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BitBasher
Good thing that SR really isn't cyberpunk!
Rev
Another way of looking at the problem is that the anti-cyber attitudes that are seem to be almost universal in sr3 don't fit the game.

Maybe all sorts of random (rich) people have stuff like kid stealth legs to play soccer, or just for fashion.
Angelone
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
No, I'm not arguing against all obvious cyberware. Standard cyberlimbs, datajacks, and things of that nature are all perfectly plausible.

I'm arguing against implants that wouldn't exist because no one other than a niche shadowrunner with a suicide wish would buy it, thus there not being a market for it. Especially not a market that has such items being mass-produced and widely available for purchase. Hell, it's harder to find a Winnebago for sale than it is to find a pair of Kid Stealth legs or Balance Tail, and there's a place selling tons of RVs just down the road from me.

As a side note, I've never considered Shadowrun to be cyberpunk. It has some cyberpunk aspects, just like it has some fantasy aspects, some Cthulu-esque horror aspects, and some space opera aspects amongst many others... but it is its own genre in the end.

Basically, I'm arguing against bad writing. The game too often seems to forget that the world isn't inhabited solely by shadowrunners.

Not everyone who gets cyberware is a runner. Gangers(for intimidation), clubgoers(for coolness factor), and even wannabe shadowrunner fanboys do. Outlandish cosmetic cyberware exists, if pressed a runner could say he goes to "dinoclubs" all the time.

Doc Raven and crew aren't shadowrunners. Like Gingerbreadman they left the shadows long ago. Somewhere I read mothers use Kid Stealth like the bogeyman and Wolf and Raven like santa, "If you're bad Kid Stealth will take you away, but if you're good maybe Wolf and Raven may come by." Thats paraphrased, but they certainly ain't shadowrunners.

So, while I agree very few serious runners would get something like that. There are more people in the world that get cyber than runners, right?
Bigity
Not all Shadowrunners are interested in being faces, stealth work, etc.

Some of are just half-insane people who like to kill others.
nezumi
QUOTE (Rev)
Another way of looking at the problem is that the anti-cyber attitudes that are seem to be almost universal in sr3 don't fit the game.

What anti-cyber attitudes? From what I've seen, people don't have cyber for three reasons:

1) They don't have the cash (or don't care enough) and will never get anywhere because of that
2) They're magical
3) They're bigwigs, or littlewigs on their way up, who want to look respectable, so all their cyber is subtle.
Ol' Scratch
Yep. And if it's one thing the megacorporations do, is cater to the shadowrunner/ganger crowd. But only if it's stupid. If it would actually be useful or in demand, like say Tactical Computers or Tailored-fraggin'-Pheromones (which are going to be way more desireable for the rich clubkids who might be a viable demographic)? No way man... no way.

Let's have a look at some other things that are mysteriously more difficult to get. Thermosense Organs? You betcha! Reflex Recorder: Athletics? Yep! Quickness Enhancement +1 for your normal cyberlimb? You know it; apparently no one's really looking for something simple or desireable like that. Vision Magnification 3 (Electronic)? Yep, that's harder to get too. Eye Light System? Yep, that's tougher as well. Balance Augmentation? You know it.

And best of all? A Recorder!

But I'm just weird, I guess. It makes a lot more sense that Kid Stealth Legs and Obvious Cyberskulls are more readily available than any of those useless and worthless gizmos above.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (nezumi)
What anti-cyber attitudes?

SR3 p. 93, "Cyberware and Social Interaction."

But that assumes you actually use those worthless social skills and stuff. It gets in the way of killing and looking cool -- "style over substance" and all that -- so you may have missed it.
Grinder
What are social skills?


biggrin.gif
nezumi
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
QUOTE (nezumi @ Jun 14 2005, 11:46 AM)
What anti-cyber attitudes?

SR3 p. 93, "Cyberware and Social Interaction."

But that assumes you actually use those worthless social skills and stuff. It gets in the way of killing and looking cool -- "style over substance" and all that -- so you may have missed it.

Don't be an ass. My games have more social interaction than gunfights. Last run there were 6 shots fired, and all of them were between party members (at each other).

If memory serves, the rules on cyber and social interactions are vague, generally stupid, and applicaple mostly to said bigwigs.

I do however agree with you that the availability numbers are way out of whack. Tactical computer I can see for in game reasons, but pheromones and the like should be available on every street corner.
Grinder
QUOTE (nezumi)
I do however agree with you that the availability numbers are way out of whack. Tactical computer I can see for in game reasons, but pheromones and the like should be available on every street corner.

When it annoys you or you can't live with the obvious stupid rules change them. That's what i would do in my games. No wait: that's what i do in my games.
hermit
Well, shadowrun kinda encourages you to, with how some rules suck.
Cain
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Yep. And if it's one thing the megacorporations do, is cater to the shadowrunner/ganger crowd. But only if it's stupid. If it would actually be useful or in demand, like say Tactical Computers or Tailored-fraggin'-Pheromones (which are going to be way more desireable for the rich clubkids who might be a viable demographic)? No way man... no way.

Let's have a look at some other things that are mysteriously more difficult to get. Thermosense Organs? You betcha! Reflex Recorder: Athletics? Yep! Quickness Enhancement +1 for your normal cyberlimb? You know it; apparently no one's really looking for something simple or desireable like that. Vision Magnification 3 (Electronic)? Yep, that's harder to get too. Eye Light System? Yep, that's tougher as well. Balance Augmentation? You know it.

And best of all? A Recorder!

But I'm just weird, I guess. It makes a lot more sense that Kid Stealth Legs and Obvious Cyberskulls are more readily available than any of those useless and worthless gizmos above.

So in other words, you don't have an argument; you're just whining in general 'cause you don't understand Availiability. Gotcha. cool.gif
Ol' Scratch
Still waiting for that quote in M&M.
Cynic project
Show me the quote that says that M&M is for the general public.
viggo
oh snap
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Jun 14 2005, 06:19 PM)
Show me the quote that says that M&M is for the general public.

Too many to name, and largely implied, from page 6 and pages 12 to 13 for cyberware alone. On 12-13 (the "Power Players" section), you'll note that not a single one there states that they manufacture custom implants for the shadow community, but make several references to the general public. Of course I could just throw the comment back at you: Show me the quote that says M&M isn't for the general public (there isn't even a Captain Chaos-style Shadowland download intro).
Aku
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Jun 14 2005, 06:19 PM)
Show me the quote that says that M&M is for the general public.

Too many to name, and largely implied, from page 6 and pages 12 to 13 for cyberware alone. On 12-13 (the "Power Players" section), you'll note that not a single one there states that they manufacture custom implants for the shadow community, but make several references to the general public.

i think he ment the actual printed words of M&M, not the concepts or game devices... as in, it's copywritten material...
Ol' Scratch
Wha?
toturi
I think he meant to ask for a quote going to something to the effect of "Man and Machine is for general public consumption".
Cynic project
m&M and all source books are made by and for criminals. The thing about the general public needing know about kid stealth is mute. Hell, does the general public know what the UB really was?
toturi
QUOTE (Cynic project)
m&M and all source books are made by and for criminals. The thing about the general public needing know about kid stealth is mute. Hell, does the general public know what the UB really was?

Untrue. M&M is a Shadowrun Rules Expansion, unlike SOTA 2063 and 2064 which are Shadowrun Sourcebooks.
Cain
QUOTE
Too many to name, and largely implied, from page 6 and pages 12 to 13 for cyberware alone. On 12-13 (the "Power Players" section), you'll note that not a single one there states that they manufacture custom implants for the shadow community, but make several references to the general public.

Now, show us where it says "Kid Stealth" legs are completely unsellable to the general public, and you might have a point. However, since cyberskulls and cybertorsos are perfectly legal, just like "Kid Stealth" legs; it's clear that they're not runner-exclusive, they're just weird.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Cain)
Now, show us where it says "Kid Stealth" legs are completely unsellable to the general public

Why? That's my point.

In any case, and I'm still waiting for that quote of yours.
Grinder
QUOTE (hermit)
Well, shadowrun kinda encourages you to, with how some rules suck.

But without houserules theres no need to complain about the obvious stupid rules here at DS. wink.gif

Honestly, when i think that Kid Stealth Legs should have an availablity of 123 and i can come along with some reasons for that then it's this way in my games. So easy, so simple.
nick012000
I would like to point out that 'Kid Stealth' legs aren't actually called Kid Stealth legs by the corps that make them. They're "Yamatetsu Oni-4 digitgrade cyberlegs" or something like that. They're just called "Kid Stealth" legs because people know who he is, what sort of legs he has, and it's short cyber.gif .
Critias
QUOTE (nezumi)
Last run there were 6 shots fired, and all of them were between party members (at each other).

I...uhm...maybe you shouldn't be bragging about that. wink.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Cynic project)
Kid stealth was made to be known.

...
nezumi
QUOTE (Critias)
QUOTE (nezumi @ Jun 14 2005, 04:01 PM)
Last run there were 6 shots fired, and all of them were between party members (at each other).

I...uhm...maybe you shouldn't be bragging about that. wink.gif

Oh yeah, without the back story it sounds kinda bad. Suffice to say, it was a scary, haunted house and people were very jumpy. No actual inter-party conflict (at least not until the neurostun wore off).
Cynic project
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
QUOTE (Cain @ Jun 14 2005, 11:14 PM)
Now, show us where it says "Kid Stealth" legs are completely unsellable to the general public

Why? That's my point.

In any case, and I'm still waiting for that quote of yours.

And I am waiting for the quote from you. Show to me where it states the info in M&M is known by the public at large?
Ol' Scratch
Considering you didn't get your last point right whatsoever (rulesbooks aren't sourcebooks; only the sourcebooks are Shadowland downloads), it's up to you and Cain to prove that the M&M information isn't public knowledge.

I, at least, have been able to cite page referenes that imply that the material isn't runner-specific. You've yet to show a single point otherwise.
toturi
QUOTE (Cynic project)
And I am waiting for the quote from you. Show to me where it states the info in M&M is known by the public at large?

Well, then. Show me a quote that info in the BBB or any other Rulebook or Rule Expansion is known by the public at large.
Cain
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
QUOTE (Cain @ Jun 14 2005, 11:14 PM)
Now, show us where it says "Kid Stealth" legs are completely unsellable to the general public

Why? That's my point.

In any case, and I'm still waiting for that quote of yours.

I've already given you my quote. It's the one in quotation marks, remember? embarrassed.gif

Now, show us you have a point, and demonstrate that "Kid Stealth" legs are completely undesired by the same public that buys obvious cyberskulls and cybertorsos. Come on, we know you have a real argument in there somewhere! Here boy!
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Cain @ Jun 15 2005, 11:36 AM)
I've already given you my quote.  It's the one in quotation marks, remember?

Oh, good, so you really don't have anything back your comments up with and are just trying to troll me due to some petty little issues you have. Gotcha. (Oh, also, should you decided to continue on with that idiotic logic, you might want to pick up Rigger 3 and look at pages such as, oh I don't know, 170, 178, 190, 192, and 193 as other examples of quotation marks being used in exactly the same way.)
Cynic project
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Considering you didn't get your last point right whatsoever (rulesbooks aren't sourcebooks; only the sourcebooks are Shadowland downloads), it's up to you and Cain to prove that the M&M information isn't public knowledge.

I, at least, have been able to cite page referenes that imply that the material isn't runner-specific. You've yet to show a single point otherwise.

Yes, because the public at large knows about that bone lacing adds to your damage restiance tests...

Mister silly head the rules book and source books are the same with the only expetion that rules book are right. That still doesn't mean the public at large knows what is right. If a rule book gave you stats on secrect order of magical vampires. Would the public at large know about them? The m&M talks about cybermancy, does John Q. Public knows who can use that sort of magic? Do they know what a delta clinic is? Where they are, and who has them? Do they know what a an oral slasher is? Or how much a MBV 4 costs? Or how about FAB3? Or Maybe the amount of cyberware you can fit into a cybernetic hand?
Cochise
QUOTE (Cynic project)
Yes, because the public at large knows about that bone lacing adds to your damage restiance tests...

If the ingame description contains such info possibly "yes" ...

The problem with your assumption on M&M and all its contained implants being from criminals for criminals is the fact that there are numerous implants that are labeled "legal" und have certainly usability outside the professional field of "running". By your assertion that those implants are only known to runners and criminals I could equally claim that no civilian has ever heard of Ares Roadmaster, Nissan Jackrabbit etc. since all these vehicles are listed in a "Runner-only" sourcebook / rule expansion.

QUOTE
Mister silly head the rules book and source books are the same with the only expetion that rules book are right. That still doesn't mean the public at large knows what is right.


By that token no civilian has ever heard of Smartgun-Implants, obvious cyberlegs, etc.?

QUOTE
If a rule book gave you stats on secrect order of magical vampires. Would the public at large know about them?


*hmm* Let's have a look at Threats I and notice that the ingame information on Vampires is a Shadowland File whereas the implants in M&M and the ingame info on them is not presented in that manner ...

QUOTE
The m&M talks about cybermancy, does John Q. Public knows who can use that sort of magic? Do they know what a delta clinic is? Where they are, and who has them? Do they know what a an oral slasher is? Or how much a MBV 4 costs? Or how about FAB3? Or Maybe the amount of cyberware you can fit into a cybernetic hand?


All these questions have to be answered with "depends on John Q. Public". Again, M&M isn't presented as Shadowland File. It's a compilation of offgame info concerning game mechanics and general background info, which may or may not be accessible knowledge for anyone. The big problem still being, that the legally and easily obtainable "Kid Stealth"-Legs obviously are mass produced items while Kid Stealth had them made as a custom job.


Cain
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Jun 15 2005, 12:32 PM)
QUOTE (Cain @ Jun 15 2005, 11:36 AM)
I've already given you my quote.  It's the one in quotation marks, remember?

Oh, good, so you really don't have anything back your comments up with and are just trying to troll me due to some petty little issues you have. Gotcha. (Oh, also, should you decided to continue on with that idiotic logic, you might want to pick up Rigger 3 and look at pages such as, oh I don't know, 170, 178, 190, 192, and 193 as other examples of quotation marks being used in exactly the same way.)

Obviously, somebody needs an English lesson. You should probably start here. But, in the meanwhile, let's humor you.

R3, non-revised, p 170. There's only two instances of quotations, and only one used for a name: "paddywagon". Paddywagon is street slang.

p 178. Lockheed "Arrow". Doesn't say one way or the other, but it implies that it's only a street name.

p 190. "Harpy Scout". And then, it's referred to as the Harpy twice in the next paragraph. So, apparently the actual name is "Harpy", and "Harpy Scout" is a misname, according to the first paragraph.

p 192. "Grande Concorde". Again, it's only referred to as the SV250. Kinda like the 7E7 is referred to as the Dreamliner; it's just a common nickname, and not part of the actual brand name.

p 193. "Molniya". Again, the actual name is the Ilyushin IL-159 Suborbital.

So, you don't have an actual point, do you? And don't think we haven't noticed that you *still* haven't actually put up any evidence supporting your position. Come on, son, you can do better than that! All you have to do is provide actual proof! grinbig.gif
Cochise
*hmm* Cain, just one question there:

If those instances in R3 are "common nicknames", doesn't that imply that the same will be true for "Kid Stealth"-Legs?

That in turn would mean that Kid Stealth or at least his streetname is a publically known figure to a larger group of people. Within runner circles that might be true amd even o.k., but there's no indication that that knowledge is restricted to that circle. And that's where my beef (which happens to be very identical to Doc F's) comes up:

A person with a certain fame within the criminal circles ordered custom made legs and had them implanted. So far so good.
Said person sort of "retired" but still remains out of public awareness, since doing otherwise would be very hindering for his casual job engagements with Doc Raven & Co.

Now those custom made legs suddenly turn up as mass produced and legally obtainable obvious cyberlegs and get a nick name that directly refers to the person that had them originally designed for him.

Sorry, but to me that's not very plausible ...
Slipshade
I honestly believe that the "Kid Stealth" part to the name was put in the book so that fans of the stories would know what they are without some other name like Super Crazy Cyber Chicken Legs getting in the way.

That is just the way I play it and I will refrain from the whole, is it or is it not "cool" discussion.

I would guess Kid Stealth would have the Distictive Style Flaw though. smile.gif

Slip
Cain
Slipshade pretty much got it. If you don't live in a Boeing town, you probably won't be calling a plane a "Dreamliner".

What's more, "Kid Stealth" legs are probably an example of the technology curve catching up. The original stories are set in 2050, and Kid Stealth had his famous legs developed and installed some years before; so the legs would be at least the equivalent of alphaware, if not beta or better.

Now, 2060 rolls around. Alphaware is commercially availiable. By now, other people could have reverse-engineered the legs; or more likely, convergently developed the concept. Other people get the legs installed-- some of whom are civilians who just like looking weird, others who are runners with a penchant for the odd. In Seattle, those who knew Dr. Raven's crew will say: "Hey, those are just like Kid Stealth's legs!" and the name will stick. Otherwise, you might refer to it by the actual brand name.

BTW: Doc Raven wasn't exactly a reclusive figure. He had significant Tir connections, and married a Tir noble. Him and his crew were publically known in 2050 as do-gooders for hire (as evidenced by the story Digital Grace-- street kids knew about Raven and co.) Raven's crew was even hired by the Seattle Mariners, apparently through open and normal channels. So, Kid Stealth isn't necessarily "out of the public awareness", since Dr. Raven was clearly in the public's eye.
Slipshade
Cain - I would think that more people would say, "What the hell did that dude do to his legs, what a freak," than would say "Hey those look like Kid Stealth's legs." But in my opinion you are correct that a small group would likely say it that way. Maybe even enough that it could be a fairly common term in the Seattle shadows, since it has been over 10 years.

I have to agree with Cochise and Dr. F in that it is insane that it is easier to get than other more sensible cyber and bioware though.

What I find interesting is that if M&M had labeled them Super Crazy Cyber Chicken Legs, I bet most people on this site would have come up with the moniker "Kid Stealth" Legs on their own anyway. smile.gif

Slip
toturi
QUOTE (Cynic project)
Mister silly head the rules book and source books are the same with the only expetion that rules book are right. That still doesn't mean the public at large knows what is right. If a rule book gave you stats on secrect order of magical vampires. Would the public at large know about them? The m&M talks about cybermancy, does John Q. Public knows who can use that sort of magic? Do they know what a delta clinic is? Where they are, and who has them? Do they know what a an oral slasher is? Or how much a MBV 4 costs? Or how about FAB3? Or Maybe the amount of cyberware you can fit into a cybernetic hand?

SR3 tells us of the Awakening. Does Mr Public know about it? SR3 speaks of the fragmentation of the former United States. Does Mr Public know that he's in Indian country now? Why should he? Afterall, that still doesn't mean that the public at large knows what is right, right?
John Campbell
That some things in the book are public knowledge does not imply that everything in the book is public knowledge merely because it's in the same book.

SR3 and M&M, like many (perhaps all) other SR books, contain things that any character who hasn't had their head in the sand for the last sixty years knows, things that are known only to highly select groups of characters, and things that no character in game knows (mostly game mechanics, that last). And everything in between. There is nothing that intrinsically prevents a book from containing information from more than one of those categories... and many (perhaps all) of them clearly do so. The argument that any given passage in a book must fall into a particular one of these categories merely because there are other passages in the book that do is therefore not valid. In either direction.
Grinder
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Jun 16 2005, 03:51 AM)
Mister silly head the rules book and source books are the same with the only expetion that rules book are right. That still doesn't mean the public at large knows what is right. If a rule book gave you stats on secrect order of magical vampires. Would the public at large know about them? The m&M talks about cybermancy, does John Q. Public knows who can use that sort of magic? Do they know what a delta clinic is? Where they are, and who has them? Do they know what a an oral slasher is? Or how much a MBV 4 costs? Or how about FAB3? Or Maybe the amount of cyberware you can fit into a cybernetic hand?

SR3 tells us of the Awakening. Does Mr Public know about it? SR3 speaks of the fragmentation of the former United States. Does Mr Public know that he's in Indian country now? Why should he? Afterall, that still doesn't mean that the public at large knows what is right, right?

You're talking about two differents sets of knowledge here, that's not fitting. The events you, toturi, mention are common knowledge, i'm sure. But the things cynic project mnetioned are only rumours for most of the people, if they ever heard of them. It doesn't really affect their daily life as much as the Awakenning.
toturi
QUOTE (Grinder)
You're talking about two differents sets of knowledge here, that's not fitting. The events you, toturi, mention are common knowledge, i'm sure. But the things cynic project mnetioned are only rumours for most of the people, if they ever heard of them. It doesn't really affect their daily life as much as the Awakenning.

How do you tell? How do you seperate commonly know game mechanics from not commonly known game mechanics? How do you seperate the game facts that implanting a MBW 4 costs 2 million nuyen.gif and that being Awakened costs 30 BP? Afterall, the Awakening is a commonly known event as you have stated and from cynic's POV, it seems that knowing the cost of a MBW 4 appears to be limited knowledge. How do you decide which piece of information is rare and which is common when both are game mechanics?
Grinder
Common Sense?

toturi
Your common sense or mine?
SirBedevere
QUOTE (toturi)
Your common sense or mine?

In your game - yours. You're the GM.
Grinder
QUOTE (toturi)
Your common sense or mine?

I don't want do dive into details like "Knowing that Kid Stealth Legs are hard to get" or "The Awakening affects everyday life, so it's common knowledge".

Your common sense in your games, mine in my games. And i never had problems with other people opinions as most of the people i play with are able to discuss such matters and come to an conclusion (which doesn't mean that this in impossible with you smile.gif ).
Skip
A couple of random points:

1) Michael Stackpole wrote the stories knowing about Shadowrun, but before the rules came out. He was a game designer and wrote FASA BattleTech novels. Kid Stealth may have worked more smoothly in the cyberpunk universe he was thinking of, and it was 15 years ago. So forgive him for not knowing what SR3 is like in 2005.

2) While runners may live in many socio-economic strata, they frequently deal with a certain group of people that live a different life than most. Look at similar groups today - body piercing, disfiguring brands and scars, tattoos and very identifiable looks are much more prevalent than in corporate America. This is one reason for outrageous cyber.

3) The reason certain desirable modifications are harder to get is not demand - it is the need to avoid government interference. Most obvious cyber does not benefit the owner directly, it is largely cosmetic. Think of cosmetic surgery - easy to get right? Now say you wanted to get stronger and were willing to train under supervision of a doctor who would inject you with human growth hormone at safe levels and guide your development. Say both cost the same in terms of time and equipment. I think you would have to pay a lot more for the latter because it is illegal. The government in the game doesn't want people improving themselves through technology without them knowing about it. This makes sense to me, so I've never really questioned it.

4) Here is a thought - you decide how much the public knows about what goes on in your own game and relax a little. nyahnyah.gif Personally I've always played that most of the stuff was available but that the public largely ignored stuff like M&M. It is not geared toward their consumption and they wouldn't be interested. Do they know a lot of the stuff is out there? Yes. Do they know where to get basic implants? Yes. Do they do much else? Maybe watch some riggers on TLC (insert American Chopper joke here), but that's about it. It's not something they need or want in their lives so they know about it but do not search it out.

Well, I've made my annual post and I'll go back to lurking.

Regards,

Chris
Nikoli
Actually, the insight that he wrote Battletech novels explains it completely. Those are locust legs on a metahuman scale. Was Kid Stealth some sort of nut job that acted like he was the biggest thing in the shadows?
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