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weblife
Lets hope its not too bad... frown.gif

They count 6 explosions so far.
toturi
Not exactly an SR topic, you know?
weblife
Well.. No.. But 9/11 is mentioned in here all the time, so I figured it'd be alright to discuss it.

Sorry.
Tziluthi
Ah yes, but for the general discussion forum. Strange that SubRosa departed soon after that forum closed. biggrin.gif
hermit
QUOTE
But 9/11 is mentioned in here all the time, so I figured it'd be alright to discuss it.

Usually followed by a lot of people saying "don't bring that up again, it only stirs up shit and that stinks!"
JongWK
Any Dumpshocker from/in London?

JongWK

"We're all London today"
toturi
The thing is... London, like most other west European cities, was the battleground for terrorism in the 1970-80s. Remember the Iranian Embassy Hostage situation?

The impact of New York was in its unprecedented magnitude in loss of life as well as the psychological impact where North America was previously never hit by foreign terrorism.

London, having been through terrorist attacks before (IRA and such), is in a good position to weather this attack. Well, today, the Battle of Britain has started. But we know who will win.
nezumi
I'm with weblife and Jong. I think today warrants an exception to the rule. And yeah, the UK has dealt with terrorists before. I think I know how this is going to end, and really, this only makes me all the happier that we invaded Iraq.
hermit
<retracted>

I mourn for the 33 dead so far. frown.gif
Starglyte
Please leave the political discussions aside for now. The victims in London is what matters at this moment.
Kagetenshi
<Redacted>

~J
ShadowDragon8685
What's happening?
hermit
33 dead, around 300 injured, lots of people stranded in mid-London. Four bombs, three in the underground and one in a bus.

Also, that egyptean diplomat is dead, and the polish governemnt seat is burning because fo a short fuse.
hobgoblin
*BOOM*x6, thats whats happening...

hmm, kinda makes me think of something a policlub could pull of this...
hermit
Now it's six?
hobgoblin
atleast. i have stopped paying attention for some reason...
ShadowDragon8685
CNN's only up to the three in the tube and one on the bus. Where can I get up to the minute coverage?... Well duh, the TV...
hermit
British cops and BBC say it's four ...
Kagetenshi
Official count is still three on the underground and one on the bus. There are reports of explosions heard at more than those three tube stations, but it is looking like those may just be people hearing the explosions at other stations or on trains between stations.

~J
hobgoblin
ok then, looks like i may have been a bit outdated...

make that *BOOM*x4 then...
Ray Becker
Dang, it wasn't that long ago that I was getting the train to kings cross on a daily basis.
Arethusa
Initial reports of explosions were higher because multiple stations reported explosions (eg the station one of the trains just left, one it was passing, etc).
Zen Shooter01
My sympathy to Our British Cousins.

But this reminds me of 9/11 as a lesson in how stupid terrorists are. They knock a little hole in the Pentagon, and think that a superpower's ability to make war, fashioned to survive a massive exchange of nuclear weapons, will be damaged? They knock down a few buildings, like we won't rebuild them taller and stronger and more glorious?

They kill a handful of commuters in the city that would not fall to the Blitz, and they think they've won a victory?

They know nothing.
Pthgar
They seem to have forgotton how Britain reacted to the bombs of WWII.

I also think it's telling that with all of their "Prime Targets" up in Scotland, the terrorists decide to blow up some poor people going about their business. There wasn't even an attempt to attack a hard target. Evidence that these terrorists aren't mad at us because of our leaders, but because of what we represent. They would kill me or you in a second even if you told them you voted for the other guy.

Prayers and thoughts with all of you in London and Britain.
Kagetenshi
That's some extremely questionable logic in the last two posts.

~J
JaronK
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
But this reminds me of 9/11 as a lesson in how stupid terrorists are. They knock a little hole in the Pentagon, and think that a superpower's ability to make war, fashioned to survive a massive exchange of nuclear weapons, will be damaged? They knock down a few buildings, like we won't rebuild them taller and stronger and more glorious?

They kill a handful of commuters in the city that would not fall to the Blitz, and they think they've won a victory?

They know nothing.

Well, remember we're dealing with a guy who was trained to take on the Soviet Union (by the Americans... we can look back now and say that was pretty dumb of us, but that's 20/20 hindsight and at the time it was a good plan). Basically, the goal is to piss off the superpower into blowing its resources fighting against invisible targets that it can't hit. It worked great in Afganistan against the Soviets during that war, and was a major cause of the bankruptcy that caused that nation to fall apart, and it's working now too.

Frankly, I think the reason they keep hitting civilian targets is precisely because they want people pissed off... they want this war to escalate, and don't care for the civilian casualties that will mount on both sides.

It's an effective way to fight a superpower, but it means a lot of deaths for people who aren't involved and who are totally innocent of the crimes that Al-Queda and the like hate us for. It's like murdering a child to piss off the parents.

My condolences to all those wounded or killed in this attack, and to those who knew them. These people kill without caring about the consequences for those who only wanted to live their lives in peace.

JaronK
sanctusmortis
As a Brit, I can honestly say it's not really that big a thing over here. We're used to the IRA in the 90's now; desensitized to attacks of this nature. 37 dead apparently, 6 tube stations and a bus bomb.

A drop in the ocean compared to, say, Omagh.
Bigity
Well, by nature, terrorist attacks are indiscriminate, so it's very logical to assume that they don't care who is killed. Liberals use the buses and subways just as much as conservatives.
ShadowDragon8685
Does anyone wish, just for a few seconds, that we could get Dystopian on their asses, start doing whole villiages where we find them, dropping FAEs like candy and such?

I mean, yes, it's reprehensible and wrong. But does anyone else just wish we could turn the fraggers into a plate-glass desert?
Cynic project
As much as I want goose stepping foot soldiers at every corner. Wile we are at, who needs civil liberties? If you have donething wrong you got nothing to fear.

We sink to their level and they win. That is the only way they can win.
ShadowDragon8685
As opposed to now, where you can have done nothing wrong and have everything to fear?

I dunno...
hermit
Dear Americans. Get used to it. It's the way it is. Any major European country has seen such attacks before. Idiots blowing up bombs is nothing original here. Just get on with your lives! The chances of being blown to bits (or crippled) by such a bomb is very low indeed. Everything to fear? Hell, life is risk and always ends fatally.

You can either panic, curl up, cry for drastic measures that give you a fake sense of security and live under tinfoil hats in a bunker for the rest of your life, or you can just get fucking over it, give the terrorists the finger and refuse to give in to them!

They want you to cower in fear before their awesome might of being able to blow up a couple of innocent people. You cry, they win. You laugh, they lose.
JaronK
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
Does anyone wish, just for a few seconds, that we could get Dystopian on their asses, start doing whole villiages where we find them, dropping FAEs like candy and such?

I mean, yes, it's reprehensible and wrong. But does anyone else just wish we could turn the fraggers into a plate-glass desert?

Then you'd be doing them a favor. You'd hit innocent villagers, just like they have done to Brittain today. The survivors and the families of the dead would join up. Also, you'd have spent billions of dollars on troops and planes and explosives, thereby weakening your economy, while the perpetrators have likely spent a thousand dollars if that (Bin Laden actually bragged that he was spending one dollar for every million the US spent in retaliation... considering his role in the fall of the Soviet Union, that means something).

To answer your second part... yes. Yes a lot of us wish we could blow the hell out of them and everyone around them to get our revenge. But going by that gut reaction won't help at all and will cause a heck of a lot of harm. The actions of nations cannot be motivated by vengence.

Frankly, the "give the terrorists the finger and refuse to give in to them" tactic, while crude, is a lot closer to what would help. But that's hard to see when you've lost love ones.

So again, the only thing to do right now is mourn for the dead, console those who have lost love ones or been injured, and leave it to cooler heads to decide what to do.
hermit
Well, ignoring them alone won't help, to make things clear. We need action by our governments - a wide alliance, not a single egomaniac president, mind you. And we need to trace the terrorists down, like European terrorists were traced and eventually found and neutralised. Carlos was caught eventually. We need patience, faith in our judical systems as they are, and we must not give in to panic and take measures like, sadly, the US have already taken, measures which tear apart the very freedom the government there brags to be defending.

But a good first step is just not giving in to panic. It's an important step, without which none of the others can be taken.
Aku
the problem with saying the war in iraq is a "sad meassure" is that, for the most part, the european nations are used to internal, or near by attackers (the IRA for instance) in case of al queda, we're looking at an entity that is based a long ways away from where the attacks was carried out. In the time it takes me to cross from one end of my state to the other, i could go through atleast a few european countries. its easier to chase perps in that small of an area.
Smiley
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Jul 7 2005, 05:24 PM)
As much as I want goose stepping foot soldiers at every corner. Wile we are at, who needs civil liberties? If you have donething wrong you got nothing to fear.

That's a bit extreme, isn't it?
I see no foot soldiers and the CIA is hardly in your living room.
Dice
QUOTE (Aku)
In the time it takes me to cross from one end of my state to the other, i could go through atleast a few european countries. its easier to chase perps in that small of an area.

In many ways its harder. Different jurisdictions and law codes, different languages, different political situations, different ethnic groups with different sympathies.

Imagine if the Canadian or Mexican border were within a few hours drive from any point in the USA. How easy would it be to chase perps then, as you so quaintly put it...
JaronK
Considering some of the recent actions of the US government (see: Patriot Act), that's not very extreame at all. The Geneva Convention has been all but thrown out, the FBI can do things now that would have caused mass demonstrations before 9/11, and there's been lots of other rather scary bits occuring.

Supercilious
The theory of indescriminate revenge is kinda cool, though. Yeah I would rather have my civil liberties and deal with terrorism the way we do; but I would be satisfied on a very deep emotional level if we sent out soldiers with the mission parameters limited to "kill everyone from X to Y."
ShadowDragon8685
Indescriminate justice, while morally reprehensible, does kind of satisfy that really mean part of you.

Thankfully, most of us are content to just entertain such notions, and go back to doing things the good way.
hobgoblin
well as long as noone starts vanishing from the face of the earth in the middle of the night for no other reason then speaking up against the establishment then we have still a bit to go...
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (JaronK)
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jul 7 2005, 05:13 PM)
Does anyone wish, just for a few seconds, that we could get Dystopian on their asses, start doing whole villiages where we find them, dropping FAEs like candy and such?

I mean, yes, it's reprehensible and wrong. But does anyone else just wish we could turn the fraggers into a plate-glass desert?

Then you'd be doing them a favor.

Hardly. Any problem can be solved through judicious application of sufficient violence. Provided that you make some preparations beforehand and have the ability and a complete lack of concern for the continued existence of the species, it is indeed viable to solve all problems via bombing essentially everyone else out of existence.

There are a number of reasons why this isn't done, but practicality isn't really one of them.

~J
Smiley
QUOTE (JaronK)
Considering some of the recent actions of the US government (see: Patriot Act), that's not very extreame at all. The Geneva Convention has been all but thrown out, the FBI can do things now that would have caused mass demonstrations before 9/11, and there's been lots of other rather scary bits occuring.

Examples?
toturi
QUOTE (sanctusmortis)
As a Brit, I can honestly say it's not really that big a thing over here. We're used to the IRA in the 90's now; desensitized to attacks of this nature. 37 dead apparently, 6 tube stations and a bus bomb.

A drop in the ocean compared to, say, Omagh.

I agree. Attacking Britain or London doesn't achieve anything. A terrorist attack is supposed to spread terror. The worst thing for Al Qaeda(if it is proven to be their handiwork) happened, some people died, but now the security services in Britain have gone through a live field test and (I think) have not been found wanting. Add that to the "Meh?" reaction from the British public, this is not a victory, this is a defeat for terror.
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (sanctusmortis @ Jul 8 2005, 05:09 AM)
As a Brit, I can honestly say it's not really that big a thing over here. We're used to the IRA in the 90's now; desensitized to attacks of this nature. 37 dead apparently, 6 tube stations and a bus bomb.

A drop in the ocean compared to, say, Omagh.

I agree. Attacking Britain or London doesn't achieve anything. A terrorist attack is supposed to spread terror. The worst thing for Al Qaeda(if it is proven to be their handiwork) happened, some people died, but now the security services in Britain have gone through a live field test and (I think) have not been found wanting. Add that to the "Meh?" reaction from the British public, this is not a victory, this is a defeat for terror.

This is very true, we have not been found wanting. Though there are exceptions, the response of the public is pretty much as you said. Meh. Nothing new at all.

The thing i am conserned about is boozed up thugs seeing a middle eastern and kicking ten tons of shite out of them. The middle eastern's know it as well. When i walked to town today through the estate, not a single middle eastern in sight, and i usually see a couple of kids playing or couple of middle aged men chatting. Not one to be seen.
Capt. Dave
QUOTE (hermit)

You can either panic, curl up, cry for drastic measures that give you a fake sense of security and live under tinfoil hats in a bunker for the rest of your life, or you can just get fucking over it, give the terrorists the finger and refuse to give in to them!

They want you to cower in fear before their awesome might of being able to blow up a couple of innocent people. You cry, they win. You laugh, they lose.

Since America didn't give in to terrorist attacks, and Spain, a European country, did, this whole rant seems a little hypocritical. Maybe we're a little worried about Europe's resolve, as it hasn't been very stable, with the noted exception of Britain, of course. Maybe we're afraid we'll have to bail Europe out again.
ShadowDragon8685
Why is it always only Britain and America that ever do the hard work?

Y'know, I think we should just BACK off, and wait about fifty years.

See if we have to send our people over to exterminate a pesky hostile occupation force problem for France again...
toturi
QUOTE (Capt. Dave)
Since America didn't give in to terrorist attacks, and Spain, a European country, did, this whole rant seems a little hypocritical. Maybe we're a little worried about Europe's resolve, as it hasn't been very stable, with the noted exception of Britain, of course. Maybe we're afraid we'll have to bail Europe out again.

And you know what is tragic? Spain is the country where the Spanish Inquisition came out from, never thought they would be the ones to fold. Evidently they don't make Spaniards like they used to.
Cynic project
QUOTE (Smiley)
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Jul 7 2005, 05:24 PM)
As much as I want goose stepping foot soldiers at every corner. Wile we are at, who needs civil ? If you have donething wrong you got nothing to fear.

That's a bit extreme, isn't it?
I see no foot soldiers and the CIA is hardly in your living room.

Yes, but no more than saying we should nuke them back to the stone age. I was not saying that was how life is, I was pointing out that mass bombing on people is just stupid. Just like having the army work as a police force or revoking civil liberties.
weblife
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (JaronK @ Jul 7 2005, 06:05 PM)
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jul 7 2005, 05:13 PM)
Does anyone wish, just for a few seconds, that we could get Dystopian on their asses, start doing whole villiages where we find them, dropping FAEs like candy and such?

I mean, yes, it's reprehensible and wrong. But does anyone else just wish we could turn the fraggers into a plate-glass desert?

Then you'd be doing them a favor.

Hardly. Any problem can be solved through judicious application of sufficient violence. Provided that you make some preparations beforehand and have the ability and a complete lack of concern for the continued existence of the species, it is indeed viable to solve all problems via bombing essentially everyone else out of existence.

There are a number of reasons why this isn't done, but practicality isn't really one of them.

~J

Did you consider for a second, that, what you describe is exactly the tactic the terrorists use?
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