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Buzzed
The rule of 6 might still be around in SR4. Here is what I think the new rule of 6 will be:


SR4 Rule of 6:

Whenever a die rolls a 6, it automatically grants the roller an additional die. Any additional dice rolled will also be eligable under the rule of 6.


This new rule of 6 will have the same translated effect as the old rule of 6. It would make it possible to do the impossible. Theoretically providing a possible unlimited number of successes from any number of dice. It would make it possible to do the impossible.
hermit
Do you have inside info, or is this just an educated guess?
blakkie
I'd like to see that too. Sadly it sounds like it will only happen when tapping your Edge. frown.gif

I don't consider it terribly good news. Before that info came out i know someone here (forget their name, i think it started with an 'n') had suggested that exploding 6's were somewhat of a slowdown because of the number of times you needed to pick up dice and reroll. While that is true i do like what the exploding dice do for the roll outcomes.

I'll have to see how Edge actually works to see if it fills in and negates my disappointment.
Buzzed
QUOTE (hermit)
Do you have inside info, or is this just an educated guess?

Purely an educated guess.
hermit
The person-with-an-n (crimsondude3.0?) was right, though - this mechanic WOULD slow down gameplay significantly, as it would mean fiddling-more-dice-out-of-the-dice-box, and that would likely jeopardize any gains in speed made by ditching variable TN.

A simple "six counts as two hits" or something would go much faster and still have some sort of a rule of six, even though it was a capped, crippled one.
blakkie
QUOTE (hermit)
The person-with-an-n (crimsondude3.0?) was right, though - this mechanic WOULD slow down gameplay significantly, as it would mean fiddling-more-dice-out-of-the-dice-box, and that would likely jeopardize any gains in speed made by ditching variable TN.

A simple "six counts as two hits" or something would go much faster and still have some sort of a rule of six, even though it was a capped, crippled one.

No, it was definately NOT any version of Crimsondude. I meant the name started with a small letter 'n', not just one somewhere in the middle. nyahnyah.gif
sanctusmortis
6=2 successes worked for Exalted. Heck, it'd definately work.
Hell Hound
Whilst I haven't had a chance to actually play Exalted I am familiar with the rule system and it doesn't really feel the same as Shadowrun. If I recall correctly no success test would ever have a 'threshold' greater than 5 and most would only require 1 success. Exalted is also about characters on a heroic scale along the lines of greek mythology, in that situation being able to achieve significant results with one success makes sense, you don't want to be bothered with dice rolls for boring daily tasks when your characters are supposed to be out killing demi-gods. In Shadowrun there are more of those mundane tasks (searching the black market for goods, fencing stolen gear, checking in with your contacts, etc) and they are more important to the game than they are in Exalted because of the nature of Shadowrun. I can see Shadowrun 4th edition involving more dice per average roll than Exalted, thus thresholds will be higher and thus tasks may be impossible for characters with low skills and attributes even with the 'two successes for a 6' mechanic.

I may of course be proven completely wrong, and I hope I am, but I worry that the game may lose that little gem it always had in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition; that a character always had some chance of success in a test no matter how astronomical the difficulty.
hermit
Well, for that case where the low-skill, low-attribute character really wants to do something heroic and very, very hard to do, he has Edge, which seemingly has an exploding sixes mechanism. Just having this as regular mechanic would slow down the game to SR3 speed, and they sought to speed things up, didn't they?

Hmmm. This doesn't sound too bad, actually.
Nerbert
Exploding dice have nothing to do with SR3's speed. What slowed the game down was the constant necessity of counting and keeping track of two or three completely unrelated numbers, comparing all of them and translating them into game activities. Which is not to say that such a feat is difficult, its just annoying, cumbersome and breaks the feel of combat down into a bunch of empty dice rolling around with no actual drama.
hermit
No, exploding dice have nothing to do with SR3's slowness. I never said that. But it WOULD slow the game down significantly if it affected all rolled sixes.
blakkie
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 27 2005, 04:09 PM)
No, exploding dice have nothing to do with SR3's slowness. I never said that. But it WOULD slow the game down significantly if it affected all rolled sixes.

I wouldn't say nothing, but i think they are a relatively small percentage compare to other issues in SR3, which might be why i never really thought about it as an issue. Besides with SR3 TNs so often higher than 6 the thought of not rerolling sixes isn't even close to a viable possibility in the system. Just thinking about it is way outside the SR3 box.

Extra rolls & time spent on exploding 6's is also a worse issue with SR4 if the number of dice you'll roll is around the 20%-30% more than in SR3 per roll that i forsee.

EDIT: I also happened to enjoy the "Christmas Morning" feeling of rerolling 6's. A good part of why i was disappointed to hear of there near demise. Hrmm, wonder if my characters will have a tendancy to be stocked up on Edge? cool.gif
Nerbert
See, in my experience, rerolling dice is more fun then rolling them to begin with. It means you managed to pull off something special. I've never gone "Groan, not more 10s to reroll. Oh man! More! I'm doing so well at this action that I want to stop!" Plus, even other people watching have something to be excited about. "Well, thats one, two, three... wait, there's more. Four... five! Hooray!"
Fortune
I think an 'exploding 6' rule should be standard across the board, and that Edge should more resemble the old Karma Pool's reroll ability.
Kremlin KOA
incidentally it seems that exploding 6s give the same average success chance as 6= 2 successes... interesting how the math worked out

(as the explosions are extended infinately the chance becomes one extra success per 6 dice....)
JesterX
SR4 will be so much similar to Heavy Gear RPG! ^_^

Looks like the Margin of Success will work in a VERY similar way...

You can find more info on Heavy Gear products there: www.dp9.com

I just hope that this will not bring up some kind of lawsuits against FanPro...
blakkie
QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)
incidentally it seems that exploding 6s give the same average success chance as 6= 2 successes... interesting how the math worked out

(as the explosions are extended infinately the chance becomes one extra success per 6 dice....)

I don't think that is right. 6=2, 5=1, 1-4=0 gives an average of 0.5 successes per die. 6=1, 5=1, 1-4=0, with exploding 6's gives you 0.4 successes per die. You'd need to have 6=1.4, 5=1, 1-4=0 to give you the 0.4 average (notice that the 0.4 extra is the same as recuring through exploding 6's as it would be from a starting roll, this is due to the infinite recursion always giving you the same further down no matter where you start on the path).


Kremlin KOA
let me just recheck the maths blakkie
using 6 dice as the example (makes the maths easier)
not going past 10 explosions (head hurts)

6 dice = 2 successes...

oh wait I see the error in my calculations

you were right

(typed in real time as I checked my notes

blakkie thanks for helping me notice my error

quickly explaining the calculations
6 dice = 2 successes
+ 1/3 of a success
+ 1/18 of a success
etc etc
had it at 2/3 of a success
interestingly all successes explode would produce the .5 chance



blakkie
QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ Jun 28 2005, 03:58 PM)
interestingly all successes explode would produce the .5 chance

It is also the average for straight TN4. But the distribution curves look very different. Between the former two i'm not sure the difference in the curves, have never really looked at them. EDIT: Outside the obvious that 5's and 6's exploding will have infinite possible hits and 6=2 will have 2*dice maximum possible hits, meaning for the same average they'll have to have more possibility of lower results than TN4.
Taki
QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)

quickly explaining the calculations
6 dice = 2 successes
+ 1/3 of a success
+ 1/18 of a success
etc etc
had it at 2/3 of a success
interestingly all successes explode would produce the .5 chance

I does agree with your formula
chance of success 2/6 by dice + chance of rerolling first time 1/6 multiplied by 2/6 + chance of rerolling for the N th time 1/6 exp N * 2/6

but for 6 dices... =2+1/3+1/18+1/(18*6)+1/(18*36)+1/(18*36*6)+1/(18*36*36) = 2,399991426612

So the average success per die is 0.399998571... (stoping counting after the 6th reroll)

I don't think going until infinite for reroll will updrage that average by .1 - or my scientific mind is quite wrong ...
Kremlin KOA
the .5 reference was a concept that if both 5s and 6s got rerooll + success you would get 1 success per 2 dice on average
Taki
Thanks.
I have misanderstood the "interestingly all successes explode would produce the .5 chance"
It is just what is writen ... let's say it's heat in my brain ...
MYST1C
This thread in the German FanPro forum sums up a FanPro Q&A held at a recent German convention.
A new Rule of 6 was presented there (but is not officially finalized) that is bound to the new Edge attribute (use not finalized, too):
When (and only when!) Edge is used to augment a dice roll sixes explode. This means they count as one "hit" (5 or 6) and may be re-rolled. Each one showing a 5 or 6 counts as another hit (it is not detailed if they explosion stops there or continues should further sixes be rolled).

The use of Edge as detailed there (subject to change) is like this:
How often and how much Edge can be used is regulated by the roll you augment with it.
Example: You have a Strength of 4. That means that during one adventure/session (timeframe not specified) you could use Edge 4 times to give up to 4 bonus dice (number of bonus dice is of course limited by your Edge value) for Strength-based checks.
blakkie
Interesting. Both '5's AND '6's explode. That makes it rather powerful. That also sounds a bit different than what mfb was talking about Edge "patching" things up -after- the roll failed. Damn i hope someone here with a keen memory goes to Origins this weekend. smile.gif

EDIT: That would also mean you still only need 3 colours on pipless dice. One for '1' (assuming that is important for the new Rule of Ones, they didn't talk about that did they?), one for 2-4, and one for 5 & 6.
MYST1C
QUOTE (blakkie)
Interesting. Both '5's AND '6's explode.

You got that wrong!
Only 6s explode! But with a fixed TN of 5 each 5 is another hit.

Example:
9 dice (3 attribute, 3 skill, 3 Edge) = 2,2,3,6,1,5,6,6,3 = 4 hits (6,5,6,6)

Re-roll three 6s = 3,4,5,6 = 2 additional hits (5,6)

Re-roll* one 6 = 5 = 1 additional hit (5)

Total: 7 hits with 9 dice

* = It's not clear if only one re-roll is made or if re-rolling continues as long as sixes are scored.

This mechanics means that, provided you're lucky, more hits than dice available are possible.

To sum it up
Each 6 is a hit and allows re-rolling, possibly scoring an additional hit and possibly allowing further re-rolling, but only when Edge is used!
No Rule of 6 if Edge is not used!
blakkie
Sorry, i misunderstood the meaning of this sentence: "This means they count as one "hit" (5 or 6) and may be re-rolled."
blakkie
QUOTE (M$T1C @ Jun 29 2005, 03:24 AM)
The use of Edge as detailed there (subject to change) is like this:
How often and how much Edge can be used is regulated by the roll you augment with it.
Example: You have a Strength of 4. That means that during one adventure/session (timeframe not specified) you could use Edge 4 times to give up to 4 bonus dice (number of bonus dice is of course limited by your Edge value) for Strength-based checks.

I don't have a very good feeling about that variation. Obviously i haven't played it, so maybe it feels different there. But tracking 8 different Edge use totals? Hrmmm, attack of the bean counters.

Edge is most limited, both its size and uses, where it is most likely to be needed? Sounds like double-dipping on the penalties, kicking the gimp when he's down while giving a serious boost to the whiz specialist when operating in his field.
Buzzed
QUOTE (M$T1C @ Jun 29 2005, 05:38 AM)
To sum it up
Each 6 is a hit and allows re-rolling, possibly scoring an additional hit and possibly allowing further re-rolling, but only when Edge is used!
No Rule of 6 if Edge is not used!

Yup, looks like there won't be exploding 6's for non-edge dice pools.

I also noticed an assumption in your post. It is popularly assumed that exploding sixes are available for the whole dice pool when edge dice are added. But maybe they meant that exploding sixes are available with the Edge dice only.

If using Edge makes exploding 6's available to the entire dice pool, and if edge is a limited source of dice that does not replenish itself during a run, then we would find a trend with players adding just one edge die to rolls.
hermit
QUOTE
I also noticed an assumption in your post. It is popularly assumed that exploding sixes are available for the whole dice pool when edge dice are added. But maybe they meant that exploding sixes are available with the Edge dice only.


No assumption. Behold:

QUOTE
You can add edge dice to your tests, based on the attribute's level. Only when this is done, may sixes be rolled again. Every additional 5 rolled then is counted as another success [hit? - hermit -] (this applies to the complete test).
blakkie
QUOTE (Buzzed @ Jun 29 2005, 12:21 PM)
QUOTE (M$T1C @ Jun 29 2005, 05:38 AM)
To sum it up
Each 6 is a hit and allows re-rolling, possibly scoring an additional hit and possibly allowing further re-rolling, but only when Edge is used!
No Rule of 6 if Edge is not used!

Yup, looks like there won't be exploding 6's for non-edge dice pools.

I also noticed an assumption in your post:

Maybe they meant that exploding sixes are available with the Edge dice only, instead of exploding sixes available for the whole dice pool when combined with edge as seems to be popularly assumed.

I hadn't assumed that at all myself before. Given that mfb seemed to imply you did the Edge after the fact. Not that enacting the Edge couldn't let you just pick of those already rolled 6's, avoiding some guesswork since you'll know if you how many 6's you'll have to work with there. Plus the reason you give below. I guess i find myself at the mercy of M$T1C's (and hermit's smile.gif ) translation. At least until Monday.

QUOTE
If using Edge makes exploding 6's available with the entire dice pool, and if edge is a limited source of dice that does not replenish itself during a run, then you would find a trend of players adding just one edge die to rolls.


What M$T1C is describing certainly does seem to put the full stop to that technique as what he is describing means that how many Edge dice you use at any given point isn't player selected, and is only related to the number of times you can use Edge via having a common source of calculation.
Buzzed
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 29 2005, 02:28 PM)
QUOTE
I also noticed an assumption in your post. It is popularly assumed that exploding sixes are available for the whole dice pool when edge dice are added. But maybe they meant that exploding sixes are available with the Edge dice only.


No assumption. Behold:

QUOTE
You can add edge dice to your tests, based on the attribute's level. Only when this is done, may sixes be rolled again. Every additional 5 rolled then is counted as another success [hit? - hermit -] (this applies to the complete test).

I see. Well you can count on me making my edge pool as high as possible then.

I can see characters with low edge already being gimp compared to high edge characters.

Bring on the one edge rolls baby! (Makes me wonder why they even bothered to limit exploding sixes to edge-enhanced pools. I guess I will have to wait until August to find out why.)
hermit
Edge can't be used for all tests though, it is 'spent' like reroll KP dice. And attribute raising is supposed to be more costly than now. I guess this calls for min/max-ing and a lot of statistics calculations ... smile.gif
Nerbert
QUOTE (hermit)
Edge can't be used for all tests though, it is 'spent' like reroll KP dice.

I'm not sure there's really any evidence of this. It makes a lot of sense, but without any rules for refreshing your "edge pool" then there's really no context for a discussion. If it refreshes automatically, when and how often? If its not automatic, then it holds a huge amount of influence over character behavior.
hermit
QUOTE (Nerbert @ Jun 29 2005, 09:53 PM)
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 29 2005, 01:34 PM)
Edge can't be used for all tests though, it is 'spent' like reroll KP dice.

I'm not sure there's really any evidence of this. It makes a lot of sense, but without any rules for refreshing your "edge pool" then there's really no context for a discussion. If it refreshes automatically, when and how often? If its not automatic, then it holds a huge amount of influence over character behavior.

QUOTE (FanPro Germany - translated by yours truly @ Jun 29 2005, 01:34 PM)
The use of edge also is limited by the attribute's level (meaning a number of dice at the attribute's level, to be used a number of times equal to the attribute's level).
Fortune
Yes, but when does it 'refresh'? When you have used your Edge for the maximum amount of times, when does it become available again?
hermit
Like with Karma pool ... GM's discretion? That'd be my favourite solution, at least.
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