of shock you realize that he might really kill you if you don't tell him about the gangers you were hanging out with earlier." But I still let the other character decide how his/her character reacts to it. For NPCs, I simply keep in mind that social skills are NOT like magic spells. You might convince a hostile company man that you don't really know anything, but you aren't going to convince him, just by talking to him over a drink, to let you into the corporate compound and past the alarms as a personal favor. If an NPC is suicidally loyal to another NPC, no roll will be high enough to change that - if someone combined great roleplaying with a good dice roll, though, they might convince them they are that NPC's long-lost relative and desparately need a private meeting.
But it's one of the difficult things - balancing player and NPC autonomy versus making social skills actually count for something.
On the other hand, I cringe at the quirky little variations in how PCs and NPCs react to each other reduced to nothing but dice rolls. And the worst munchkins of all are the ones who go "Hey, I rolled 9 successes. Guess your elf shaman's gonna be sleeping with me, huh?"
Personally, I would tend to use dice rolls for things like shaking down a snitch, working contacts for information about someone, trying to get a better price for the car you just stole, and trying to blend in at a ganger house party. When characters are roleplaying, I don't like rolling dice - I will take into consideration how "in character" they are behaving, how good they are roleplaying, and what their character's actual Charisma really is. Someone who is playing a 2 Charisma character like a face will get snubbed a lot and penalized for bad roleplaying.
If someone has a low Charisma, they can be articulate, but they won't get the same positive reaction that someone with a high Charisma would get. They will get ignored or given the cold shoulder a lot, and will have to work and hustle to get the reaction a high Charisma character can get with a smile and saying hello.
But note that low Charisma characters just lack an ability to connect with others without serious effort - they don't have to be pimply-faced geeks with bad teeth who pick their nose and have B.O. Hell, the old ork street samurai character, with a Charisma of 1, was described as having charming good looks and a cultured accent. But that ork would probably come off as oily, or phony, or have bad vibes, and have to work a lot harder to keep up his contacts than a face would.
For something like Cain's troll, I would probably let the character succeed, since it was specified that he was doing it in character (as opposed to demonstrating smooth social abilities), and really roleplaying it. For something like Shadow's character, I would probably let him role dice, at least for a generic bar babe. If it was a female NPC who had a well-established personality, then it would probably depend more on that than on dice rolls.
For PCs, as well as NPCs who have distinctive personalities, I don't let the dice override the character. I would never let a character determine another character's actions with a dice roll. A dice roll affects the flavor text that I use to accompany the first character's roleplaying, like "You can tell he's really sincere about this" or "He looms over you, suddenly terrifying in his rage, and with a jolt of shock you realize that he might really kill you if you don't tell him about the gangers you were hanging out with earlier." But I still let the other character decide how his/her character reacts to it. For NPCs, I simply keep in mind that social skills are NOT like magic spells. You might convince a hostile company man that you don't really know anything, but you aren't going to convince him, just by talking to him over a drink, to let you into the corporate compound and past the alarms as a personal favor. If an NPC is suicidally loyal to another NPC, no roll will be high enough to change that - if someone combined great roleplaying with a good dice roll, though, they might convince them they are that NPC's long-lost relative and desparately need a private meeting.
But it's one of the difficult things - balancing player and NPC autonomy versus making social skills actually count for something.
Person 404,
That's easy. There are two types of characters that are easiest to play. There are those that are exactly like yourself and there are those that are chairactures.
The problem is that if it is your real life social skills that matter in the game, then you have absolutely no incentive to play someone different from yourself. If you do (or are forced) to play someone different from yourself, then you play a chairacture because at least that way you don't have to worry (so much) about the game/real-life skill dichotomy. It also tends to encourage gun-bunnies (another type so-called 'real' roleplayers often claim to hate) because physical skills are always determined by a die roll and not how good the player (not the character) is at that skill.
-Polaris
That's easy. There are two types of characters that are easiest to play. There are those that are exactly like yourself and there are those that are chairactures.
The problem is that if it is your real life social skills that matter in the game, then you have absolutely no incentive to play someone different from yourself. If you do (or are forced) to play someone different from yourself, then you play a chairacture because at least that way you don't have to worry (so much) about the game/real-life skill dichotomy. It also tends to encourage gun-bunnies (another type so-called 'real' roleplayers often claim to hate) because physical skills are always determined by a die roll and not how good the player (not the character) is at that skill.
-Polaris
| QUOTE (DR.PaiN) |
| The role players can have a fun time having a tea party with a Man of the Woods. |
tea party? i don't remember no fricken tea party.
my character was obviously intoxicated or smoking at the time. or just wondering why he really needed the jungle experience...
Gah, misread.
Can this be removed?
Can this be removed?
| QUOTE (Polaris) |
| Person 404, That's easy. There are two types of characters that are easiest to play. There are those that are exactly like yourself and there are those that are chairactures. The problem is that if it is your real life social skills that matter in the game, then you have absolutely no incentive to play someone different from yourself. If you do (or are forced) to play someone different from yourself, then you play a chairacture because at least that way you don't have to worry (so much) about the game/real-life skill dichotomy. It also tends to encourage gun-bunnies (another type so-called 'real' roleplayers often claim to hate) because physical skills are always determined by a die roll and not how good the player (not the character) is at that skill. -Polaris |
Polaris,
I may have missed if you addressed this before, but are you advocating the resolution of social situations purely with dice? Or do you prefer some role-playing in there as well?
Not all groups are blessed with good players. We had an individual in a D&D group who played a priest, and couldn't role-play to save his life. When asked what he did for casting a healing spell, he says "I heal him." I don't know about you, but this is rather boring. I would much prefer a little role-playing in there.
To use a more relevant example, in a recent game we were fighting in a cathedral, and near the end of the battle several monks come through the front door (where I was standing) wielding swords and screaming "Blaphemers!" They were assuming we were part of the group we were finishing off, and I didn't want to hurt them, so I tried intimidation. I could have just said, "I try to intimidate them." But I went with, "I spin around, drop to a knee and aim my pistol at the lead monks groin and say, 'I'll make you chaste.'" If my character had been more imposing, the GM probably would have just let the monk be intimidated, no dice rolls at all. As it was, the character isn't terribly imposing, so I had to roll (with a bonus!). I failed with a miserable roll and got kicked in the face, but that's beside the point
.I guess I'm an advocate of story over stats. There is a balance mind you. I don't think the Charisma 1 troll should be wowing the social circuit all the time. But once in a blue moon, especially if it makes for a cooler story, I'm for it. The balance isn't clear cut, it's subjective depending on the group.
Does your group require a roll for every action? Do you role-play the action and roll? Does the GM let you slide on a few things via some decent role-playing?
IcyCool,
You said:
You said:
| QUOTE |
Does your group require a roll for every action? Do you role-play the action and roll? Does the GM let you slide on a few things via some decent role-playing? |
We roleplay the action to the best of our ability (as players) and then the DM makes the appropriate roll with hidden modifiers.
-Polaris
| QUOTE (Polaris) | ||
| IcyCool, You said:
We roleplay the action to the best of our ability (as players) and then the DM makes the appropriate roll with hidden modifiers. -Polaris |
Good way of doing it, let's the GM fudge rolls if he needs to for story purposes. Thanks for the answer.
| QUOTE (Polaris) |
| We roleplay the action to the best of our ability (as players) and then the DM makes the appropriate roll with hidden modifiers. |
What I tend to do is let the players roleplay the situation and then protray the NPC's reaction bearing in mind the character's Skill rating (only occassionally do I perform a roll for social scenes). This can require a great deal of trust on teh part of the players but it doesn't break the mood of the scene.
Socials skills are not there for you to perform the actions of giving a grand speech, being a huge imposing figure, or saying exactly what's needed to have someone trust and like you.
The skills are there so that after you have already performed those actions, the world reacts in the way that you want.
A 10 foot troll with 12 strength throwing a car into a building then roaring into your face. He has no Intimidation skill, and therefore defaults to his 1 charisma. He rolls a 5 (-4 for defaulting), and the TN to resist is a 2. Were the people scared? Hell yes they were scared. He threw a car into a building!! But that doesn't mean they're going to react in the way he wants! Maybe they decide he needs to die as quickly as possible, and pop a few grenades, instead of running away. After shrugs the grenades off like water and he's done tearing everyone's arms off, that doesn't mean the guy he interrogates is going to spill the beans. The interrogatee could just lie his butt off, or maybe the torture actually kills him on a botched roll. Or maybe he passes out, or has a heart attack.
Anyone can perform the actions. It's the reactions that are determined by the dice. Social skills, if they are included as a skillset in an RPG system, must take the dice into account just as surely as any combat skill. Anyone can fire the gun. Not everyone can hit the target.
All that being said, I love producing an extremely intricate roleplaying scene to go along with any single die roll. I often go out of my way to provide more roleplaying for any scene where a social roll is required, and my hope is that it all fits the character's skills and abilities on the sheet as much as possible.
The skills are there so that after you have already performed those actions, the world reacts in the way that you want.
A 10 foot troll with 12 strength throwing a car into a building then roaring into your face. He has no Intimidation skill, and therefore defaults to his 1 charisma. He rolls a 5 (-4 for defaulting), and the TN to resist is a 2. Were the people scared? Hell yes they were scared. He threw a car into a building!! But that doesn't mean they're going to react in the way he wants! Maybe they decide he needs to die as quickly as possible, and pop a few grenades, instead of running away. After shrugs the grenades off like water and he's done tearing everyone's arms off, that doesn't mean the guy he interrogates is going to spill the beans. The interrogatee could just lie his butt off, or maybe the torture actually kills him on a botched roll. Or maybe he passes out, or has a heart attack.
Anyone can perform the actions. It's the reactions that are determined by the dice. Social skills, if they are included as a skillset in an RPG system, must take the dice into account just as surely as any combat skill. Anyone can fire the gun. Not everyone can hit the target.
All that being said, I love producing an extremely intricate roleplaying scene to go along with any single die roll. I often go out of my way to provide more roleplaying for any scene where a social roll is required, and my hope is that it all fits the character's skills and abilities on the sheet as much as possible.
hmm, nice one that. sure you can do it but unless you have the skill your not going to get the result you wanted. just like trying to repair a car, if you dont know what your upto and your int is in the gutter then good luck...
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