If it were level III (which it isn't), it wouldn't fool anybody for a second at long distances if you have to move around even a bit. A 10" x 12", 1" thick rectangle resting at your center mass is hardly inconspicuous -- even less so when you'd have to pick up a separate carrier like these.

That makes me throw up a little in my mouth.

? I don't get it.

Suit vests aren't quite as common these days as they once were, but they're far from a rarity. VIPs (who that vest is meant for) might well wear one just because they happen to like wearing them with suits. And the average member of the social circles where such vests are used is hardly going to suspect it's an armored vests -- at most he might think it's not very stylish.

Fool? Or just not be so damn obvious.

The bit about the right to arms happens to line up more or less with my personal opinions, but I was not injecting it just for the fun of expressing my opinion while suppressing all dissent. I'll admit I was editorializing on the bit about armor, but that's because it really is insane to make purely defensive measure illegal. So nyah.

Seriously, I just want to avoid getting yet another thread closed because it derailed into talking about the right to arms. It happens enough here, and it'd be nice if it could happen less (possibly with an OT forum).

That's a tough one to call. It doesn't look anything like a real piece of clothing, and I think most people who anything about clothes will notice that. The average exec isn't likely to know lots about body armor and small arms, though, so that one can go a lot of different ways.

It is very obvious, however, that something's up. Also, I would go so far as to call suit vests a rarity; not a complete anachronism like a bowler or a 19th century style collar, but even so.

Arethusa:

Only if your opponent got close enough for you to head-butt him/her.

--Foreigner

I can only speak for what people wear here, but I certainly see 3-piece suits often enough not to call them rarities.

I guess the real question is, does it make the armor less obvious than if you were wearing a standard concealable vest under your suit shirt? And can you think of a way to hide body armor better in an occasion that calls for a suit?

+

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I know you guys put that to bed, but I just had to make my nods. <3

Butto be less off topic than I usually stray, I think this is a fascinating discussion of sociopolitics, and I think the more we better our understanding of such things, the better grasp we have of how the sheeple will flock in game. <3

Don't know what you mean by "much more firepower", but you certainly do need more, or more accurately placed firepower. If someone is wearing a level III-A vest, the likelihood of disabling them with a 9x19mm pistol JHP fired at the torso is going to be in the same order of magnitude as a shooting a .22 at a naked torso. I find it immensely unlikely that blunt trauma similar to being hit in the torso with an extendable baton is as effective in disabling a target as crushing a hole through them.

sidartha: A nice example of body armor in action, if a tad extreme...

That all depends on the professional level/experience of the person being shot, and what they are shot with. Just look at the North Hollywood shootout that happened several years ago. Those bankrobbers had on what...NIJ Level IV protection? They were hit MANY times and barely flinched. I would say that someone wearing a vest who's been shot before in combat will know what to expect and can fight on.

Sure, that overweight executive desk-jockey will probably go zero-to-fetal when he takes his first 9mm FMJ to the vest, but you can bet his bodyguard won't.

I've got some friends in Iraq that have told me some stories about getting hit by enemy fire during an engagement and not even realizing it until after the fight is over.

The way I handle this, in game, is to give NPC professional ratings. Your non-combat NPCs will usually collapse at a light wound, while your hardened FRT member will keep fighting probably all the way up to one block before a deadly wound.

Probably closer to level III. It was just several layers of flexible armor, wasn't it? You'd need a whole lot of kevlar to stop an armor piercing .30-06. I haven't seen any actual footage, though, so I wouldn't know. Anybody know how they were eventually killed?

Normally level III and IV include rigid armor plates, which basically eliminate the blunt trauma. In the heat of battle, a hit at level III armor could easily go unnoticed.

Good citation, it's one I've used in presentations in CJS classes, but I gotta say, I feel like there's a fine line between a kevlar vest or liner and the kind of gear those guys had.

For the sake of discussion;
What about that disenfranchised dude who welded metal plates to a piece of construction equipment and went on a rampage? (was that in colorado or something?) Do we (or does a restrictive government in the not so distant SR future) ban or severely restrict construction equipment, welding equipment, or big steel plates? Slippery slope!

Probably not, those things aren't designed specifically to prevent damage from a physical conflict/confrontation, whereas a kevlar vest is designed for that. Thusly the contruction equipment has an appropriate time and place and can other wise be misused. Just like how spray paints or spray whipped cream can be used to get high. Can not kevlar vests also have an appropriate time and place, but also be misused? Like the newspaper delivery boy who works in a bad neighborhood? Or someone who works alone in a liquor store?

True enough. I'm of the types who thinks the government should be as out of the way as possible. As long as exercise of our free will doesn't prevent or harm another person while excerising their free will, or end up costing someone tax dollars... well, you get the idea.

Mosh pit .

If hits to the body armor, in spots that had not already been hit, penetrated, then they obviously didn't even have level III-equivalent, just level III-A by a huge margin. Still, it's true that body armor in general is not designed to make getting hit comfortable, just survivable.

fair enough, just like they are no longer allowed to vote.