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hermit
See the original article here.

QUOTE
Posted by Bannockburn

You asked for it (you know what I'm talking about, Razz).

Topic #1: A short comprehension of changes (information here should be found in the FAQs, for the most part, but is provioded here again for comprehensiveness).

SR4 is supposed to be out at GenCon05.

Before it's out, the following sourcebooks are slated to hit the shops:
- Loose Alliances (already out in English)
- Shadows over Asia/Latin America (the latter either as a hardcopy book or in PDF form, a decision on that is up to FanPro US and has yet to be made).
- System Failure, which is intended to be a "passover campaign" between SR3 and SR4. System failure is supposed to tidy up the metaplot, tie up loose ends and create tabula rasa.

The intention of SR4 is to streamline the system by summarising rule mechanisms.

Riggers and deckers are integrated and there will be more emphasis put on integrating these characters into the game. The reason for this is riggers and deckers using similar hardware, but implement it differently (compare drones and programs, especially the remote control program).

Another (personal?) goal of Rob's is to make SR4 harsher and more gritty.

The BBB shall suffice for playing the game.

Street Magic will be the first source book to come out

Before SR4 is out, "Shadowrun: die 6. Welt", a book in novel format that offers background about Shadowrun's editorial background, short stories and interviews with the game's makers.

Running Wild will come out after SR4.

Old background books will still apply.

Topic #2: Questions [posed on the FanPro D forums, - hermit -]. I won't repeat the questions here and will just tell you the answers.

Block 1: Numbercrunching
Attributes stay as they are, only that Quickness and Intelligence are split into two, which is reaction and agility (working title?) respectively logic and perception. The reason is that even the dumb troll who can neither read nor write is able to spot someone on a roof, pointing a gun at him. Should be obvious. wink.gif

Magic is supposed to be a "buyable attribute" at chargen. This means you first purchase an Edge (magical talent) [ger. Vorteil, not sure if they really mean an Edge, - hermit -] and then invest building points into buying a magic attribute. How this attribute is suposed to be raised further ingame, especially with "I bought magical talent and instead of buying magic I bought me cyberware for two essence points" is still being finetuned, but it's being considered. Essence doesn't change.

The initiative system is seeing a reworking too. How, where and why is still being fine tuned and thus, I can't say anything about it.

Skills will be compressed respectively newly distributes. Thus, there will be the skills Pistols, short and long blade weapons [Kurz- und Langwaffen, if someone gets this translated better, I'd appreciate this, being no gun bunny myself, - hermit -], but also spell deflection, spell defense and ritual magic, and special hacking skills (hacking, remote controlling).

The current dice pools are being eliminated. Instead, the dice you roll for making tests is considered a dice pool.

Ther will be a fixed TN of 5 (fixed means it never changes, smartasses). Instead of leveling TV, difficulty is managed using a success threshold, which can be modified by surroundings, wounds and other fun stuff. Also, the number of dice rolled can be modified (dice added/removed) in certain circumstances (by cyberware, extremely difficult tasks, and such things).

A dice pool usually is a number of dice determined by adding skill level to attribute level, modified as stated above.

There will also be a special attribute that can be raised like all others. "Edge" is a mix between the old karma pool and the ordinary dice pools, and it can be used to make tests easier. This attribute also is intended to level the playing field for those intending to play non-cybered mundane characters.

You can add edge dice to your tests, based on the attribute's level. Only when this is done, may sixes be rolled again. Every additional 5 rolled then is counted as another success [hit? - hermit -] (this applies to the complete test). The use of edge also is limited by the attribute's level (meaning a number of dice at the attribute's level, to be used a number of times equal to the attribute's level). Edge is still being finetuned.

The damage model is being reworked. Damage will be split into weapons- and armour damage.

The damage screen will remain, but maybe the number of boxes will change with characters who have extraordinarily high or low body.

Knowledge skills will remain as they are, and language and knowledge skills will become even more similar.

Drain rules will change, too, but how hasn't been announced yet.

Block 2: Background
The new Matrix will work on a wireless W-Lan and personal area networks based technology.

Commercials and personal data can (and will) be displayed into the field of view.

The BBB will detail more than one location instead of, as was the case in all previous editions, to allow for more campaign backgrounds.

Cyberware will cost less!

Block 3: Editorial stuff
A campaign book by FanPro Germany, which will cover the years between 2065 and 2070, is in the works. It's unclear when it will be released.

FanPro Germany and FanPro Us will work together closely.

The BBB will be released in a limited edition, and will be hardcover again (and, maybe, for the first time, the English BB will be, too).

Bug City will be translated inteo German and adapted to current rules (meaning SR4), and will be rleeased soon.

Prices for sourcebooks and background material will remain roughly the same.

There will be six new WizKids novels - a trilogy, whose first two volumes (Born to Run and Poison Agenda, by Steve Kenson) are out in Germany already (though not in the States) and three standalone novels.

There, that's about it.


Poison Agenda is the English name for the second Kenson novel. I took that, interestingly enough, from the German book's editorial information.
Yoan
QUOTE

Another (personal?) goal of Rob's is to make SR4 harsher and more gritty.


Judging from the cover art, all I have is...
rotfl.gif

That aside: thanks for posting this!
blakkie
QUOTE
The damage screen will remain, but maybe the number of boxes will change with characters who have extraordinarily high or low body.


Emphasis mine. This is new. Of course SR3 already did this on overdamage, but this maybe hints that even reaching Deadly is now variable? That also opens the issue of what wound penalties kick in where. It is also likely to drive an even bigger wedge between the two different meanings of Deadly damage, if the both even survive.

EDIT: Maybe it'll also make Body an even more "must have as much as possible" Attribute? frown.gif I know Body is always going to be important to the survival centered 'runner. But there are graduations, and i sure don't want to see Body as always the #1 obvious Attribute from a purely tactical evaluation. I'd settle for an obvious #2 or better, though i'd like to see it slip to sometimes #3 spot on obvious Attribute.

QUOTE
The BBB will detail more than one location instead of, as was the case in all previous editions, to allow for more campaign backgrounds.


This could be kinda cool. Seattle isn't so much the default anymore, acknowledging that the world fiction has grown enough that Seattle is nolonger the sole center of the SR universe.

QUOTE
Cyberware will cost less!


No more 1million nuyen.gif starting PCs then?

QUOTE
Bug City will be translated inteo German and adapted to current rules (meaning SR4), and will be rleeased soon.


This is only Germany centric i think, but that is curious that they'd translate past world events forward to SR4 rules. I always thought that a dicey difficult job given the Matrix/hacker rule changes that are tied to the timeline.

EDIT: Yeah, thanks for translating and posting. love.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (Yoan)
QUOTE

Another (personal?) goal of Rob's is to make SR4 harsher and more gritty.


Judging from the cover art, all I have is...
rotfl.gif

Hey, there are a lot of people that critiqued that picture as being "harsh", in various ways. grinbig.gif
Jrayjoker
QUOTE

The damage screen will remain, but maybe the number of boxes will change with characters who have extraordinarily high or low body.


Hmmmm, hit points. Me no like.
Eldritch
Heh, ten boxes + 1 box per point of Body? Same for stun then + 1 box per will point?

Hmmmmm

Yoan
QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
QUOTE

The damage screen will remain, but maybe the number of boxes will change with characters who have extraordinarily high or low body.


Hmmmm, hit points. Me no like.

Exactly what I thought as well. I know the game Exalted has this, but I'm not sure about other White Wolf games. I never really liked it...

At all.
frown.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (Jrayjoker @ Jun 29 2005, 08:02 AM)
QUOTE

The damage screen will remain, but maybe the number of boxes will change with characters who have extraordinarily high or low body.


Hmmmm, hit points. Me no like.

No, still damage boxes. Just not a fixed number of them. :^) Seriously though SR3 already does this partially in damage overflow. EDIT: Not saying i'd like it. Very hard to tell since it gave no details. But it does again underline how far they were willing to take apart the system to see what would work in SR4, whether or not varying number of damage boxes even got to the stage of playtesting.

Oh, something i missed:

QUOTE
The damage model is being reworked. Damage will be split into weapons- and armour damage.


I think maybe something got lost in translation here? (Not a dig at you hermit, once again thanks for the work.) Is this refering to the system no longer having weapon damage codes that are then influenced directly by the armour value?
Starglyte
I'm not really bright. What does BBB stand for?
blakkie
QUOTE (Starglyte @ Jun 29 2005, 08:19 AM)
I'm not really bright. What does BBB stand for?

Big Black Book, the core SR rules book. Welcome to DSF. Remember to keep your hands inside your post at all times as many of the paracritters here have a nasty habit of biting. eek.gif
Starglyte
Thanks for the shadow speak. Still trying to get the lingo down.
hermit
You're welcome, guys. Someone has to tell you, since FanPro themselves doesn't. smile.gif

About the German-centric parts: I didn'T want to edit the post. I realise they are propably of little importance to you guys, but ... well, I figure you'd like to know anyway. Especially the bridge-the-gap adventure could be interesting, if you could get FanPro USA to translate and publish it ... I guess many of you would like it, too.

QUOTE
Hmmmm, hit points. Me no like.

That's EXACTLY what I thought. And this angers me. The HP-lessness of SR was always something I really held dear. I'm not one of the rules fetishists, by far not, but this is seriously pushing my limits. Still in the "wait and see" camp, but that doesn't make me feel better about SR4. At all. frown.gif

QUOTE
I think maybe something got lost in translation here? (Not a dig at you hermit, once again thanks for the work.) Is this refering to the system no longer having weapon damage codes that are then influenced directly by the armour value?


Er ... I think not. The original text:
QUOTE
Das Schadensmodell wird ueberarbeitet. Schaden wird eingeteilt in Waffenschaden und Panzerungsschaden.


The most literal translation I can manage:
The damage model is being worked over/reviewed/changed. Damage is divided into weapons damage and armour damage.

It's more like it's generally cryptic. A less literal translation would be
QUOTE
Swordfish mustardball
blakkie
Damn Fanpro, always with the spicy seafood. nyahnyah.gif
Jrayjoker
LOL rotfl.gif rotfl.gif
hermit
Oh, one more thing:

QUOTE
The BBB will detail more than one location instead of [Seattle, my mistake, - hermit], as was the case in all previous editions, to allow for more campaign backgrounds.

I just hope that Germany is NOT one of these settings.
blakkie
QUOTE (hermit)
Oh, one more thing:

QUOTE
The BBB will detail more than one location instead of [Seattle, my mistake, - hermit], as was the case in all previous editions, to allow for more campaign backgrounds.

I just hope that Germany is NOT one of these settings.

I didn't think about that angle. Now that you mention it that might be a Fanpro Germany thing, where during localizing the German BBB they add fluff for that area. The new German SR4 BBB, now with German SB goodness injected directly into every customers orfice of choice. indifferent.gif
Penta
It probably will be, Hermit.

QUOTE
Before SR4 is out, "Shadowrun: die 6. Welt", a book in novel format that offers background about Shadowrun's editorial background, short stories and interviews with the game's makers.


I WANT THIS BOOK IN ENGLISH! GAHHHH!
DrJest
QUOTE
The damage screen will remain, but maybe the number of boxes will change with characters who have extraordinarily high or low body.


<scratches head>

This could be similar to the NWoD way of handling it, where instead of a standard 7 health boxes (as per previous editions) you have a total based off of stamina plus something else that escapes me right now. It raises my "suspicious bastard" hackles because I'm still thinking in SR1-3 terms of weapon damage, and am not sure how it would apply. Since weapon damage is changing as well, however, my previous experience is likely to be inapplicable anyway.
Skarn Ka
Do what I did. Learn German. wink.gif
hermit
Well, maybe, just maybe, they won't drop into that trap. I sure hope so. Everyone I have played shadowrun with liked that part of the rules.

I refuse to judge until August. smile.gif

QUOTE
Outbound to: Kashmir, India

I just noticed that! Hey, weren't you Israeli? Anyway, take care when going there. Breathtaking landscape ... but dangerous. smile.gif
blakkie
What are other possible interpretations of the German to English for "damage screen"? Is this maybe a specific term from the SR3 German rules? After all it is "staying", so it is something that is in SR3. A "screen" being something that is obscuring could this be a reference to wound penalties.

So the point at which the penalties kick in varies, not the boxes of damage before you are totally incompasitated?

EDIT: Or a "screen" could also be a shield of some sort? So this is something to do with shielding damage in some way? That doesn't really jive with a change from SR3 since high body-low body was always an influence there, and this is talking about only the extremes making a difference...maybe.
hermit
QUOTE
What are other possible interpretations of the German to English for "damage screen"?

"Schadensmonitor" specifically refers to the ten-box thingie that we hate to cross out boxes on, because it means our character is hurt. No other possibility. It's technical term.
Nerbert
The biggest and most important differences between hitpoints and the damage screen is that hit points increase boundlessly. Additionally, they have no damage modifiers, there's no difference in your performance even if you're almost dead.

What this new system suggests is that damage is no longer soaked. I find it highly doubtful that one high Karma person in SR4 will be equivilent to nine or ten normal people.
blakkie
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 29 2005, 11:40 AM)
QUOTE
What are other possible interpretations of the German to English for "damage screen"?

"Schadensmonitor" specifically refers to the ten-box thingie that we hate to cross out boxes on, because it means our character is hurt. No other possibility. It's technical term.

So it is the equivalent to "Condition Monitor" in English, which is the proper term for those dual 10 boxes plus overflow. The overflow limit was already set at the Body of character. Hope they are just talking about that, or that it gets shot down in playtesting. *sigh*

EDIT: Just noticed Schadens is damage, right? Compounded with "monitor". So it is a partially anglisized word? (although "monitor" is used inside a few other words i've found, i'm pretty sure English didn't pick it up from German).

P.S. Although i might be able to live with extremely robust creatures, like a dragon, having it doubled up at 20 boxes or something. Effectively you damage them 1/2 boxes at a time. That would allow a granularity to those beasts, and things like naval vessels, that they never had. You always had to walk a very fine line to allow a threat of damage to them, but not let them get wacked with a couple lucky shots.
Nikoli
If it is German centric, scratch one player.
hermit
QUOTE
So it is the equivalent to "Condition Monitor" in English, which is the proper term for those dual 10 boxes plus overflow. The overflow limit was already set at the Body of character. Hope they are just talking about that, or that it gets shot down in playtesting. *sigh*

Maybe they kick overflow and just integrate it into the condition monitor? That way, say, a base 5-point damage screen (body 1) could be ten only for a body 10 troll (add half body to condition monitor) - and I'd assuime that, with scaled dopwn attributes, trolls wouldn't get more than 4 body bonus points for race. That could be expanded to dragons with Loffy (body 40) getting a whooping 25 damage monitor "HP". There wouldn't be boundless ADD-ish HP like that though, since maxed-out sams would only be 5+3=8 condition monitor boxes. And without overflow, D damage would be just that, DEAD.

Maybe they werre inspired by CP2020 with it's multiple "mortal wounds" kinda system? Been a while since I played it btw, so I may remember that wrongly. If Rob is really gonna make SR more lethal, that woudl certainly do that.
blakkie
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 29 2005, 12:24 PM)
Maybe they werre inspired by CP2020 with it's multiple "mortal wounds" kinda system? Been a while since I played it btw, so I may remember that wrongly. If Rob is really gonna make SR more lethal, that woudl certainly do that.

Way more lethal. Overflow certainly saved many a 'runner over the years. Especially Trolls since it was unaugmented Body, so tricked out Human sammies need not apply for 15 overflow.

But it does mention that it is the extremes, not just a smooth scaling. Whatever those extremes are i guess.
Wireknight
The real problem with a variable condition monitor length (versus simple overflow) is that, with an only-extended system for wound modifiers, a character with Body 1 might end up suffering only -3 to their dice pools before they reach the "incapacitated" state, while a character with Body 6 might end up suffering -5 to their dicepools. The solution to this would involve a pretty complex (at least, complex enough to make people leery) function for calculating the box-lengths of each wound category.

Otherwise, while they'll be able to take more damage, higher body characters will suffer essentially greater incapacitation at the same relative level of injury (their relative Serious injury level perhaps being 8 or 9 boxes) as lower body characters (whose relative Serious injury level may be 5 or 6).
Connor
QUOTE (Wireknight)
The real problem with a variable condition monitor length (versus simple overflow) is that, with an only-extended system for wound modifiers,  a character with Body 1 might end up suffering only -3 to their dice pools before they reach the "incapacitated" state, while a character with Body 6 might end up suffering -5 to their dicepools.  The solution to this would involve a pretty complex (at least, complex enough to make people leery) function for calculating the box-lengths of each wound category.

Otherwise, while they'll be able to take more damage, higher body characters will suffer essentially greater incapacitation at the same relative level of injury (their relative Serious injury level perhaps being 8 or 9 boxes) as lower body characters (whose relative Serious injury level may be 5 or 6).

I would think you could go the other way. So the full 10 box Condition Monitor is as it is, but someone with say, 5 boxes, has the last 5 boxes. This way, they'd actually take more serious penalties quicker. Which would fit with them being weaker and less able to take damage.
Hell Hound
I can't say I'm an immediate fan of the variable condition monitor idea, but the concept of does have some merit. A character with a high body should be able to take more damage and keep going, not necessarily be unscathed but still conscious and at least semi-functional. So the idea of higher body characters racking up more wound penalties might work, they're not taking less damage from a hit they're just doing a better job of enduring their injuries, remaining conscious when the pain would have dropped someone with a lower body rating. Of course it doesn't do away with the 'Body, the new gotta have attribute!' problem, especially if damage resistance tests are still able to reduce a successfull hit to no damage.
Ellery
An advantage of variable condition monitors is that, if you figure out how to assign penalties properly, you can have some chance of having a game which handles chihuahuas, humans, and rhinocerai reasonably well. It's hard to believe that you'd take three rifle shots to kill a chihuahua, and you could probably put quite a few poorly aimed shots into a rhino before it went down. The rhino end can be served by high armor and body, I suppose, but the low end doesn't work too well with a 10-box condition monitor.

The disadvantage of variable condition monitors comes when you try to assign wound penalties, though, and I don't see a good way to fix that. If damage levels are kept, and the progression is continued (L=1-2 boxes, M=3-5, S=6-9, C=10-14, ..., where C is Critical), then you'd probably keep the worst penalty level between -3 and -5 dice (15-20), which might be okay. On the other hand, it's hard enough to remember three damage levels, let alone an arbitrary number. I'm not sure this fits the streamlining goal.

You might be better served by leaving condition monitors alone increasing damage levels for chihuahuas by one step, if you still have damage levels.

If there aren't damage levels, just numbers of boxes of damage taken, then neither fix works.
Cheops
hmmm...less emphasis on Seattle...as a resident of the "pacific northwest" that kicks my selfishness feelings into overdrive...lol

this translation does little to allay my fears about the new edition except that there is to be an emphasis on grittiness...me likee
Cain
This is sounding suspiciously more and more like Mechwarrior 2nd ed. They had variable damage boxes, and Edge as a luck factor, too. It also had a stepped point-buy system for skills, which made chargen a tedious, time consuming affair.

Mechwarrior 2E was a nightmare to run. The book had one of the worst layouts of any FASA product, and that's saying something! The system only had one strength, which was that it could be easily adapted to work with Batttletech-- and even that took a fair amount of work and jury-rigging.

Mechwarrior 2E wanted to be Shadowrun so badly, you could feel it. They tried introducing legality codes, the Master Character Creation Table (as well as the Sum-to-Ten option!) etc. It's sad to see Shadwrun becoming its own weak sister.
Namergon
Note: as a playtester I can't actually say more than is officially stated. I can only help people avoid over-extrapolation/inference and false assumptions.

QUOTE
The damage model is being reworked. Damage will be split into weapons- and armour damage.


That would mean basically that weapons/amnos have a basic damage potency (be the target armored or not) but that the developers took into account that they don't have the same efficiency regarding armor.

QUOTE
The damage screen will remain, but maybe the number of boxes will change with characters who have extraordinarily high or low body.


Damage screen here is most probably the Condition Monitor here.
False assumption I saw: there are no mention anywhere that Damage Level is a concept kept in SR4 (no mention of the contrary either, I'll admit). So be careful with theories.
This quoted information basically means that the number of boxes in Condition Monitors are not a fixed (10) number anymore, but rather is influenced by an appropriate attribute, at least if this attribute has an non-average value.
hobgoblin
QUOTE

Riggers and deckers are integrated and there will be more emphasis put on integrating these characters into the game. The reason for this is riggers and deckers using similar hardware, but implement it differently (compare drones and programs, especially the remote control program).


sounds interesting, will we see that a robotic drone is nothing more then a drone with a agent (not agent smith tho wink.gif ) as brain? looking forward to reading about this as it may well become a nice system, or a complete mess silly.gif

QUOTE

Magic is supposed to be a "buyable attribute" at chargen. This means you first purchase an Edge (magical talent) [ger. Vorteil, not sure if they really mean an Edge, - hermit -] and then invest building points into buying a magic attribute. How this attribute is suposed to be raised further ingame, especially with "I bought magical talent and instead of buying magic I bought me cyberware for two essence points" is still being finetuned, but it's being considered. Essence doesn't change.


and a lot of tuning it may well need. still, it will allow for people to start out with the potential for magic and then develop it ingame as a story tool wink.gif while im not german the norwegian language share some similaritys. i would translate that word as advantage, atleast it sounds somewhat similar to the word norwegian word for advantage if i got the sound of it right. im guessing that edges and flaws may become a part of the BBB this time round. but then this was somewhat happening even pre-d20 to help flesh out the character with thing that where neither skill nor gear.

QUOTE

You can add edge dice to your tests, based on the attribute's level. Only when this is done, may sixes be rolled again. Every additional 5 rolled then is counted as another success [hit? - hermit -] (this applies to the complete test). The use of edge also is limited by the attribute's level (meaning a number of dice at the attribute's level, to be used a number of times equal to the attribute's level). Edge is still being finetuned.


looks like exploding dice is still in, but only if you pull out all the stops and trow in a bit of edge. the problem with the text tho is that they are not realy saying what attribute that limits the number of edge dice that you can use in a single test. im guessing that you can apply as many edge dice in a test as the smallest of the edge attribute or the attribute thats added to the skill when doing a test (similar to how combat dice used cant go above the number of skill dice in SR3). so that if say you have 6 edge, 3 dexterity and 6 pistol then you can only add up to 3 edge dice to that test as you cant add more then the attribute part of the test. makes sense in a way.

another big problem is if all dice become explosive the moment you add atleast 1 edge dice. if so then the fear i have seen expressed here on the forum about some tasks becoming impossible is atleast somewhat quieted. just add a bit of edge and you can maybe go all the way wink.gif still, you cant rely in it the same way as you can in SR3 as you dont know if the edge dice may be more required around the corner. ie, sooner or later you edge (and therfor you luck) will run out silly.gif vegm.gif

allso, i wonder what the refresh rate for the number of uses of edge will be given that its limited to a number of uses equal to the value of the edge attribute. will it be per session? i allways found things that refresh per session kinda silly as its then connected to a out of game element.
hermit
QUOTE
It also had a stepped point-buy system for skills, which made chargen a tedious, time consuming affair.

Unlike today. nyahnyah.gif I mean, it took only two consecutive afternoons of rules looking-up and checking various different books for gear and whatnot, calculating, recapturing the numbers, finding the errors, and so on, to create a new character for a friend looking to join. Right, today, it's easy.

Or were you saying it was even worse?

QUOTE
That would mean basically that weapons/amnos have a basic damage potency (be the target armored or not) but that the developers took into account that they don't have the same efficiency regarding armor.

Did I understand this right? We get the SR1 damage code system back?
hermit
Fuck. Sorry. frown.gif
mmu1
QUOTE (Namergon)
False assumption I saw: there are no mention anywhere that Damage Level is a concept kept in SR4 (no mention of the contrary either, I'll admit). So be careful with theories.
This quoted information basically means that the number of boxes in Condition Monitors are not a fixed (10) number anymore, but rather is influenced by an appropriate attribute, at least if this attribute has an non-average value.

So... No damage levels. Does it follow, then, that there will be no wound levels? They'd be tricky to implement with a variable-size Condition Monitor anyway...

hermit
Hmmm ... so how will it be determined how much damage a weapon does, then? Will there still be soaking? Damn, they really ought to have left that system alone ...
Jrayjoker
Or not mentioned it yet. We shouldn't go all "rampant speculationist" on it. Not yet anyway. Let them give us more rope first...
Namergon
QUOTE (hermit)
Did I understand this right? We get the SR1 damage code system back?

eek.gif rotfl.gif
Cain
QUOTE
Or were you saying it was even worse?

It was even worse. In Mechwarrior, not only did you need to calculate gear (the most tedious part of Shadowrun chargen) you had to calculate stepped-costs for skill points, which took even longer. Plus the fact that you had to calculate and develop and design your Mechs. By the time you got done, a million-nuyen street sam looked easy.

The variable damage boxes thing never really worked for Mechwarrior. I'm not happy at all to see it resurrected. I thought that people would have learned from past mistakes, instead of repeating them.
Catsnightmare
QUOTE
Ther will be a fixed TN of 5 (fixed means it never changes, smartasses). Instead of leveling TV, difficulty is managed using a success threshold, which can be modified by surroundings, wounds and other fun stuff. Also, the number of dice rolled can be modified (dice added/removed) in certain circumstances (by cyberware, extremely difficult tasks, and such things).


They call this shit streamlining? Now you have to calculate 2 sets of situation-based variables per dice roll, both threshold and number of dice rolled. This vs. just figureing target number in SR3.

hermit
Before, you had both TN and threshold to calculate. Also, you had to take pools that apply into account, which fall flat under the current system. It's not streamlined much, but it IS streamlined.
Critias
Before, you had to think, and do math. Now that the thinking part is gone, it's just half the work !!
Shadow
QUOTE (Cheops)
hmmm...less emphasis on Seattle...as a resident of the "pacific northwest" that kicks my selfishness feelings into overdrive...lol

this translation does little to allay my fears about the new edition except that there is to be an emphasis on grittiness...me likee

I know this is an international community and in the last few year there has been an emphasis on the Shadows-of-the-rest-of-the-world, but to me Seattle was NPC all its own. It is sad to see it no longer be the main location of the books.
DrJest
QUOTE
I know this is an international community and in the last few year there has been an emphasis on the Shadows-of-the-rest-of-the-world, but to me Seattle was NPC all its own. It is sad to see it no longer be the main location of the books.


I know what you mean. Seattle was kind of like the playpen where the runners grew up before moving out into the wide world. Even today, with God knows how many alternate locations done up, it's still almost the core setting for Shadowrun. I think I'd be quite upset about it losing that position.
mfb
threshold almost never came into play in SR3, unless you looked at very specific situations (eg, dealing M damage with an L weapon has a threshold of 2). only certain spells and Matrix actions brought threshold into play. so i don't think it's quite accurate to say that because SR4 has number of dice and thresholds, it's more streamlined than SR3's variable TNs and thresholds. SR3 had far fewer thresholds.
blakkie
QUOTE (mfb)
threshold almost never came into play in SR3, unless you looked at very specific situations (eg, dealing M damage with an L weapon has a threshold of 2). only certain spells and Matrix actions brought threshold into play. so i don't think it's quite accurate to say that because SR4 has number of dice and thresholds, it's more streamlined than SR3's variable TNs and thresholds. SR3 had far fewer thresholds.

Ya, SR3 only had threshholds scattered around in some places. Like the ones you mention, plus i think there were a few in R3 and of course various levels of Assensing and some Perception checks too i think? Also just simple Opposed rolls were a variation on it, although there the threshhold is set by the opposition.

Unfortunately the places where SR3 used them was usually for good reason, without them the single success odds got way too easy. So in the proccess of creating a uniform die mechanism you'd end up having to deal with them anyway. *shrug*
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