I see how it could relate to the discussion on horrors (if it were slightly modified to address more than a part of one religion, such as by saying that "we torture each other to death on a whim" or whatever), but not so much with the dragons. The way they've been represented in the SR world, they basically are humans -- extremely powerful humans, mentally, physically and magically.

If people in the SR world are scared of dragons, it is (or should be) exactly because of that. Most of those "overgrown lizards" are just as willing to wage an NBC-war against the biosphere, except that they tend to have far more means towards that end than the average human. And, yeah, they are huge flying armored lizards, so trying to shoot them down with small arms should be a fucking stupid idea -- unlike in SR3 where a SMG APDS burst can easily kill an unboosted average dragon.

Of course humans have weapons quite capable of killing anything living a thousand times over, regardless of any defensive tech or magic or anything. But just because we got SAMs doesn't mean a GI shouldn't be wary of enemy air power on the battlefield.

They are, but then you have to drop them to Hull 2, 3 for the really big ones. Otherwise they'll be immune to everything non-Naval, which is hardly the purpose (ATGMs should still ruin their day, if you manage to hit them). Which sucks because it screws up a number of other scales -- for example, a Hull 2 dragon would basically be BOD 8 for spell targeting, not to mention how hard having 2 DamRes dice sucks.

It would be easier just to give them hardened armor weighted toward Impact. Say 4/8 hardened armor. Only the stongest human in the world would be able to punch out an elephant and they would have a difficult time doing it. A Troll weightlifter woul dhave an easier time, but then they should. Holdout pistols wouldn't be effictive against them, either, but sporting rifles would still make their day.

Also, it wouldn't nerf called shots to bypass armor against big critters. Hitting a vehicles engine with a rifle should suffer from damage reduction just the same as every other shot. Shooting an elephant in the eye should not suffer from any damage reduction. Staging down a bullet through the eyeball and into the brain shouldn' be easy no matter how big you are.

I left it as written. Dragons do not need to be supreme beings, especially Geyswain who was arrogant, young, and foolish.

I totally agree, however, it seems to be an unfashionable stance around here.

In my alternate setting, dragons were destroyed upon awakening, the few that initially survived after awakening wreaked havok upon the earth as they were hunted. Any that survived went into hiding. The dragon war was just another catastrophe that set the world back a bit. Dragons are more despised than vampires - at least vampires look/were human.

Ok, my love of bad 80's music and cheesy plot devices leads me to ask which one you had in mind?

My problem wasn't that Geyswain wasn't strong enough; it was that facing a dragon with a force 10 power focus and a half-dozen high-force toxic spirits in an area with a high toxic background count would have resulted in most or all of my PCs dying quickly. I didn't want to keep him as a dragon with attributes that were even wimpier than what he already had, so I decided he wasn't really a dragon after all, just an insane drake who thought he could become a dragon with the aid of the bottled demon.

hehe, I was thinking something like the Transformers Movie from back in the day.

As for Geyswain, I'm starting that one with a different set of runners acutally. I planned on keeping him pretty much the same, just changing his spell list a bit. He's supposed to be pretty messed up, so I was acutally thinking of lowering his armor a bit, or starting him with mounds, but some sort of pain resistance as well, since he's maddened now.

An Ork Shaman, an elf Mage, and a dwarf magician adept are sitting at a bar.

Dwarf: So there I was, sourounded by Knight Errant officers and no way out. So I called up a force 10 Great Form Fire Elemental that I had summoned and channeled it. I ust have killed 10 of them with my bare hands before I made my escape.

Elf: That's nothing. I almost channeled a Free Spirit once.

Dwarf: Almost doesn't count.

Ork: I channeled my totem once, for about 12 seconds. I'm still not sure how I did it. I was cut off from the rest of my team, surrounded by tanks and soldiers, and there was this dragon.

The Dragon spewed fire at me, but this old amulet that I stole from a museum the month before and wore because I though it was cool started glowing and the fire didn't even touch my.

The Dragon tried again. This time the amulet exploded.

I could feel my totem around me and inside me. I could feel its essence flowing through me, imbueing every cell in my body with supernatural power.

The Dragon took a swipe at me with its claws but I just picked it up and threw it into the volcano. Then it flew out of the volcano.

I though it would be easier if the dragon would just explode. It did.

Then the tanks and the soldiers started shooting at me. I just laughed. All of the tanks exploded and all of the soldiers exploded. Then, the volcano exploded.

I woke up in a Ukrainian hospital seven months later. I have no idea how I got there but I thank Toaster every day that I am alive.

Hey, chummer, another round of beer for everyone.

Bartender: I'm sorry sir, but I think you've had enough for this lifetime.

--------

That is what happens if the draogn is an adept.

Bottled Demon takes place (as written at least) in 2050.

I was thinking more of the magical amulet that lets you channel your totem as a cheesy plot device insted of something that was linked to Toaster specificly.

Dragons might have Magical Skills as part of their Powers. But guess what? Magical Skills do not include Adept powers (Critters) and dragons do not get access to Adept only Metamagics (DOTSW).

A great?

Player: Hahaha! direct hit 8 successes!
GM: Dragon uses a karma, reroll your successes.
Player: Crap (rolls) 3 successes.

Not to mention uber centering skills, spells at insane levels....
This discusion has been had before.

As to dragons, I usually assum that any stats provided in books are too low.

And I don't care if it has an int of 6, if it has been around for a few millenia, I'd expect it to know how to set a trap or 20 and be able to survive well enough.

Just my .02 , though.

Well, since you are not running things by the books, then maybe you should assume any stats provided to the PCs are too low as well. After all, after a couple of million years of evolution, init 6 is too low for any human.

Though I can apreciate the sarcasm, I'm not going by the archetype stats. That is a bit different than throwing out the rulebook.

Eh, as long as you're going through the effort to compensate for 18 points of recoil (which means a ton of effort and gear) you're better off going with something with a bit more substance, like a HV-modified HMG with power increase.