You're kidding. Where do you think 'Aryan Nation' and 'Blood and Honour' have their headquarters?

Also, Shadowrun doesn't nly cover North America, neither in setting nor in target audience. Live with it, and stop the bitching.

Shadowrun's authors have done, so far, a remarkably good job in walking the line and trying to offer interesting information for both audiences. Curiously, the German FanPro boards don't have people demanding Shadowrun being more Europeanized. there's no demanding the standard setting should be changed to Hamburg (or Germany as a whole for that matter). there's no saying the world of SR should end at Gibraltar and the Ural.

I don't get why some American players seem to think it's their right to demand that Shadowrun's game world ends, in perspective, culture, and geography, on the East and West coasts. I mean, okay, you don't like to play abroad. Well, here's a novel idea: don't buy SoLA, SoA and SoE then. Ignore all references to other locales than Seattle, Denver and Austin, Texas. But stop bitching about the simple fact they *exist*. Because, you know, some people like it that way, and I daresay they're the majority of SR's fan base.

And they are fringe of fringe, like he said.

But let me point it that it is not bitching to note that the context of the book is a IC sourcebook compiled by and for the Seattle Shadowland BBS. Or have you completely forgotten that? Because it seems to me that some people, namely authors, have. Hence my note that the books aren't written for IC context any longer because it's disregarding fundamentally the target audience for all of the IC text. Just curious, but why are so many non-Seattle runners commenting in these books? For fun?

Let me give you an example of how the PA chapter specifically missed the point by a mile (that would be 1.6 km for the rest of you) with, at the least, me. For years, there have been rumblings of a Seattle secession movement. The most information on any policlub related to it was in Underworld. Amusingly, it's not really touch upon in New Seattle. And it's not like there's been a lack of things which would affect that movement and which is something I would consider a political agitation because it affects a lot of people and relations across North America. Moreover, I suggest you go back and read NAGNA. Consider that all forms of discrimination are legal except for racism (that is, against races) and religious bigotry. One of the most amusing trains of logic I've seen in SR is that spells like Mind Probe are illegal in the UCAS--sure, for the FBI to use (actually, that's not even that true)--because without Section 5 of the 14th Amendment, the Bill of Rights doesn't apply to state governments, and in turn, to groups like Lone Star when enforcing municipal contracts. Doesn't really show up much in the Feminism chapter, though. And this is just the UCAS. The media, individual issues and personalities, and litigation are the tools of political agitation here, and mostly about issues which actually matter. Movements like Anarchism or Antifas have no relevance here. How about the Loose Alliances of groups trying to get an Equal Protection Amendment in the UCAS Constitution? Hell, how about some Due Process at least?

Moreover, if you were really going to swing for the fences then you'd have mentioned religion, which has played a huge role in politics.

I always took them as being a Shadowland network files compilation that was hosted and compiled by the crowd in in Seattle, but intended for the Shadowland crowd as a whole. Note there're shadowland and shadowland-affiliated nodes in so non-American places as Hong Kong, the Hague, Frankfurt, Paris, and Kronstadt.
Also, a lot of the "foreign" people posting in SL sourcebooks are Seattle-based runners who were on runs elsewhere and share the experience. Shadowrun's modules and novels all have long made a point that shadowrunning activity isn't restricted to North America. In fact, this has been the case ever since the very beginning.

Now, if you ask why five out of ten Great Dragons feel compelled to post in SL Seattle ... that would be a good point indeed.

And yes, the source books ahve gotten a bit off the BBS-post feel of old. Personally, I don't really mind that they're more of a traveling guide now than a forum thread.

It's all down to personal taste, really, I guess.

As for the groups:

Eco-groups played a prominent part in CFS, and were mentioned in a number of books and novels. The "Der Nachtmachen" (SIC!!!) policlub was a very prominent actor in early SR books, and they were (neo)Anarchist.

No, he said they don't exist. they do. And they're fringe of fringe, yes. Doesn't make them evaporate (sadly), though.

No, he didn't. There's nothing in his post that says they don't exist.

No, it was the case.

Now the foreigners are just foreign. The shadowcomments are posted the Shadowland Seattle, or at least that's how it had been. But there are parts of this and other books of late that might as well have nothing to do with Seattle. Moreover, the shadowcomments often feel gratuitous not for their presence, but for how easily they could just be absorbed into the narrative body of text.

Oh, that's easy. When Mike M said SR was going to be more "street" and less "cartoonish," he was full of shit.

My overarching comments about "feel" should be amended from "European" to "European SR freelancer." This book could probably be all OOC without much editing. I didn't like Findley as much as some people, and I thought some of his concepts for SR's setting were kind of wacky. However, at least it "felt" like reading living characters interact instead of this.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but "we don't really have" and "we have them, but they're not relevant" are two different things to say. One says "Ah yeah, those, well, we all consider them loonies." and the other says "Nazis? What? We don't have those."

Okay, I can see your point that shadowrtalk comes across as too much of a writers' tool to introduce different POV than that of the main article. I feel the same, actually. I want the old shadowtalk - whioch was really more like forum postings - too. But that has nothing to do with how Shadowrun is too "europeanised", as you have been complaining.

Is it that the books now contain comments of other runners, who aren't based out of Seattle? That would only be the authors' way of acknowledging that a good part of Shadowrun's consumers actually aren't either, and try and offer a bit of relevance to them, too. You see, Shadowrun actually wants to sell outside the US too (and does; in Germany, for instance, you'd be hard pressed to find a gamer who hasn't at least played it once). Ydeah, you may not like that. But, like I said above, you'Re not the be-all end-all of Shadowrun's audience. The game has to offer something for everyone, and so far, I think it is succeeding in that.

Not to say I haven't got things I would like to see donme better (i.e. Shadowtalk, a bit cutting down on Dragon and IE posts, those are getting too cheesy). But That specific point, I consider quite well done.

No, they have the same approximate meaning.

The Hell you say!

I know. I don't particularly care insofar as I don't get my panties in a bind because they're selling overseas. I must also say your apparent belief that I have some sort of American elitism is remarkably insulting. I don't care. What I care about is that the current format is dragging down the quality of the product.

What I also find to be rather annoying is that you're missing the overarching point of my comments for shit that's relatively unimportant. Maybe you ougth to try responding to the large paragraphs of text once in a while.

While I'm at it, I might also want to mention that, technically, slavery is not illegal, per se, in the UCAS and is actually pretty much accepted with regards to corporate ownership of people under the Contract Court Amendment, which formalized a repatriation system that with regards to black slaves was comparatively chaotic and unwieldy. Combined with one of the few things Kenson & Co. stole correctly from NAGNA about the UCAS' ability to declare whole regions civil rights-free zones by fiat, and that racial or religious discrimination is perfectly Constitutional so longer as you discriminate against the SINless. There's little interpretation that the FedGov found the power to impose its will on the states since two amendments, "Expanded powers to state and local (i.e., Metroplex) governments. The central power of the UCAS government is greatly reduced" (NAGNA, 81).

Life in the UCAS, in the land of the free that was so lauded by Dunk in his Will, should by all rights be Hell for a lot of people.

Taklk to a democrate from the deep south or one from the west cost. They are only the same in party names.

"We?"

"We?"

Speak for yourself. The difference is that too many groups listed in LA have some sort of legitimite existence in Europe, but here they never really have (for various reasons which don't need to be explained here) aside from the one group no one seems to like: Racists. Even the environmentalists only had a short heyday of influence. By the 1980s their importance was considerably curbed.

When I think of political agitators, I'm amused by the lack of organizations like labor unions because they always seemed to be taken for granted when I was in Europe, but they're a dying breed of group in this country (and engaged in a possible secession conflict over some of the larger unions, including the Teamsters, from the AFL-CIO). I mean, okay, SR introduced the concept of the policlub way back in SR1. SIGs didn't work like that, or didn't mobilize effectively at the time but there are organizations which have become in appearance similar to their SR equivalents. OTOH, as I'm sure most of you know, I used to live in Washington, D.C. The interesting thing about Washington is how thoroughly pervasive the mass media is engaged in that city, and how many single-issue political commercials run on television in the city every day.

The fundamental difference in the American electoral system and the parliamentary system in its various forms across Europe create an entirely different political culture. If one is going to discuss political agitators in T6W, particular emphasis on this side of the Atlantic should be rooted in people who can convey messages most effectively, even if it is illegal. Groups that had existed is earlier editions like trid pirates and politically-minded deckers would be the evolution of political creatures like bloggers and small-scale activists.

The tone is just so different that I consider what has been discussed in the past in SR with what's in this book and the general tone and style that has been pervading SR since Mike, and even moreso since Fanpro took over, and there's a disconnect between the old-school stuff and what's written now. Too much historical revisionism. Too many references to RL that never had a place in SR's past. Too many people writing consensus pieces. And too many times things are written without a proper frame of reference (the cops chapter of SOTA64 now ranks near the top of my list of things I wish could be unwritten). The tone and feel of this book is just different and going in the wrong direction.

Well, with saying over and over again that LA is another step in Shadowrun's (despicable) europeanisation, and you complaining about euro-bias in the game, it's pretty easy to get that impression. I guess this is not the case, though. Mo offense meant then, I guess I must have been mistaken.

and I am with DE on saying that SL Seattle should stop being the hub of the runner scene. A more global approach would be much better fitted for the setting as it has evolved. Maybe one should change Shadowland Seattle to The [worldwide] Shadowland Network?

And of corse forget about the NAN, however the CFS is ran (And those fighting Saito. Wait evryone loves him!), Quebec, Aztlan and the tir...

Yeah, I noticed that. Edited.

Yeah, I got that the first time DE. That whole situation is another concern that goes way beyond just this one book. And before anyone asks, it's partly through some things you said about freelancing on SR that have turned me off ever wanting to writing for Fanpro.

I'm shocked. That's the one thing that I can always rely on--our visions of SR will never look alike. Personally, I think it would be like me trying to write SoE. My comments above about the political and civil rights landscape of the UCAS serve as an example to point out things that I don't imagine anyone ever really thought about over at Fanpro HQ. I mean, maybe the designers did when they wrote NAGNA, but how many freelancers do you think ever thought that as it stands there are no guarantees for states to afford people with Due Process? It's always focused on how the SINless don't have any rights, but the SINless aren't the only ones.

Perhaps it is outdated. However, that being said it does remain the format and context which is still being used, however superficially anymore.

It is.

What's your point?

Sure, the politics get more crooked in the NAN, but the process is more likely to remain closer to us that some made up bullshit European political groupings.

It's certainly not for everyone! Sometimes, I'm not sure if it's for me. But other times I enjoy it. And it does make sure I get some of the random SR ideas bouncing around in my head down on paper.

*grins* I don't expect anyone to have the same vision of SR as I do. Hell, I even differ with FanPro on a bunch of it. I pick the parts I like and I work on 'em.

It's possible it's never been thought of. And it's possible it's been thought of, but there's never really been a good reason to focus on it in print. There is so much material for SR that I scribble down from my head all the time (sometimes you see the random off-the-wall threads from me here for brainstorming) and most of that stuff will never see print, because it's not really what they are focusing the books on at the time.

Yah. Not denying that. I just think they should have moved away from it a long time ago. That everything happened in Seattle was really rather silly when the game developed into focusing on "big events". One city just can't hold all that stuff without looking ridiculous. Now, if the game had stayed with much smaller events, Seattle would work fine, but apparently sales tend to suck with those sorts of products.

It just baffles me how this could seriously upset someone. I just don't see it. Even if the material has a non-American slant to it, I don't see where it becomes useless. And if this kind of thing does seriously upset someone, I have no idea how or why they continue to play and post about a game so seemingly conflicts with their personal interests. I guess I could see if it just took a new direction you don't like, but it doesn't sound like this is recent. If the game has evolved, over time, to go a seperate direction than what you like, at some point you need to just get over that and move on to another game or something.

It's been stewing for a long time, and started coming to a head over SR4 and then when I realized that I pretty much stand alone even compared to Critias and mfb. But I didn't really notice what seemed to be going wrong until last week. It was literally an "aha!" moment for me. It explained my rants about SoE last year, about what annoyed me about even SOTA64 after re-reading it for the nth time, and and things have looked differently since. The game passed me by.

Indeed.

Whether or not I disagree with your evaluation of such matters of the contemporary aspects (although you'd probably be surprised if you look in depth at the numbers and influence of such groups as Blood&Honor, Aryan Nation, Stormfront) that is actually besides the point.

In Shadowrun, extrapolated political trends (including minority ones) have become more extreme and polarized as society, class, race, ethnicity have themselves become more divided and radicalized by the dystopian status quo. This is not new and dates back to NAGNA's visionary introduction of the Sixth World's version of the Neo-Cons as a political movement in its own right - the ArchConservatives.

Regardless of the radicalization of current political entities, consider the shot-in-the-arm that the collapse of the US, the founding of the NAN and the expulsion of "palefaces" would give the neo-nazi/fascist/white supremacist/survivalist fringe (one of the reasons we included "White Resistance") not to mention stuff like the Awakening, ethnic resurgence and metahumanity.

Likewise consider the potential popularity of Neo-communist ideals (and even traditional communist ideals) among not the well-off wageslaves but the underprivileged blue collar middle class and whatever beleaguered trade unions are left, given the circumstances of the UCAS and the increasing class divide. Note that Communism was a force in America (albeit a minor one) through-out the Depression for very similar socio-economic reasons and while Communism has been largely discredited as a viable econo-political model, there 's no reason a modernized version shouldn't take hold in the appropriate circumstances.

This isn't even mentioning the potential that some NANs and tribes therein might actually have socialist/communist/corporativist leanings if they were to revert to traditional tribal proprietary laws (the RL Navajo nation already has several such laws in effect).

Regardless of whether or not a political ideology is relevant today doesn't mean wouldn't be relevant (and an interesting roleplaying device) in a setting 60 years in the future given the extreme circumstances.

How's that?

Travel (particularly travel with contraband) is expensive. How is the street level runner to afford this? What Johnson is going to foot the bill to have street level runners ferried around the world? What possible advantage could this have over hiring local (or local-ish) runners?

I've had street level characters who have done this (by GM fiat) and even when the runs were successful it has never really worked. Operating outside of your home territory is difficult as you don't know the terrain, the customs, the languages or the movers and shakers. Chips and CHA can help with most of these things, but nothing can make up for the fact that your contacts are no longer useful. Street level knowledge skills aren't going to help much either, unless you consider it reasonable for a gutter punk with "Safehouses" to know about safehouses in random far away places he has never visited before (because he has never even seen the amount of nuyen it would take to get his SINless ass there).

So you fix this by giving the characters some connection with the location, right? So they have some knowledge of the area and maybe even some contacts there. In that case, why did the Johnson hire them instead of local runners? Because they...had no connections to the area...so they couldn't possibly...be involved in whatever skirmish is taking place...there... Uh, yeah.

Fix one problem, create another.

The large number of globe-trotting relatively low-level adventures since the first edition would appear to validate my views. Most have plausible grounding and in fact more than half the adventures since Harlequin have been set outside Seattle.

Actually no. Travelling abroad fully loaded is expensive (and then only if you don't have transportation figured into the deal) - if all else fails try Technicolor Wings. As for the reasons for hiring abroad rather than hiring locals, the Shadows of books have provided quite a few suggestions varying from place to place and ranging from the obvious "don't know what's really at stake" to the Johnson who doesn't have local connections he can trust and wants something done (all the aforementioned adventures include relatively plausible reasons too).

Furthermore using a regional network of contacts through a fixer (for a fee) helps immensely and for anything but legwork heavy investigation runs a trustworthy local fixer will get you in touch with people in the know (for a fee).

All this whittles down your average take on a run but you make up for it by taking runs in Vancouver, Portland and LA when the Seattle scene is slow.

Personally I've had the exact opposite experience from you but as always mileage will vary.

The bulkeniztion of NA is both a boon and bane to shadowruns.

It is a boon in that you can run to another country that doesn't much like or care of the one you just ran from.

Now here is here is the bane. If I want to go from seattle to LA, how many boarders do i have to travel threw? At least 2, one leaving the UCAS,and one entering the PCC. That is by sea or air. By land,I may have to to go threw 6 different boarders. Of witch at least 3 are hostile. Or I could go through the NAN, and only have to pass threw 4, less hostiles, but not by much. If i am a street sam, what is the easiest way to go there?

Now here is the problem, things cost to much. Fake IDs are either jokes or or not street level. Getting around things legally is to costly. Then you have to go for illegal means, witch means you will have fully loaded teams, well save riggers.

Now, in the US I can pack a SUV with bombs, so can my friends. we can leave from our city taking different roads heading to some place like DC. If we didn't do anything else stupid not one of us would have to explain a damned thing. We would only be caught after the fact. But really that is not the point. Either a team of runners at street levels going to be illegal human, cargo is without illegal cyberware, is if not,at least mainly magic, or they are staying in one country. If they happen to be in seattle, then that is where they stay.

Not exactly. They are two different movements. This administration has simply excelled at utilizing both neo-cons and the far-right.

I see that as much. However, you're missing my point. It rests not with what is being written, but how it is written.

Also, Seattle was effectively the center of the shadowrunner biz world for most of the life of the game.

Not sure what you're trying to say, I was simply pointing out that given the correct circumstances the neo-cons and far-right could eventually become an independent movement - ie. the ArchConservatives - which given the descriptions since NAGNA and Super Tuesday have been portrayed as having strong fascist leanings.

Well, speaking for myself ... there were three distinct settings from the beginning of 2nd edition - London, Germany and Seattle. Now, you were playing the US product line, so scratch Germany, that still makes two. More were added - Aztlan, the Tirs - under Fasa's rule, in the mid- to end-nineties.

All those settings made it clear that there are native shadowrunners there. So how do you get the idea that Seattle is the be-all end-all, only place where shadowrunners work?

Well, the sammies are expensive to move (or need Johnson's help), but Riggers are a tad magageable, but nothing larger than a Doberman or a Steel Lynx (if the GM is having a good day) can be moved, unless you play smugglers or conjure a really powerful spirit.

I love that idea, btw. Mind if I borrow it?

Penta's right. Archconservatives and Neo-Cons are two completely different beasts separated along the political spectrum. What you're describing as neo-cons is the aggregate of the American Right.

Something has become eminently clear--We are experiencing a complete failure at communication. I say that not only within the context of this post, but within the context of your perspective on what I said and what I said (and meant) being two completely different things.

It's never been about what gets covered. If Fanpro is going to publish a half-dozen or more books a year, they have to be about something. They can write a whole book on the mating habits of South American shapeshifters for all I care. The comments about "feel" (further specified what the "feel" was) go more towards how the book and its immediate predecessors are written in tone, style, and context.

That is what my comments have referred to.

The books were posted to Shadowland Seattle and commented upon by Seattle runners.

Of course the place books would have comments and a certain "local" perspective, but the context of the books still rested on the books being written for a Seattle runner's perspective.

And you know what?

How hard is this to understand? I've said it twice now.

I know there are other runners in the world

Stop putting words in my mouth, goddammit! I never said there weren't. I never said runs don't go on outside of Seattle. I never said an fucking thing like that.

What I said was that for the books, the center of the universe was (because it was) Seattle and Seattle-based runners.

Next time, try actually reading what I write instead of making shit up out of thin air.

"Seattle effectively was the center of the shadowrunning biz" - there are shadowrunners outtisde of Seattle, but they're few and far between. Note: that is wrong.

Now, that sentence does NOT go "Seattle was effectively the center of the Shadowrunner biz world for the books and flavour text, for most of the life of the game", which is (I think) what you wanted to say.

Take your time and formulate out what you mean, not cutting out essential pieces of what you inted to say, or live with the fact that people don't understand what you say.

You said it for yourself. Complete failure of communication. And somehow I get the feeling that it's not only the others' fault.

name any world book that feels the need to point out who is running all the AAA's at the city level. I see a lot of them refereing to seattle, but only bringing up city level for plot importance, and smaller corps. What I am saying is that, wile they may talk about the power players in denver in denver books. They talk about the power players of seattle in CD, and BiBR. Half the novels are based out of seattle and of those that are a large portion of them have character who are from there in one for or the other.

Germany II. It does that for five cities at once, though, but it's some 350 pages. But that doesn't count for you, I guess.

Besides, does giving the names of local corp leaders make the setting somehow central to the world?

Seattle is arguably the best worked out setting, since it's US default and the mainstay of SR modules are part of the US product line. But that doesn't mean it is the hub of the ingame world, and neither does it mean all game material must be presented as it is seen by Seattle runners. DE is quite right, that should have been changed long ago. I hope they'll seize the chance 4th edition presents to them and do just that.

You're both correct. Apologies. I meant PaleoCons, though in hindsight I believe NeoCons would be obvious allies for an ArchConservative movement given exactly their perspective of foreign policy and what they believe the U(CA)S role in the world (the Technocrats are another possibility but it depends on how linked NeoCons would be to megacorp power - admittedly a strong possibility).

I don't think we are experiencing a complete failure of communication. From what I understood of you're criticism you're not talking about the actual contents but about the perspective, views and overall approach voiced by those fictional authors writing those contents.

What I was trying to suggest that it was perfectly plausible that so different perspectives and focuses (foci?) could be chalked up to the fact that many of the people Capt. Chaos is calling on to provide this "globalized" information are not Americans (at least not UCAS-American) or even Seattle-based (though I like to think some might be American expats) and so their views and priorities are at odds with what you would expect (and arguably what was common in SR1 and early SR2 products).

Have I understood you correctly or am I off base?

Germay II, doesn't sound like a world book to me, that sound like a book built on one local. AGS. that is like saying that Tir books are world books....