Ok, certain Feathered serpent in a certain adventure... well Hell it's Naheka... well.... he's a wuss. He's supposed to be the student of Ryumyo, and starting characters could take him if they're good.

Stats read like this (hopefully no admins will smack me for this)
Body 12 (
Quickness7
strength 32
zintelligence 6
Charisma 6
Willpower 8
Essence 10
MNagic 8
Reaction 7
init 7 + 2d6
attack 12 D +2 reach

conjuring 6
ett(tribal) 6
Interrogation 6
leadership 5
negotiation 5
Sorcery 8


And his spells are a joke. I already have a loose write up on how to fix it, but I'm looking for specifics. Mostly, looking for special htings that only Lung could have taught Ryumyom and were passsed on, like special spell,s etc

Unless you decide that this dragon is one really bad mojo slinger, his stats aren't that off base for a normal feathered serpent.

Body and Strength value are unfitting for me. Would raise body to sth. 18.
What are his powers?

powers were Enhanced Senses, and hardened armor

Spells:
manablast 6
sleep 7
analyze truth 5
Mind probe 8
Mask 5
overstimulation 7
mana barrier 8


And the adventure describes him as instant and absolute death should the PC's be so foolish as to fight him

'If the runners decide to fight Naheka, let them have it....Hey, chummer, anyone stupid enough to fight an angry dracoform deserves what he gets."

As written , as well equipped and well played gorup of beginning characters could take him out. THat's just. So far, I've upped some skills at Att's, going to quicken a few spells ( such as increase Attribute), and add some metamagics such as shielding. He is apprenticed to RYumyo after all.

Hardened Armor and Mana Barrier with force 8 give him a slight edge over newbie chars as it's unlikely that they'll do much damage to him either psysically or via magic.

You should add some spells, raise his body & intelligence (i consider even a young dragon to be highly intelligent) and remember: dragons are never caught alone nor unprepared. Some servants, some traps and some quickened spells support this dragon just fine when fighting.

Do dragons take drain? If not, Manablast 6D each turn with 48m radius should do the job. Also, conjuring 6... he didn't get that skill just for show. I also don't think dragons are limited by tradition, so he could have 2 elementals appear and lay down the smack while a nature spirit provides backup and a wujen elemental wreaks havoc. Not to mention the 12D with +2 reach and base 7 dice of skill.

I don't see what the problem is, unless you have like 8 PCs armed with military weapons.

He's as intelligent as a starting character can be. So no, I do not think he's any more intelligent than a normal PC.

Dragons take drain, the only exception is Innate spell, but it seems he doesn't have it.

Kids these days. I remember groups attacking Neheka...the physad with the dikoted™ katana, the merc with the Panzer Assault Cannon...ahh, good memories.

When converting Neheka to today's stats, you may need to increase his power level, especially if your runners aren't fresh and bloody from the womb. That said, play intelligently. Neheka should go for the magicians first, will keep a distance with any close-up deadly adept types, and blast sammies with spells. He'll cordon off those he can with barrier spells to deal with later, and it's not unreasonable for him to have a couple of elementals on hand to either aid with the spellcasting or keep his foes busy.

Look at the Feathered Serpent in DOTSW and extrapolate from there. The serpent in the book is an average, so you might have bigger or smaller ones.

Remember that the stats given in the book are for 'average' dracoforms, dragons have to be below average as well... As for being the student of someone, well whiney 'but I don't want to go to Alderan' farm boy was the student of a great warrior and general, but he didn't suddenly gain leet jedi skills from it.

So, this dragon might, in fact, be <gasp> below average, and the student of the other dragon so that he can get better... Sure he might be comparatively easy to whack, but the older dragon might want to have a few words with you over the matter.

Unless you make said whacking to be part of the Rite of Succession. Then that is just serving notice.

Really, there were a lot of opponents in modules that were supposed to be "instant death" yet were pretty easy to defeat. The power level of enemies even against non min-maxed characters, even archtypes in some cases, were a joke. That was one of my main problems with adventure modules in general.

Very much agreed. The basic security guard was always overmatched by our decker. Our decker for God's sake!

my general fixes so far have included upping the mental stats by 3, , Quickeness and body by 2, extrapolating of that fact that he's a leadership type, and would therefore focus more on his mental abilities . I also upped his social skills to about 9, and was thinking conjuring of about 10-11, sorcerery aroud 12+. The group that will be running this have an average of skills around 8, and their main skills (sorc for the mage etc) around 11.

Backing him up, a few metamagics such as invoking, shielding, centering, and quickening. I was considering quickening a few increase attributes, an armor (say Force , increased initiative, and combat sense. Also considering a shielding foci, and perhaps a reusable anchoring foci with a high force Heal spell.

Also, if they do fight, he would be coming into the situation prepared, knowing what's ahead. So a few great from elementals (say around force 10) and a couple of spirits as well. This is all stuff that the group is capable of, so it's not overwhelming, but I'm looking to place him in the superior category. Anyone know if a dragon can channel? And how would their claw damage go up from a strength increase? Also, I hate the fact that their melee skills are based off of reaction, since putting them against an adept with attunement (sword) and +1 reach is going to make them pretty gimped in melee. Anyone ever tried a 'claw 'skill, or something equivelant?

I ask because knowing my players (one or two in particular), there's a pretty good chance they'll give it a go.

has anyone else been through this adventure? How many actually fought the dragon? how did it go? I know some of the other possibilites, so please don't post them since my players do read this board, just interested in how some of the fights turned out.

Also, as far as metamagics go, would dragons initiate the same way? in the ranks system, or would hey simply know the metamagics? I ask for prposes of how much shiedling they can apply, invoking, that sort of thing.

Add a moderate force improved invisibility with a sustaining focus (or have an elemental sustain it, whatever). That +8TN is nothing to sneeze at.

Have him keep a pack of watcher spirits running air cover (see MITS). Anyone who goes astral -- say, to see the invisible dragon -- suddenly gets attacked by a pack of watcher spirits. While these aren't very dangerous individually with only (Force)L damage, the friends in melee TN thing adds up really, really fast.

Add an anchoring focus or two -- like a mid-high level physical barrier with detect bullet, -- any time you shoot bullets at him, out of nowhere, a barrier appears and deflects (or weakens) them.

Give him mob mind -- got a sammy or two with low willpower? Suddenly, they're chopping down your party's mage. Whoever wins that fight, the dragon gets the better of it; want to dispel the control thoughts? Cool -- resist (Force/2+1)D drain.

Give him the "fling" spell, and have him toss around neurostun or superflash grenades.

If they fight him outside of his lair, he should get the drop on them (which is the only reason he would likely leave the lair); if they fight him in his lair, it's almost certainly booby trapped, and has big time surveillance, so he still gets the drop on them.

The lair is already set, and if they decide to fight, it starts , at least, inside. Plenty of chances to out though, which would be fun.

For spells, I was also thinking some fun stacked combos, since he could handle the drain, like Decrease Will power + manabolt of a sammy, and a force 8 Inflame to ignite clips is one round automatically.

I like the idea of passing off spells to sustain, like throwing up a Force 8 Chaos on the mage, and having an elemental sustain it, while another holds of a Spell Wall on it' s self, the other elemental, and the dragon (Spell wall is the area effect version of Spell shield, ups t# for spells).

Keep 'em coming. I'm especially looking for ideas for unique magic tricks that he may have learned from Ryumyo, like unique spells and metamagics the PC's will have never seen before.

have him transform all the PCs into cute, fuzzy rabbits!

then quicken it! perfect!

indeed. although i would suggest shrugging on some armor before you head to the gaming table that day. you know, just in case.

to gaurd against agnry players that are upset that the dragon drops them off at the local pet store?

Reminds me of a D&D game fiend of mine played. They came to this old cornes house into the woods. Little old lady type cottage, chickens running around all overthe place, lots of hay, that sort of thing. She takes them in, makes them some chicken stew or whatever, gives wm a bed. They eventually find out that she's a witch, they attack , she polymorphs them all into chickens. The cycle continues.

Personally, I'd be more inclined to do the mob mind thing than the manaball/manabolt, but that's just my opinion. Why kill the sammy when you can turn him on his buddies and then kill him at your leisure? Far, far more effective when you can pass the sustain onto an elemental, and imo, more dragonlike.

Also, if I were the dragon, I'd be more partial to dropping a smoke spell than a manaball or bolt; it's more likely to affect the group's mages (not willpower based), it fills in stun boxes (make mages REALLY think about drain), AND it adds a vision based TN modifier (being smoke and all).

A pretty fugly opening salvo would be mob mind and smoke. Enslave the stereotypically low willpower sammies and send them after those who resisted, stun up the mages, and laugh maniacally right before you blink out of existence (invisibility). Against all but the most powerful parties, that's check-mate right there.

Someone else suggested magic fingers as a nasty-dirty trick -- pull the pins on the grenades on their belts, etc.

Flame aura if the enemy is melee heavy.

honestly, there's little reason that the dragon couldn't throw all three spells at once, Decrease will, manabolt, and mob mind. The problem is that the group is a bit mage heavy, and that's a lot of spell defense to go around. And a lot of dispelling. And while it may be metagaming to plan for that, it's not for the dragon to observe this.

A high initiave, and a few area effect spells such as power ball, confusion to jack up t#'s without modify them for the dragon as smoke would, and some decrease spells would seriously limit their ability to defend by burning out pools and weakening their defenses.

Follow that by indirect attacks, with things like magic fingers, inflame on magazines and armor, a High force magic fingers to yank away unsecured foci and fetishes. With elementals, he can burn enough services to gain extra dice to do this fairly quickly. Add in a spirit or two doing accident just to make life difficult, and a group can get overwhelmed pretty quickly, especially with a good defense.

I'm thinkg for defense, probably a shielding focus, quickened armor (probaly force reinforced with karma, quick increse body and combat sense , and a spell wall, although not sure if I want that on an elemental or a focus. Havne't relaly decided how much foci I want the dragon to have. Could a dragon jsut swallow all his foci and acitvate them that way? It's 'on ' his person. 'course he'd have to re swallow them a bunch, and they'd probably taste nasty.....

Judging from his stats it looks like a regular dragon. My group curb stomps any regulars we come across. Our GM finally gave regular dragons great dragon stats and greats are somewhere above this. Which "fixed" the problem as the heaviest ordinance any of us carry are assault rifles, which really don't have an effect on "greats" at all.

Your groups regularly fights dragons?

Actually, on average, a customized High Velicity assault rifle (but not an Ares HVAR) loaded with APDS and with enough recoil comp will kill a Great Dragon with a single 18-round burst.

I was honestly surprised that a group might be able and willing to take down some dragons without facing retribution by some other dragons. Hopefully the opportunity to slay a dragon didn't occur more than once or twice. After all, this is not D&D.

If a dragon is weak enough to be taken down by some of the "lesser" races, then I do not think any of the other dragons is going to shed a tear over its demise. Unless the group actively goes hunting dragons, I doubt the other dragons are going to have a problem with them killing off their rivals.

Oh, and don't forget the totally wondiferous spirit power of confusion. A high level confusion will make them think twice about attacking that dragon. Literally. They'll need to make a Willpower(Force) roll to do anything, in additition to +Force to target numbers. Okay. Bad pun.

And AFAIK, not subject to spell defense.

Spell defense is subject to +TN, yes? Then just start with the confusion; let's see how well that spell defense does at +10TN from the confusion

IIRC, dragons have immunity to toxins. I wouldn't be surprised if his home turf has something like NeuroStun delivery systems (or nastier). His place probably is also to some degree aspected for dragon magic (+ to PC target numbers, power site for him)

Assuming that the dragon follows canon dragon rules without additional GM fiat: The dragon could lose to an initiated Adept. And it loses so bad it isn't even funny(and I'm not even talking about those melee adepts... a social adept can do this).

DotSW lists a few more powers that dragons may have, but are not universal. Of those, fear or influence can easily shift combats in a major way. I don't mean to say that the other listed optional powers won't shift the combat, but those two can be an instant party of player on player carnage.

To be fair we are a fairly large group (8 players). We also have two people at any time that can control drones, plus atleast two magicians for spirits/elementals. So the dragons usually are fairly well outnumbered. We've also never fought in a dragon's lair, so can't really comment on that.

I do remember our dismay when our GM boosted the dragons power. Ended up having to repeatedly ram the damn thing with our Wandjina's and run, because we'd used all our ammo and our casters were keeling over from drain with their spirits gone. Not fun.

I don't think dragons would all unite just the related ones.

I remember Neheka. The group I was running that campaign for opted to do battle with him (and despite it suggesting that the players are doomed if they fight Neheka, the plot kind of railroads them into his death resulting in them obtaining the least-screwed outcome). The samurai (starting character) went first and shot him twice with a recoil-adjusted combat shotgun on burst mode. Neheka died. Rather anticlimactic.

If I wanted to power up Neheka, I'd extrapolate the racial modifiers for a dragon of his type from the critter statistics (i.e. subtract 3 from all statistics) and then give him a few fives, a six or two, or maybe even a seven. I'd make him a Grade 6 Initiate with Shielding, Quickening, Invoking, Masking, Centering, and Divining. I'd give him 8 on all his magical skills (Sorcery, Conjuring, Centering), have him in possession of quickened Armor, Astral Armor, Improved Reflexes, and Combat Sense spells, and possibly give him a power focus.

I would have the full complement of spirits possible for him to reasonably be expected to summon, great form if possible, on-hand and ready when the players arrive. I would up the Force of his spells to uniformly be in the 8-10 range, and give him some tactical spells like Chaotic World and Mass Agony. He would probably want to start combat by creating a physical barrier spell with no spell pool employed (i.e. only Sorcery and Centering) seperating himself from the runners while maintaining his spell defense, and then hang back and performing tactical spellcasting (cranking up people's TN# modifiers) while his spirits handle the physical gruntwork on the other side of the barrier.

Of course, if you do that, your players' characters will most likely die, unless they have some seriously impressive on-the-fly planning abilities, skills, and equipment. However, that is what the writer apparently intended the outcome to be in the event Neheka was challenged, so that isn't necessarily a dealbreaker.

Thanks WK , that's a lot aong the lines of what I was thinking. After looking over the stats, my first thought was "you've gotta be joking!" Not really all that suprised the first shot brought him down , off of the stats in the book. Sad though.

Oh, and food for thought. I believe the canon setting indicates that Neheka survives the events in Paradise Lost, and he appears in novel and sourcebook references set after the adventure's conclusion.

The PCs kill it but the GM HOGs Neheka.

yeah, he shows up in DoSW. Hopefully it won't come to that. But waht can I cay, I just love making nasty dragons anyways! Plus, hell, knowing my group, they'll attack, start losing, then try bargaining

That's normal for players
Btw, where does Neheka reappears in DotSW?

Ryumyo chapter. Under Servants and Allies.

Thank you

Along the same lines: Has anyone else re-written the dragon in Bottled Demon?



How did everybody else handle this?

Wreck: Guns. Its a nice suprise to throw at a group of pcs that is both non leathal and generally means "F8ck off". Just remember that dragons have spell pools too.

Adept with Background 10 Virtuso and Quick Strike. Generally means "F8ck off" to dual natured beings, of which dragons are a subset of. And by canon, dragons don't get access to this metamagic.

I hate dragons. Fucking hate them. Or, more precisely, the way most of humanity seems to have just rolled over as far as dragons are concerned in SR, and all the "oh, no, we can't do that, we'll make the dragons mad" crap.

We were ready to nuke the better part of the planet for 40 years, just over competing human ideologies, and suddenly, we're sensibly scared of a bunch of overgrown lizards?

I like the "We put poisons in our water and air to weed out the weak! We detonate fission bombs in our biosphere! We nailed our god to a stick! Don't fuck with the human race!" approach much better...

/rant off

How did your players get all that hardware to Hawai'i anyway? I remember doing that module with like...Uzi IIIs and crap.