An initiated mage is a mage that has increased their magical abitlity. Their magic rating goes up, they can mask spells and foci. the optical system was something that I read about a long time ago. Since a mage cannot cast through eletronic systems, they can us natural optics to enhance their vision and cast combat spells that directly affect the target. Ie... if you can see him, (and aura) you can hit him. So they can use binoculars or a fiber optic system, similar to the along distance parascope or peep hole.
Full Version: GM needs serious help
| QUOTE (Nyxll) |
| An initiated mage is a mage that has increased their magical abitlity. Their magic rating goes up, they can mask spells and foci. the optical system was something that I read about a long time ago. Since a mage cannot cast through eletronic systems, they can us natural optics to enhance their vision and cast combat spells that directly affect the target. Ie... if you can see him, (and aura) you can hit him. So they can use binoculars or a fiber optic system, similar to the along distance parascope or peep hole. |
exactly!
You could majorly rip him up or....
just have them stun him and donate him to a particularly nasty science experiment!
Then you can give him his heart's desire! have the next mission revolve around the characters trying to rescue him... or not ... depends what his fellow players think! he he he
EVILNESS REIGNS SUPREME! MWAHAHAHAHAHA!
Initiation rules are listed in Magic in the Shadows.
They get extra benefits at the cost of karma, including Masking (which can be used to make them look unAwakened), Centering (reduces target number modifiers from things like damage), Anchoring (putting spells down to go off at certain points, like the infamous Bullet Barrier/Detect Bullet spell combo).
One way to save a Mage when he's getting shot at? Initiate him once (3 karma to join a group, then 9 karma to Initiate once with the Oath Ordeal, 12 karma total) and give him Anchoring. Give him Detect Bullet and Bullet Barrier at a high force (6ish works). Set the Detect Bullet radius to 2 meters out (you can increase or decrease the radius of a spell by withholding dice). Put a Bullet Barrier in the Anchor as well, with a radius of 1 meter (possibly less).
As soon as he's shot at, the Detect Bullet finds the bullet and sets off the Bullet Barrier. Bingo, instant Mage-saver!
As for the gunbunny... Mages tend to target the ones with the most nasty looking toys first. Hit him with things that target him directly and can't be dodged. Manabolt works very well for this if he has a low Willpower. Powerbolt if his Body is low. If not, and he does have one low Attribute, use a Decrease Attribute spell (who wants to bet his Charisma is abysmal?) against him and see if he can function when it hits 0. (Hint: He can't. Any Attribute hits 0 and they cannot function at all. Body 0 means he's getting sick from the dust mites in the air. Quickness 0 means he can't move a muscle. Strength 0 means he's a parapalegic. Charisma 0 means he has the social graces of an ape. Intelligence 0 means he's brain dead. Willpower 0 means "go jump off a cliff" will actually work on him. Very annoying thing to have an Attribute dropped to 0 in the middle of combat.)
They get extra benefits at the cost of karma, including Masking (which can be used to make them look unAwakened), Centering (reduces target number modifiers from things like damage), Anchoring (putting spells down to go off at certain points, like the infamous Bullet Barrier/Detect Bullet spell combo).
One way to save a Mage when he's getting shot at? Initiate him once (3 karma to join a group, then 9 karma to Initiate once with the Oath Ordeal, 12 karma total) and give him Anchoring. Give him Detect Bullet and Bullet Barrier at a high force (6ish works). Set the Detect Bullet radius to 2 meters out (you can increase or decrease the radius of a spell by withholding dice). Put a Bullet Barrier in the Anchor as well, with a radius of 1 meter (possibly less).
As soon as he's shot at, the Detect Bullet finds the bullet and sets off the Bullet Barrier. Bingo, instant Mage-saver!
As for the gunbunny... Mages tend to target the ones with the most nasty looking toys first. Hit him with things that target him directly and can't be dodged. Manabolt works very well for this if he has a low Willpower. Powerbolt if his Body is low. If not, and he does have one low Attribute, use a Decrease Attribute spell (who wants to bet his Charisma is abysmal?) against him and see if he can function when it hits 0. (Hint: He can't. Any Attribute hits 0 and they cannot function at all. Body 0 means he's getting sick from the dust mites in the air. Quickness 0 means he can't move a muscle. Strength 0 means he's a parapalegic. Charisma 0 means he has the social graces of an ape. Intelligence 0 means he's brain dead. Willpower 0 means "go jump off a cliff" will actually work on him. Very annoying thing to have an Attribute dropped to 0 in the middle of combat.)
For small unit tactics, see cc.105
Basically, you roll small unit tactics skill and compare results against the TN for each member; 4 for direct LOS, 6 for radio only, 8 for LOS but no audio (hand gestures); -2 for battletac cyberware, -1 for non-cyber battletac, and +/- for perception and wound modifiers. This takes a complex action (or simple action with BattleTac cyberware) at the end of each turn; if only modifying for yourself, it costs nothing.
For every two successes, you can get either +1 initiative, +1 combat pool, or +1 reaction for an ambush situation during the next combat turn.
This is ideal for a rigger; he can issue commands to his drones (if needed) on his first action in a phase, and issue commands on his second action (using direct command mode to get LOS)
Also, if the guy with the small unit tactics skill has a tactical computer, he gets +1 to his skill for every two senses connected to the tactical computer. Basically, you can expect that each "drone" has one or more senses you can connect; if your team members have a radio and cybereyes, you can connect those in also. You can potentially end up adding double-digit numbers of initiative and/or combat pool if you have the system setup right. It is limited by reaction however, so usually the most you're going to get is 4-6 with a security guard group.
Basically, you roll small unit tactics skill and compare results against the TN for each member; 4 for direct LOS, 6 for radio only, 8 for LOS but no audio (hand gestures); -2 for battletac cyberware, -1 for non-cyber battletac, and +/- for perception and wound modifiers. This takes a complex action (or simple action with BattleTac cyberware) at the end of each turn; if only modifying for yourself, it costs nothing.
For every two successes, you can get either +1 initiative, +1 combat pool, or +1 reaction for an ambush situation during the next combat turn.
This is ideal for a rigger; he can issue commands to his drones (if needed) on his first action in a phase, and issue commands on his second action (using direct command mode to get LOS)
Also, if the guy with the small unit tactics skill has a tactical computer, he gets +1 to his skill for every two senses connected to the tactical computer. Basically, you can expect that each "drone" has one or more senses you can connect; if your team members have a radio and cybereyes, you can connect those in also. You can potentially end up adding double-digit numbers of initiative and/or combat pool if you have the system setup right. It is limited by reaction however, so usually the most you're going to get is 4-6 with a security guard group.
Another thing that noone has mentioned thus far is to use combat perception tests to eat up thier actions. Your gun bunny in not omnicient. He might not immediatly perceive everything thats going on in his combat environment. He might pop up and shoot the guards he can see and then get shot by the one he didn't even know was there.
This is why they went through all the trouble of detailing what levels of preception require what actions.
Note also that vision mods and what not apply to perception. He will need to take one test with mods to spot the guard and another test with mods to hit him....
(edit: shoot/shot.... why does english have to have such screwy conjugation rules...)
This is why they went through all the trouble of detailing what levels of preception require what actions.
Note also that vision mods and what not apply to perception. He will need to take one test with mods to spot the guard and another test with mods to hit him....
(edit: shoot/shot.... why does english have to have such screwy conjugation rules...)
As far as the double-laser sight thing goes, there is no logical reason against it other than game balance. The "logical" reason is the whole tracking-targets thing, but I can personally track between 4-6 targets at once, so a single target +2 laser dots is well within my capability. A shadowrunner with pistols (6) can certainly handle it.
That's why I say -- it's in the rules. As a GM, you think it's unbalancing. The correct answer is: "The rules say so. The GM says so. That's the way it is. It's unbalancing to have lasers AND ambidexterity AND dual-wield of pistols. Don't argue with me. I don't want to hear it. That's the way it is. Oh, you're still arguing with me? Roll suprise. You're suprised. Resist 14D, half armor from the Barret Model 121 someone just fired at you. Dodge? You're suprised, you can't dodge. They shot again, resist again. Oh, you're dead? Make a new character. Why did they shoot you? Uh, you killed a bunch of guards in front of security cameras. They can watch video, you know. And no, you can't take aptitude for an active skill. Sucks to be you."
Basically, what you need to do is make it clear when you will brook no argument, and players need to learn not to cross this line; if they don't get it by your tone of voice, remind them that the GM is God. They who rail against the Gods reap only grief; if they push you, make sure they reap one hell of a harvest.
Also, what kind of flaws does this guy have such that he has fricking 12+ points of edges? TAKE ADVANTAGE.
That's why I say -- it's in the rules. As a GM, you think it's unbalancing. The correct answer is: "The rules say so. The GM says so. That's the way it is. It's unbalancing to have lasers AND ambidexterity AND dual-wield of pistols. Don't argue with me. I don't want to hear it. That's the way it is. Oh, you're still arguing with me? Roll suprise. You're suprised. Resist 14D, half armor from the Barret Model 121 someone just fired at you. Dodge? You're suprised, you can't dodge. They shot again, resist again. Oh, you're dead? Make a new character. Why did they shoot you? Uh, you killed a bunch of guards in front of security cameras. They can watch video, you know. And no, you can't take aptitude for an active skill. Sucks to be you."
Basically, what you need to do is make it clear when you will brook no argument, and players need to learn not to cross this line; if they don't get it by your tone of voice, remind them that the GM is God. They who rail against the Gods reap only grief; if they push you, make sure they reap one hell of a harvest.
Also, what kind of flaws does this guy have such that he has fricking 12+ points of edges? TAKE ADVANTAGE.
| QUOTE (Yoan @ Jun 24 2005, 08:38 AM) |
| Decking: I've grown skilled at running the Matrix & the Real World simultaneously, but maybe that's not to everyone's liking. My justification is: when two PC's are in two different buildings, what do you do? Same thing, here.... |
I think this is the key. You need to make decking and integral part of the plan. Make it so they can't get through area A or door 56 without the decker on overwatch.
The first objective for just about any run should be getting the decker into a position where he can jack in. This is especially true of "cold storage" systems or systems with vanishing SANs (i.e.- not connected to the matrix). Most deckers aren't very good at infiltration or combat, so it will require help from certain other characters. His escorts must then move into possition while he hacks in. If you are already using combat iniative things will be going in turns and he can be making all his initail access and analyse tests while his escorts are making stealth tests and what not to get to where they need to be.
In the meantime other team members can be scouting the exterior of the building, deploying drones, sniping guards on the roof.... basically overlap all the setup your decker has to do to own a system with all the setup the rest of the team should be doing anyway.
You can also introduce unrelated delays into the real world that require your runners to wait and give your decker more time. For example, your infiltration expert can't run from the bush she's hiding in to the window because theres a guard meandering by. The player will not loose interest while waiting because there is tension in the story to keep him/her focused (and not rushing out for a pizza) but the decker player will have a few minutes to roll some extra dice.
ALSO: you need to make sure that any player who wants to play a decker READS and UNDERSTANDs the matrix rules inside and out. He should be working out what his next action is, what system test he needs to make, which programs apply, etc. all while other players are resolving thier actions. By the time the GM gets back to him the only thing he should need is a TN to roll against, and usually you (as GM) aren't going to tell him what it is anyway. The matrix aspect bogs down when the GM needs to explain the rules to the player at each and every action.
| QUOTE (Vaevictis) |
| As far as the double-laser sight thing goes, there is no logical reason against it other than game balance. The "logical" reason is the whole tracking-targets thing, but I can personally track between 4-6 targets at once, so a single target +2 laser dots is well within my capability. A shadowrunner with pistols (6) can certainly handle it. |
No. Using two pistols is not effective, period. If it were, every cop and special operator out there in RL would carry two and double fist it all the time.
The fact is it cuts down on accuracy and increases recoil on a fundimental level (you uses symetric body position to deal with recoil. You cannot do that with half your body). The human brain has some fundimental limitation when it comes to aiming at two targets. Its why we have binocular vision that converges on one point in space that we are focusing on. You can MENTALLY be aware of multiple targets and thier movements, but you cannot aim effectively (i.e. align your sights/body/eyes) on more than one at any given instant, especially under stressful combat conditions when your fine motor control goes out the window.
Contrary to Hollywood action movies, its just not realistic, and the rule reflects that.
| QUOTE (Method) |
| Another thing that noone has mentioned thus far is to use combat perception tests to eat up thier actions. Your gun bunny in not omnicient. He might not immediatly perceive everything thats going on in his combat environment. He might pop up and shoot the guards he can see and then get shot by the one he didn't even know was there. This is why they went through all the trouble of detailing what levels of preception require what actions. Note also that vision mods and what not apply to perception. He will need to take one test with mods to spot the guard and another test with mods to hit him.... (edit: shoot/shot.... why does english have to have such screwy conjugation rules...) |
oooooohhh! ur mean!
I love it!
never thought of that, only to see first group. hmm maybe my campaign tommorrow will be harder than i thought. hehe
Also, just how many points did you allow for edges?
I see 12 points when the usual cut-off is 10. Max-Ambi is 8, and I think I recall aptitude is 4, might be 3. it's an illegal chracter. to late to fix now, but keep it in mind later.
I see 12 points when the usual cut-off is 10. Max-Ambi is 8, and I think I recall aptitude is 4, might be 3. it's an illegal chracter. to late to fix now, but keep it in mind later.
| QUOTE (Method) |
| The fact is it cuts down on accuracy and increases recoil on a fundimental level (you uses symetric body position to deal with recoil. You cannot do that with half your body). |
Duh, that's what recoil compensation is for. Realistic? Maybe not. But it's a game mechanic. And recoil is not the issue.
| QUOTE (Method) |
| You can MENTALLY be aware of multiple targets and thier movements, but you cannot aim effectively (i.e. align your sights/body/eyes) on more than one at any given instant, especially under stressful combat conditions when your fine motor control goes out the window. |
You're telling me that if you have two pistols at 5-10 meters range, you can't track three targets? Specifically, the guy you're trying to shoot, and the two dots you're putting on his chest?
Keep in mind I'm not saying that you're AIMING at three targets; you're AIMING at one, but TRACKING three "targets" at the same time. That's something that's doable.
EDIT: Maybe when I say tracking, you think I mean aiming -- maybe that's more proper terminology for firearms? I'm thinking radar -- I can be aware of and really _understand_ the behavior of 4-6 objects at a time without any real difficulty. Beyond that, it gets tougher; 10 or so is about my maximum.
Spark- yes it is evil.
But, to be fair, I can't take full credit for this little gem. I didn't do this until someone else on this board pointed it out in an old thread- i think it might have been Kagetenshi...
But, to be fair, I can't take full credit for this little gem. I didn't do this until someone else on this board pointed it out in an old thread- i think it might have been Kagetenshi...
i might be wrong on this but you are saying that the gunbunny have a pistole on 6 and adept thingies, edges and what not and an offhand pistol of the same? i'm not sure on the rules but at least in my home games offhand can only be half on the main hand skill level and can use only have the combat pool so it would be like
pistol-6
offhand pistol 3
he has a total of what 9 combat pool maybe and can use
12 dice with main hand and 9 with offhand the first rolls and then he is out of dice then next round. add in his adept and edges things .
you say he can use 10 dice with both hands without combat pool. so if he really really wanted he could use 19 with his first shoot?
pistol-6
offhand pistol 3
he has a total of what 9 combat pool maybe and can use
12 dice with main hand and 9 with offhand the first rolls and then he is out of dice then next round. add in his adept and edges things .
you say he can use 10 dice with both hands without combat pool. so if he really really wanted he could use 19 with his first shoot?
| QUOTE (Vaevictis) |
| Keep in mind I'm not saying that you're AIMING at three targets; you're AIMING at one, but TRACKING three "targets" at the same time. That's something that's doable. |
Then we agree that mentally tracking and physically aiming are two different things...
A LS isn't going to do dick for you tracking a target you aren't aiming at.
And the fact remains that in RL it is just not effective to try and aim accurately with two hand guns, even at the same target. I have done this in RL on a range and I can't hit shit...
But SR is a game and its soposed to be fun and if people like the idea of two pistols the rules are there to support it. Just not two LSs...
you don't need off-hand with full ambi
| QUOTE (Nyxll @ Jun 24 2005, 05:22 PM) |
| Ie... if you can see him, (and aura) you can hit him. So they can use binoculars or a fiber optic system, similar to the along distance parascope or peep hole. |
You do not target auras unless you are perceiving astrally; even then you can hit things with a powerbolt that have no auras.
We rule that you cannot see auras in a mirror, or through fiber optics - only light reflects, not auras.
I have a player who used the "If I can see him, I can hit him with a spell" and refused to believe that cover modifiers applied to casting spells, even thought the SR3 explicitly states this. I cured him of this the next time he tried to take cover behind a desk.
"You've been been hit with a Serious Powerbolt."
"But I'm behind a desk! He can't see me!
"He dropped prone, and could see the bottom half of your boots under the desk, through the 2" gap between the desk and floor. He could see you. He can hit you. Roll Damage resistance."
After that he decided cover modifers *were* a good idea for spells.
Thinking about it, if the guy argues "logic", you could use Method's argument against using two firearms at once, and limit his ambidexterity with two firearms to SS weapons only -- ie, normally, you can only fire a SS weapon once per turn, but with two and ambidexterity, you could alternate firing them.
Or, alternatively, you could rule ambidexterity only reduces the target number offset for your second hand; the +2 modifier is not related JUST to your reduced proficiency with the offhand, but is also related to the difficulty of tracking with two weapons at once. To fully elminate the modifier, he'd have to take the multi-tasking adept power.
... and when he complains about, "But the rules say...", your easy answer is, "Well, you wanted logic to apply when it came to your laser sights. Which way do you want it?"
Or, alternatively, you could rule ambidexterity only reduces the target number offset for your second hand; the +2 modifier is not related JUST to your reduced proficiency with the offhand, but is also related to the difficulty of tracking with two weapons at once. To fully elminate the modifier, he'd have to take the multi-tasking adept power.
... and when he complains about, "But the rules say...", your easy answer is, "Well, you wanted logic to apply when it came to your laser sights. Which way do you want it?"
| QUOTE (Qillin) |
| i might be wrong on this but you are saying that the gunbunny have a pistole on 6 and adept thingies, edges and what not and an offhand pistol of the same? i'm not sure on the rules but at least in my home games offhand can only be half on the main hand skill level and can use only have the combat pool so it would be like pistol-6 offhand pistol 3 he has a total of what 9 combat pool maybe and can use 12 dice with main hand and 9 with offhand the first rolls and then he is out of dice then next round. add in his adept and edges things . you say he can use 10 dice with both hands without combat pool. so if he really really wanted he could use 19 with his first shoot? |
There is no such thing as an off-hand skill for ranged weapons. It only exists for melee weapon skills.
For ranged weapons you use the same skill for both hands. You roll the full skill rating twice, once for your primary hand and once for your secondary hand.
For melee weapons you do only get half the off-hand skill. I believe it does this because you aren't rolling each hand separately, you are rolling them together as a single attack.
Besides, he does have full-ambidexterity which allows you to simply use 1 1/2 times the main skill instead of having to buy a separate off-hands skills.
| QUOTE (Method) |
| The matrix aspect bogs down when the GM needs to explain the rules to the player at each and every action. |
Indeed. My decker is new, but since I start all PC's off slightly weaker, this is explained:
He doesn't have a plethora of programs. The programs he does have, he knows how to use.
His contact serves as something of a 'mentor' for anything he might not know.
The player knows the Matrix rules marginally, but he's a fast learner... I've seen deckers who knew the rules in and out, coupled with the GM's "simultaneous Decking", and it created a very strong dynamic that went by rather fluidily.
| QUOTE (Yoan) | ||
Indeed. My decker is new, but since I start all PC's off slightly weaker, this is explained: He doesn't have a plethora of programs. The programs he does have, he knows how to use. His contact serves as something of a 'mentor' for anything he might not know. The player knows the Matrix rules marginally, but he's a fast learner... I've seen deckers who knew the rules in and out, coupled with the GM's "simultaneous Decking", and it created a very strong dynamic that went by rather fluidily. |
speaking of which, does anyone have, or know of a reference sheet for decking. i.e. a .doc or pdf type file which can just be a quick glance sheet?
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| Also, just how many points did you allow for edges? I see 12 points when the usual cut-off is 10. Max-Ambi is 8, and I think I recall aptitude is 4, might be 3. it's an illegal chracter. to late to fix now, but keep it in mind later. |
That's false. There's a suggested five-edge+five-flaw limit on different flaws (without respect to values) and a suggested ±6-point swing maximum (that is to say, how many build points are being gained by uncompensated flaws or spent on uncompensated edges), but there's nothing about a maximum total value of edges or flaws.
~J
yeah there is no offhand ranged weapons skills because sr didn't want to put them in, as you can see they are vary deadly. Why is it ezer to use 2 pistoles then 2 knives? there is a melee off hand skill that has restrictions on it but using a gun is you left hand when you are right handed uses the same skill ? thats just wrong. I can shoot a gun with my right hand fairly ok but put it in my left and watch out . and i'd say i have about 2-3 ambidexterity edge in Rl, i guess maybe with alot of practice with my hand in firing a pistole i could get better but they would deffinently different skills.
so maybe with full ambidexterity you could get you offhand up to the same skill as your main hand but they would be different skills just like melee weapons.
Thou sr doesn't say you can't fire guns with you off hand they didn't put in an offhand skill.
can you give a bk and pg# where it says you use you main hand skill when using a gun in you off hand?
so maybe with full ambidexterity you could get you offhand up to the same skill as your main hand but they would be different skills just like melee weapons.
Thou sr doesn't say you can't fire guns with you off hand they didn't put in an offhand skill.
can you give a bk and pg# where it says you use you main hand skill when using a gun in you off hand?
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||
That's false. There's a suggested five-edge+five-flaw limit on different flaws (without respect to values) and a suggested ±6-point swing maximum (that is to say, how many build points are being gained by uncompensated flaws or spent on uncompensated edges), but there's nothing about a maximum total value of edges or flaws. ~J |
It seems a fairly common limit for some reason though. I know for the first SR character i ever built the GM told me no more than 10 points + and -. I remember distinctly because i misunderstood and thought he said a limit of 10 Flaws and 10 Edges. I'm not sure my first draft of the character even made it under that. Man that was a nasty gross character.
| QUOTE (Qillin) |
| yeah there is no offhand ranged weapons skills because sr didn't want to put them in, as you can see they are vary deadly. Why is it ezer to use 2 pistoles then 2 knives? there is a melee off hand skill that has restrictions on it but using a gun is you left hand when you are right handed uses the same skill ? thats just wrong. I can shoot a gun with my right hand fairly ok but put it in my left and watch out . and i'd say i have about 2-3 ambidexterity edge in Rl, i guess maybe with alot of practice with my hand in firing a pistole i could get better but they would deffinently different skills. so maybe with full ambidexterity you could get you offhand up to the same skill as your main hand but they would be different skills just like melee weapons. Thou sr doesn't say you can't fire guns with you off hand they didn't put in an offhand skill. can you give a bk and pg# where it says you use you main hand skill when using a gun in you off hand? |
sorry to ruin that guys fun but I just found the rules for dual wielding in CC and you DO uuse half skill for off hand
"A character with the 6- 8 point version of this edge does not need to purchase and Off-hand weapon skill (thus implying that for anything lower you do), to use a secondary weapon. The secondary askill still applies only half its dice(round down) to the attack test." CC pg 96 righthand column
I give players a max of 5 edge points that must be compensated by 5 flaw points. If they want more flaws after that, they can knock them selves out....
Of coarse the real key is to not let them take any flaw they aren't going to RP or that won't affect the character's performance...
If they know they have to deal with the flaw it will make them think twice about stocking up on edges...
If they know they have to deal with the flaw it will make them think twice about stocking up on edges...
| QUOTE (Spark) |
| sorry to ruin that guys fun but I just found the rules for dual wielding in CC and you DO uuse half skill for off hand "A character with the 6- 8 point version of this edge does not need to purchase and Off-hand weapon skill (thus implying that for anything lower you do), to use a secondary weapon. The secondary askill still applies only half its dice(round down) to the attack test." CC pg 96 righthand column |
Again... That's for melee weapons only. Having an off-hand weapon doesn't let you make two attack rolls in melee, it just adds dice to the roll equal to 1/2 the off-hand weapon skill, and this example is just clarifying that with maxed-out ambidexterity, that's still how it works.
well with that rule. the guy still wouldn't be rolling the same amount of dice for each hand . which is this thing CrystalBlue should do interested in.
and my question about the rule was pertaining to using a gun which i see no mention of in that rule
side note: my last post was all opinion and the asking for the rule i know it wasn't going to be what i opinion was stating
and my question about the rule was pertaining to using a gun which i see no mention of in that rule
side note: my last post was all opinion and the asking for the rule i know it wasn't going to be what i opinion was stating
| QUOTE (Spark @ Jun 24 2005, 02:43 PM) |
| sorry to ruin that guys fun but I just found the rules for dual wielding in CC and you DO uuse half skill for off hand "A character with the 6- 8 point version of this edge does not need to purchase and Off-hand weapon skill (thus implying that for anything lower you do), to use a secondary weapon. The secondary askill still applies only half its dice(round down) to the attack test." CC pg 96 righthand column |
You seemed to have missed the section that deals with ranged combat. Read the part at the bottom of CC pg 94 titled "Two-Weapon Ranged Combat".
In your quote you are skipping the part that deals with firearms:
"Every 2 points of Ambidexterity Edge allows a character to reduce by 1 the +2 penalty per weapon for using a second firearm."
| QUOTE (Spark) | ||||
speaking of which, does anyone have, or know of a reference sheet for decking. i.e. a .doc or pdf type file which can just be a quick glance sheet? |
There's the actions sheet on the official SR page, but it lists ALL free/simple/complex actions... it also adds commands from the 'Matrix' book, if you're using that.
http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/resources/shee...rence_sheet.pdf
It lacks everything else (program info, etc) but... well, it's better than nothing. I actually made my own, and am working on a new one for SR3 'Revised', which will hopefully cut out a lot of clutter.
| QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 24 2005, 08:19 AM) |
| And, as for the rest -- just make sure you're applying every single TN mod listed in the book. Double check the stuff for visibility, especially. |
And people still wonder why they say Shadowrun is hard to learn...
Memorizing TN modifiers sure is my idea of a good time!
Alright.. speaking as someone who plays a similar character (non-adept, but house ruled stuff on smartlinks)..
There are ways to deal with it. The theoretical lowest you can get the base target numbers is -3. (Aptitude + attunement + laser)
Recoil can be negated (And should be, if you're using SS/Semi-automatic)
Lightning modifiers can pretty well always add at least +1.
Cover and Concealment always apply.
The ways that my character's been "handicapped"?
Wounds. Especially stun.
Cover/Concealment.
More targets then he can shoot. (Typically goon/thug, all capable of shooting back..)
Heavily armoured, high body opponents.
Visibility. As in, invisible. (Astral perception? Sure -- but no laser sight bonus, and a +2 modifier, +background count if there is one.)
I still drop at least one goon/thug per pass typically, but I don't drop the 3 that I can under optimal conditions. The last two shots are hard. Heavily armoured ones? Multiple karma rerolls and or karma burnt. On called shots. It's been 4 karma burnt, called shot at TN 10-12 before.
There are ways to deal with it. The theoretical lowest you can get the base target numbers is -3. (Aptitude + attunement + laser)
Recoil can be negated (And should be, if you're using SS/Semi-automatic)
Lightning modifiers can pretty well always add at least +1.
Cover and Concealment always apply.
The ways that my character's been "handicapped"?
Wounds. Especially stun.
Cover/Concealment.
More targets then he can shoot. (Typically goon/thug, all capable of shooting back..)
Heavily armoured, high body opponents.
Visibility. As in, invisible. (Astral perception? Sure -- but no laser sight bonus, and a +2 modifier, +background count if there is one.)
I still drop at least one goon/thug per pass typically, but I don't drop the 3 that I can under optimal conditions. The last two shots are hard. Heavily armoured ones? Multiple karma rerolls and or karma burnt. On called shots. It's been 4 karma burnt, called shot at TN 10-12 before.
Heh, just wait until your players get wise to the visibility modifiers, and the gun adepts start playing with combinations of blindfighting adept power, enhanced senses, ultrasound vision, and gyroscopes in cyberarms.
Suddenly, the worst visibility-based TN you will generally be able to impose is +2. No more penalties for moving around. Even MORE recoil compensation. Yucky, yucky, yucky.
Suddenly, the worst visibility-based TN you will generally be able to impose is +2. No more penalties for moving around. Even MORE recoil compensation. Yucky, yucky, yucky.
But hopefully by then they will will have to buy those things in game which means lots of karma, or lots of 
and recovery time...
and recovery time...
| QUOTE (Dawnshadow @ Jun 24 2005, 02:52 PM) |
| Multiple karma rerolls and or karma burnt. On called shots. It's been 4 karma burnt, called shot at TN 10-12 before. |
yes karma don't forget that pc have it too. my gm uses it. and it does help the pc's from dying so fast or atleast faster tehn the gm wanted.
| QUOTE (Vaevictis) |
| Heh, just wait until your players get wise to the visibility modifiers, and the gun adepts start playing with combinations of blindfighting adept power, enhanced senses, ultrasound vision, and gyroscopes in cyberarms. Suddenly, the worst visibility-based TN you will generally be able to impose is +2. No more penalties for moving around. Even MORE recoil compensation. Yucky, yucky, yucky. |
yeah but then whats the point of being an adept with all that cyberware?
| QUOTE (Nerbert @ Jun 24 2005, 04:22 PM) | ||
And people still wonder why they say Shadowrun is hard to learn... Memorizing TN modifiers sure is my idea of a good time! |
1) Can we try to keep forums, if not threads, at least vaguely contained please?
2) The GM's screen covers nearly all modifiers. Moreover, it is now free and available in PDF form, and is eminently printable.
~J
| QUOTE (Qillin @ Jun 24 2005, 05:30 PM) |
| yeah but then whats the point of being an adept with all that cyberware? |
Why, min-maxing of course. You can get the eyes and arm for just under 1 point, if alpha-wared. Pop in ultrasound vision, flare comp in the eyes, stuff a gyro in the arm, spend .5 on vision mag 3 and night vision, .5 on blind fighting adept power, and hurrah for you -- you still have 4 power points left over.
4 power points is still plenty to twink the hell out of an adept, and at this point, the worst case visibility modifier is +2 (by my reading anyway), you have 3 points of recoil compensation, and -3 to all your movement based TN modifiers.
OTOH, adding smoke cancels laser sight also, so... I guess net +3, if you want to include that.
Don't even think about it Qillin (not that I can stop you). If we want to enforce the rules to their max though...we will. 
Players reading these forums may be hazardous to the GM
Players reading these forums may be hazardous to the GM
| QUOTE (Vaevictis) | ||
Why, min-maxing of course. |
And, y'know, not being a one-dimensional character.
Not that it isn't perfectly possible to play a purity-of-essence Awakened character, I at least find that 'wareless Awakeneds get old very quickly. As small an addition as a datajack makes the character more believable, in my opinion.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jun 24 2005, 06:37 PM) |
| Not that it isn't perfectly possible to play a purity-of-essence Awakened character, I at least find that 'wareless Awakeneds get old very quickly. As small an addition as a datajack makes the character more believable, in my opinion. |
... and he can have jack itch, and be a pacifist, and he used to work at Renraku until his sister goblinized and Renraku sent her away, so he leaves Renraku to find her, and he finds out that he's a shaman, and that his totem is dog, and that his shamanic talents are why he has the jack itch, so he has the jack removed, and because he's a pacifist, he only uses Neurostun dart guns, and he finds out that his sister is a wolf shaman, and that she became a Wendigo, and he makes friends with Dodger, and oh, his name is Twist.
Oh, and by the way. Never deal with a dragon.
He's got my vote for inclusion in the Top 10 Most "Evil" Canon Characters list.
~J
~J
I'm of the opinion that EVERY character (even magical characters) should have a data jack. The benefits of having one in the world of 206x just plain out weigh the drawbacks.
| QUOTE (Method) |
| I'm of the opinion that EVERY character (even magical characters) should have a data jack. The benefits of having one in the world of 206x just plain out weigh the drawbacks. |
Not necessarily. I'd have some enhanced eyes and ears before I give most characters a 'jack. Doubly so if they aren't there for posterity's sake, but for the sake of enhanced senses without taking up powers/spells to get them.
And a gun adept with a Smartlink II, eyes with Thermo, Optical Mag 3 and Flarecomp and ears with Select Sound Filter, Hearing Amp and a Dampener is just superbly useful. Especially if his gun has a scope with a gun cam, low-light and ultrasound built in.
Well sure, we can all sit down and figure out cheep 'ware packages that have disproportionately huge benefits to this character or that.
What I'm saying is that in the Matrix-emersed world of 206x having a data jack would just benefit everybody across the board from Joe Bartender to your otherwise "pure" magicans. Its more of a RP/setting thing to me.
What I'm saying is that in the Matrix-emersed world of 206x having a data jack would just benefit everybody across the board from Joe Bartender to your otherwise "pure" magicans. Its more of a RP/setting thing to me.
Trodes?
Trodes?
Yeah, but then what about jacking a radio? or a battletac unit? or an external router attached to all kinds of stuff? or a car?
Yeah, but then what about jacking a radio? or a battletac unit? or an external router attached to all kinds of stuff? or a car?
iirc, trodes work for all that stuff. Just a _little_ bit slower 
Well certainly nothing just a _little_ bit slower could be a detriment to a shadowrunner... 
Yeah, hmm. Datajack, or 20% more powerful spells. Datajack, or 20% more powerful spells.
Nah, I'll just leave that sh*t to the decker.
Most of the time, dabbling just gets you killed.
... now, if you already had cause to use other cyberware (Smartlink, anyone?), and had a spare .20 essense just sitting there taunting you ... that might be another story.
Nah, I'll just leave that sh*t to the decker.
Most of the time, dabbling just gets you killed.
... now, if you already had cause to use other cyberware (Smartlink, anyone?), and had a spare .20 essense just sitting there taunting you ... that might be another story.
Even then, if you wanted that annoying wire sticking out of your head when you used a Smartlink-capable gun, you could get a 'jack instead of the induction pads.
Then again, who wants that annoying wire sticking out of their heads when they're trying to shoot things?
Then again, who wants that annoying wire sticking out of their heads when they're trying to shoot things?
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