I know BeCKS has been around for awhile, but I never much bothered with it. However, I finally sat down and played around with it...I found I'm loving BeCKS v2. It seems balanced, streamlined, and while it seems it can take awhile, I am really liking where it's going.
I converted a few character, and found they converted just fine...it didn't favor magical/non magical, or human/metahuman, or anything. It has the resource advantage over the priority system(where you are stuck with the million, 400 grand, or 90 grand, no inbetween), and it doesn't have the huge favor of 'mundane human' over magicians/and or metahumans the point based system seems to have., and it nips the 'contacts bought with nuyen' in the bud, as well as has more flexibility for spell points., of course at a trade off with everything else.(more SP-less of something else.)
Is there anything i need to look out for, though, to the folks who have played with it? I have used the search and couldn't find any of the old BeCKS threads I thought i saw before.
One thing I like is that when I was converting the characters, I found myself dropping a few skills a couple points, and opting for the more balanced spread...I like that, it seems to discourage what i like to calll 'PHD syndrome', where chracters who take the high skill priorities/points have a ton of 6's, and it encourages a more balanced approach. (i can believe 6 or 7 rating 4 skills more than i can believe even 4 rating 6 skills, personally.)
It seems really balanced on the getgo, and in the chars I created/converted(I used the standard 425 karma, which seems to be a good starting karma, like when it converted the archetypes), and since there is no change how chars develop(they still use karma), is there anything really unbalanced about it in the long run? Figure i'd ask some folks who have played with it before I go and make a huge switch.
Full Version: BeCKS...
I tested BECKS than I hinted at a "Mage Mage hurray" player that I might use it. The player did the "Pawlows dog impression" so the thing must favor mages a lot!
Basically I prefer either Point based or Sum-to-10 over BECKS. I might take BECKS if! it's Priority or BECKS.
BECKS favors a wide base skill-specialisation spread as well as "universall genius" / JoaT (Jack of all Trades) characters. Since a few "hyperactiv" JoaT's (or CanAlls) can ruin game for more silent players (and I had a few to many CanAlls, including the above example) I have a strong dislike for BECKS.
Birdy
Basically I prefer either Point based or Sum-to-10 over BECKS. I might take BECKS if! it's Priority or BECKS.
BECKS favors a wide base skill-specialisation spread as well as "universall genius" / JoaT (Jack of all Trades) characters. Since a few "hyperactiv" JoaT's (or CanAlls) can ruin game for more silent players (and I had a few to many CanAlls, including the above example) I have a strong dislike for BECKS.
Birdy
Hmmm. I can see a point there. I dunno, I guess YMMV, but we always liked the 'broader skills at lower ratings' kinda thing. Then again, nothing stops players from having the small handful of PHD skills with BeCKS either.
But i can see maybe after running games with tons of people who have buttloads of rating 3-4 skills, why you feel that way.
Hmm..but then again the broad skill base, can be again, a bit more realistic.
I created a couple mages(well, converted) with BeCKS....I didn't see much favor...yet...but perhaps I didn't try to break it enough, and a munchy person might find something i didn't.
But i can see maybe after running games with tons of people who have buttloads of rating 3-4 skills, why you feel that way.
Hmm..but then again the broad skill base, can be again, a bit more realistic.
I created a couple mages(well, converted) with BeCKS....I didn't see much favor...yet...but perhaps I didn't try to break it enough, and a munchy person might find something i didn't.
I find that BECKS requires me to spread the points a lot more thinly than I really want to, and forces (well, strongly encourages, anyway) the creation of characters that are less competent than I think non street-level runners should be. I much prefer point-buy.
The chargen method, for me anyway, depends on the character being created. Using NSRCG, I simply create the same character using each of the available methods, and select the method that best benefits that character.
BecKs can sometimes be the way to go, especially since one can buy spell points with Karma at a 1:1 ratio. Then one can sell these for
25,000 apiece,
which is a much better return than purchasing resources with said Karma.
One simply has to know how to "work" each system to get the maximum benefit.
BecKs can sometimes be the way to go, especially since one can buy spell points with Karma at a 1:1 ratio. Then one can sell these for
25,000 apiece, which is a much better return than purchasing resources with said Karma.
One simply has to know how to "work" each system to get the maximum benefit.
| QUOTE (Capt. Dave) |
| The chargen method, for me anyway, depends on the character being created. Using NSRCG, I simply create the same character using each of the available methods, and select the method that best benefits that character. BecKs can sometimes be the way to go, especially since one can buy spell points with Karma at a 1:1 ratio. Then one can sell these for 25,000 apiece, which is a much better return than purchasing resources with said Karma. One simply has to know how to "work" each system to get the maximum benefit. |
I wonder if Pietr ( www.userfriendly.org ) would borrow me that satellite he has been accessing recently. And the coordinates of Capt. Daves house.
Sorry Capt. but that is exactly the type of player I (and quite a few GM I know) have a "Dead or alive (1 Pizza alive, 3 dead)" type of bounty out for - the MinMaxer.
Birdy
"Aiming the Thorshot at MinMaxers since 1987"
That's nothing. The real benefit is playing an Otaku and taking the lowest point-build Resources level (¥500, normally). Otaku's rules state that they always have ¥5,000 in Resources, so you trade your ability to buy a higher tribe Lifestyle for five extra build points.
~J
~J
That ain't just a min/maxer trait, it's a definite sign of munchkinism: using rules in ways they were absolutely not meant to be used, breaking and twisting the system to provide the maximum advantage for the character, is far worse than run-of-the-mill min/maxing.
I'm wondering about this bit, though:
I'm wondering about this bit, though:
| QUOTE (Capt. Dave) |
| BecKs can sometimes be the way to go, especially since one can buy spell points with Karma at a 1:1 ratio. Then one can sell these for 25,000 apiece, which is a much better return than purchasing resources with said Karma. |
Where do you get that you can sell spell points for 25,000 nuyen/each in any chargen system, and where do you get that you can do this in BeCKS (v1 or v2) specifically? I don't remember ever seeing that rule, though I wouldn't be too surprised if it's a small note somewhere in a book. It definitely does not appear on the BeCKS v2 PDF. I guess it's not munchkinism after all if it's clearly against the rules...
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
I'm wondering about this bit, though:
Where do you get that you can sell spell points for 25,000 nuyen/each in any chargen system, and where do you get that you can do this in BeCKS (v1 or v2) specifically? I don't remember ever seeing that rule, though I wouldn't be too surprised if it's a small note somewhere in a book. It definitely does not appear on the BeCKS v2 PDF. I guess it's not munchkinism after all if it's clearly against the rules... |
He is probably using NSRCG and buying Spell Points using Becks, then switching to Priority or BP and selling them for 25K.
Not only munchkin, but pretty much cheating as NSRCG isn't designed to prohibit the tactic.
I have three problems with BeCKs -
1. Skillwires become much more game-breaking. When most PCs have a couple high-skills, the guy with skillwires is just a really handy dude who can do all of the things they can't. When everyone has a bunch of skills, he's always stepping on someones toes when he slots a chip.
2. Spellslingers make out like bandits.
3. It's impossible to double-check the math in a timely manner when you're face to face. Not for deliberate cheating, but to make sure someone didn't screw up their addition or multiplication somewhere.
1. Skillwires become much more game-breaking. When most PCs have a couple high-skills, the guy with skillwires is just a really handy dude who can do all of the things they can't. When everyone has a bunch of skills, he's always stepping on someones toes when he slots a chip.
2. Spellslingers make out like bandits.
3. It's impossible to double-check the math in a timely manner when you're face to face. Not for deliberate cheating, but to make sure someone didn't screw up their addition or multiplication somewhere.
Becks is an interesting concept, and it can be a different way to make your character, but I still prefer point buy. Of course this will be moot when 4th ed comes out.
| QUOTE (Capt. Dave) |
| One simply has to know how to "work" each system to get the maximum benefit. |
You may be interested in a house rule system my group discussed using. We call it "Tens and Twenties"
The basic concept is you pick those skills and attributes that really define your character, and those are 20. Everything else is 10. Ignore availability rules at chargen, and start with either
10 or 20 million depending on back story. Mages start with Magic 20 and as many spells as they like at force 20, Adepts get 20 power points of course. I think you'll find that this system bestows maximum benefit to nearly all characters.
You are welcome to print and distribute these rules, as long as you credit the RAT!
Have fun!
| QUOTE (tisoz @ Jul 13 2005, 11:47 AM) |
| He is probably using NSRCG and buying Spell Points using Becks, then switching to Priority or BP and selling them for 25K. Not only munchkin, but pretty much cheating as NSRCG isn't designed to prohibit the tactic. |
It is my understanding that Spell Points are worth
25,000 no matter what the chargen system. Besides, as I'm the GM, the characters I make can be munchkin, as they generally have to be to last more than one turn with 3-4 expert shadowrunners.And damn, Rat, what the hell prompted that post? Gaining a few skill points from BPs as opposed to Priority doesn't mean I play with characters such as your post would suggest.
I like BeCKS, but like any other character generation method, some characters come out better than others.
Street sammies get hit the hardest, since they generally require a combination of high Attributes, high resources, and a good number of 6's in their skill set - an expensive proposition in BeCKS.
Sorcerers, on the other hand, rock. They only need two Attributes (Intelligence and Willpower) and one skill (Sorcery) to start out at 6. This leaves them enough points to start out with decent scores for the other Attributes, lots of other skills in the 1-4 range, 50 spell points, a good range of contacts, and resources that are comparatively low, but better than the 5,000 - enough for the basic goodies that a sorcerer needs to start out with.
If you try to make the traditional Resources: A heavy-foci sorcerer, though, it will be harder - about as hard as the point system at the lower end (120-123 points).
Of course, street sammies get screwed over in Priority, too, and sorcerers have a lot of the advantages enumerated above in the other two character generation methods (they just shine even more in BeCKS).
Overall, BeCKS is probably best when the GM wants to encourage a street-level type of campaign, where most of the characters are not quite ready for "prime time". Characters will have decent Attributes, a wider range of skills (but fewer 6's), and will tend to have somewhat lower resources. Don't get me wrong, you can still do "traditional" min-maxing if you want a hardened professional, it will just require more sacrifices to do.
Some people complain about the math, but really, most of it is already done for you in the tables.
Street sammies get hit the hardest, since they generally require a combination of high Attributes, high resources, and a good number of 6's in their skill set - an expensive proposition in BeCKS.
Sorcerers, on the other hand, rock. They only need two Attributes (Intelligence and Willpower) and one skill (Sorcery) to start out at 6. This leaves them enough points to start out with decent scores for the other Attributes, lots of other skills in the 1-4 range, 50 spell points, a good range of contacts, and resources that are comparatively low, but better than the 5,000 - enough for the basic goodies that a sorcerer needs to start out with.
If you try to make the traditional Resources: A heavy-foci sorcerer, though, it will be harder - about as hard as the point system at the lower end (120-123 points).
Of course, street sammies get screwed over in Priority, too, and sorcerers have a lot of the advantages enumerated above in the other two character generation methods (they just shine even more in BeCKS).
Overall, BeCKS is probably best when the GM wants to encourage a street-level type of campaign, where most of the characters are not quite ready for "prime time". Characters will have decent Attributes, a wider range of skills (but fewer 6's), and will tend to have somewhat lower resources. Don't get me wrong, you can still do "traditional" min-maxing if you want a hardened professional, it will just require more sacrifices to do.
Some people complain about the math, but really, most of it is already done for you in the tables.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| If you try to make the traditional Resources: A heavy-foci sorcerer, though, it will be harder - about as hard as the point system at the lower end (120-123 points). |
Wow, I guess I've been frugal with my players, we usually go points, with 100 points. Have I been doing it wrong?
Er, yes. The sample characters in the base SR3 book typically come out to about 123 points. The book's suggestion is 120 points.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Er, yes. The sample characters in the base SR3 book typically come out to about 123 points. The book's suggestion is 120 points. ~J |
We kinda thought that 120 started you off at pretty much "international merceancy level, but this was before the low power rules came out. Has anyone said how those work out?
The only reference to spellpoints being worth 25K is that that is what you can spend to buy an extra one under the priority, sum to 10 and I think build point systems (build points may have a build point cost for them). Even under those systems you CAN NOT sell spell points for 25K each.
If I may giv an example of the munchkin’s that would result.
Priority system light sam. Magic E cash B has 400K for equipment
Magic b (conjurer) cash 3 selling all spell points gives 880k for equipment and probably a magic of 3, the ability to astraly preserve, theoretically the ability to learn conjuring and most significantly the option to get a weapon focus.
This was clearly not the intent of the rules especially as nowhere dose it say you can sell spell points for nuyen.
Edward
If I may giv an example of the munchkin’s that would result.
Priority system light sam. Magic E cash B has 400K for equipment
Magic b (conjurer) cash 3 selling all spell points gives 880k for equipment and probably a magic of 3, the ability to astraly preserve, theoretically the ability to learn conjuring and most significantly the option to get a weapon focus.
This was clearly not the intent of the rules especially as nowhere dose it say you can sell spell points for nuyen.
Edward
| QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle @ Jul 14 2005, 01:24 PM) |
| Wow, I guess I've been frugal with my players, we usually go points, with 100 points. Have I been doing it wrong? |
Yes, the game police will be along to administer your punishment shortly.
As long as you are having fun, who cares?
Be aware though that changing the point levels/ character build rules can change the relative power levels of mages vs cyber guys.
| QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle) |
| We kinda thought that 120 started you off at pretty much "international merceancy level" |
In my experience, they start you off about the same as a Priorities character, decently weaker for spellslingers. They're also, as I mentioned, the canon recommended total.
I give out 128 build points, and while the characters that come from that are definitely competent, even powerful, they're absolutely not international anything. They may be able to compete with international runners/mercenaries, but the resources to actually go international themselves are still well out of reach.
~J
Part of that depends, the generation system has a built in bais against 'international' players, in that contacts outside of the local area are apparently edges, not just 'regular' contacts. A decker or 'private detective' could probably be 'internationalized' quite easily, the others would take more effort.
I gave my players 125, and they still struggle to keep that low...
Ah, the Flaws just mount up.
Ah, the Flaws just mount up.
With BP we usuallty use 123-125. Yeah, PCs get to bump one attribute or tack on an extra small skill over the 120, but since the book example gave 123 i found it doesn't breaky anything.
Well, i guess what it boils down to is I'll have to give BeCKS a try to actually see it. I did create a sorc(further testing), and tried to break it a bit(since it seems sorcs were the main concern of balance.) Full mages are kind of hard to break with it, but Sorcs DO seem to come out good. I guess i'll only worry when every PC decides to make a sorc. If not, I guess I'm in the clear.
Sammies seem to turn out quite well actually....if you go the 'not all 6' route. The sammy I converted(with his combat skills anyway), had one at 6, two at 5, and a couple at 4, with a couple lower dabbling ones(combo weapons specialist/sammy. Less cyber than average but more skills.) But yeah, if you go the *Pistol/SMG/Cyberweapn/Edged at 6 sammy, you are gonna pay, no less than if you went the Comp6/CompBR6/Elect6/electBR6 decker.
I guess in the end they are all balanced, and all seem to have a slight favor toward some characters(BeCKS to the priority B magicians, point buy to the mundanes/sammy types, priority....) actually, I don't THINK priority favors anything.
But with a low munchkin group i dont have to worry. Sure, all of us min max a bit now and again(I come from the camp that a little bit of min maxing is good), but in the end as long as we have fun playing the game and seeing what kind of stupid quotes come out next we don't care.
As for selling Spell Points....oh HELL no.
Well, i guess what it boils down to is I'll have to give BeCKS a try to actually see it. I did create a sorc(further testing), and tried to break it a bit(since it seems sorcs were the main concern of balance.) Full mages are kind of hard to break with it, but Sorcs DO seem to come out good. I guess i'll only worry when every PC decides to make a sorc. If not, I guess I'm in the clear.
Sammies seem to turn out quite well actually....if you go the 'not all 6' route. The sammy I converted(with his combat skills anyway), had one at 6, two at 5, and a couple at 4, with a couple lower dabbling ones(combo weapons specialist/sammy. Less cyber than average but more skills.) But yeah, if you go the *Pistol/SMG/Cyberweapn/Edged at 6 sammy, you are gonna pay, no less than if you went the Comp6/CompBR6/Elect6/electBR6 decker.
I guess in the end they are all balanced, and all seem to have a slight favor toward some characters(BeCKS to the priority B magicians, point buy to the mundanes/sammy types, priority....) actually, I don't THINK priority favors anything.
But with a low munchkin group i dont have to worry. Sure, all of us min max a bit now and again(I come from the camp that a little bit of min maxing is good), but in the end as long as we have fun playing the game and seeing what kind of stupid quotes come out next we don't care.
As for selling Spell Points....oh HELL no.
We use 132 points. It doesn't feel overpowered.. We get into trouble all the time. 
In our campaign, if you do not have skills at 6 for combat etc. then you will lose. Hard.
This makes skewed characters for sure... Noone can drive a car reliably for one thing, but its a willing sacrifice for greater power in our focus areas.
In our campaign, if you do not have skills at 6 for combat etc. then you will lose. Hard.
This makes skewed characters for sure... Noone can drive a car reliably for one thing, but its a willing sacrifice for greater power in our focus areas.
What I really like about BECKs is how it eliminates the 'loss' of putting your skill points into a bunch of low ranking skills you 'should know' but are usually neglected for combat skills.
So your ex soldier can have:
Leadership(military) 1/3
Parachuting (standard Drop) 1/3
Wilderness survival 2
Assault Rifle (M22/23) 4/6
all for the same cost of Assault Rifles 6 (29 karma vs 30 karma)
This way, characters who have 'background skills' aren't completely screwed by the combat monkeys.
Doing the above in points would cost 11 skill points
So your ex soldier can have:
Leadership(military) 1/3
Parachuting (standard Drop) 1/3
Wilderness survival 2
Assault Rifle (M22/23) 4/6
all for the same cost of Assault Rifles 6 (29 karma vs 30 karma)
This way, characters who have 'background skills' aren't completely screwed by the combat monkeys.
Doing the above in points would cost 11 skill points
| QUOTE (Capt. Dave) |
| And damn, Rat, what the hell prompted that post? Gaining a few skill points from BPs as opposed to Priority doesn't mean I play with characters such as your post would suggest. |
OK Cap, I'm sorry. The point is it doesn't really matter what numbers are on the Character Sheet, because the GM can always bring something heavier - he's the GM. What DOES matter is that while you are squeezing every last stat point out of CharGen you are effectively starting with more BPs than the rest of your crew. That unbalances the game for the rest of them, and makes for sad players.
Just play fair and enjoy the story: that's the whole point isn't it?
Yes, as a GM I can always use something heavier, but as I generally use starting characters as NPCs ( excepting, of course, joe wageslave, rent-a-cops, etc.) versus players with 200+ Karma, it's hardly unbalancing.
At the level of experience both the characters and the players have, game balance is rarely an issue. I've never had complaints in all the years I've been GMing; in fact, most of my players find me lenient compared to most GMs on DS.
My players generally pick the chargen system that nets them the most points, and I encourage them to do so. They have backstories, and roleplay well, as I like to think I do. Maybe it's just that I have a great group of players, but I have never had an issue with "munchkinism". My players net the max points, but they always go to skills that flesh out the character, as do I. Maybe that's why I don't understand that immense hatred of gaining a few extra points by working a system, because I have never had a player abuse it.
At the level of experience both the characters and the players have, game balance is rarely an issue. I've never had complaints in all the years I've been GMing; in fact, most of my players find me lenient compared to most GMs on DS.
My players generally pick the chargen system that nets them the most points, and I encourage them to do so. They have backstories, and roleplay well, as I like to think I do. Maybe it's just that I have a great group of players, but I have never had an issue with "munchkinism". My players net the max points, but they always go to skills that flesh out the character, as do I. Maybe that's why I don't understand that immense hatred of gaining a few extra points by working a system, because I have never had a player abuse it.
| QUOTE |
| The point is it doesn't really matter what numbers are on the Character Sheet, because the GM can always bring something heavier - he's the GM |
Oh yeah, totally. My crew and I learned this last week.
We totally owned The Rolling 30's, killing half their boys and raiding all their BTLs. Oh man did we ever go on a shopping spree. Absolutely MASSIVE windfall, so we went and lived it up. Now, my char likes to style himself a ninja, so obviously he packs a katana. I took part of my cut of it to go get my katana and ninja stars dikoted among other things. The other guys bought some bigger guns too, I think the troll actually bought a freakin' machine gun and a big-ass gyro mount for it.
So two weeks later, we hear that The Rolling 30's were trying to rebuild themselves. We'd checked them all out really closely, these bitches were nothing and had no real connections. The fact that they were trying to rebuild at all was admirable in a "Awww, wook at da retard" sorta way. Our boys all piled into a car and moved on over to them.
Oh man did we get a surprise.
What we hadn't expected was that our GM was totally serious about the fact that he can always bring something heavier. Every single one of those assholes suddenly had a dikoted katana instead of a knife and Ares Alpha's all around. We took one look at them and DROVE THE OTHER WAY. Once we were a short distance away, I immediately snapped my katana over my knee, the troll gave his machine gun to some orphans, and so on. We just couldn't handle that shit.
We went back to our old ways and were pleased to find that The Rolling 30's had also done so, trading in their dikote for simple steel, their assault rifles for pistols and sub machine guns.
We totally learned our lesson. Don't try to advance your character, the GM will just unzip his pants, take out his dick and slap you down with it.
@Modesitt: Well I hope the GM in question had a plausable explanation for all that apparent financial backing. Metagaming sucks, rather it's the GM or the players doing it in my opinion.
@Capt. Dave: Yeah. Selling back spell points certainly isn't in the rules. Granted you're the GM and can certainly change it around but I wouldn't reccomend it. Especially if a new player joins up or one of your current ones gets geeked and has to remake. If you're using NSRCG just turn the rules off and dump a couple extra points into whatever with your NPCs. Make them how you would see them being as oppossed to using points. That's certainly GM perogitive.
@Topic: The thing I like about BECKS is that it streamlines character generation along the same lines as character advancement. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's set down to build a character and dumped extra skill points into something I figured I would raise at some point just so I wouldn't have to do it later, thus making it cheaper. Or didn't take a couple low level skills because they'd be so cheap to raise later. The 1-1 systems that aren't BECKS tend to favor min/maxing in the long run. With BECKS even if you don't build a guy who's a jack of all trades, your karma costs for everything work themselves out the same in the end.
What I don't like about BECKS, it's time consuming. If I didn't have NSRCG I'd never bother with it.
@Capt. Dave: Yeah. Selling back spell points certainly isn't in the rules. Granted you're the GM and can certainly change it around but I wouldn't reccomend it. Especially if a new player joins up or one of your current ones gets geeked and has to remake. If you're using NSRCG just turn the rules off and dump a couple extra points into whatever with your NPCs. Make them how you would see them being as oppossed to using points. That's certainly GM perogitive.
@Topic: The thing I like about BECKS is that it streamlines character generation along the same lines as character advancement. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's set down to build a character and dumped extra skill points into something I figured I would raise at some point just so I wouldn't have to do it later, thus making it cheaper. Or didn't take a couple low level skills because they'd be so cheap to raise later. The 1-1 systems that aren't BECKS tend to favor min/maxing in the long run. With BECKS even if you don't build a guy who's a jack of all trades, your karma costs for everything work themselves out the same in the end.
What I don't like about BECKS, it's time consuming. If I didn't have NSRCG I'd never bother with it.
Oh, it's cool to advance you character, but the GM should then direct the game to heavier OpFor's. If you want to spend your time taking down Go Gangers, then you're right, they should be equipped within the confines of the story.
No matter how tough the PC's get, there is ALWAYS someone bigger and badder out there. To keep the players challenged the opposition needs to get better. Your example was just a GM doing the right thing the wrong way.
No matter how tough the PC's get, there is ALWAYS someone bigger and badder out there. To keep the players challenged the opposition needs to get better. Your example was just a GM doing the right thing the wrong way.
| QUOTE |
| We totally learned our lesson. Don't try to advance your character, the GM will just unzip his pants, take out his dick and slap you down with it. |
I'm only hearing one side of this, so I might be taking things out of context, but I strongly disagree with what happened there.
- Character advancement is a good thing. If the PCs aren't allowed to get better, what's the whole point of giving them money and karma? Players have to have something to look forward to.
- The GM should create competition that's challenging for the runners, but not make it such blatent meta-gaming. It wouldn't take as much suspension of disbelief if the GM had said "After wiping out the 30s, you discover that they were paying off the Seopa Rings/Mafia/Yaks/whoever for use of the territory. If you want to keep this territory, either pay rent to the 'family', or go to war with a much bigger fish." The players might still get shafted, but at least it doesn't feel as much like railroading.
Um, guys? I have a strong suspicion Modesitt was just taking the piss out of whoever posted the (somewhat) silly quote about character stats not being important because the GM will always have bigger guns... There is no "other side."
| QUOTE (weblife) |
| We use 132 points. It doesn't feel overpowered.. We get into trouble all the time. In our campaign, if you do not have skills at 6 for combat etc. then you will lose. Hard. This makes skewed characters for sure... Noone can drive a car reliably for one thing, but its a willing sacrifice for greater power in our focus areas. |
That may be it. We don't tend to have a ton of combst, except with equally inept people. A cop is a threat, but gang members only have a slight upper hand.
Does anyone know how the low power rules in MJLLB work?
| QUOTE |
| I'm only hearing one side of this, so I might be taking things out of context, but I strongly disagree with what happened there. |
| QUOTE |
| Well I hope the GM in question had a plausable explanation for all that apparent financial backing. Metagaming sucks, rather it's the GM or the players doing it in my opinion. |
Think of it as Aesop's Fables, only with gangster-style cursing and a Shadowrun theme. It was to make a point about the old canard of "Oh, the GM can always just bring out something bigger". Namely, that it is just plain wrong. This was all but a classic example of "Same target, yet it's inexplicably bigger because we are too". The GM using something bigger completely broke the players immersion.
That saying is a massive pet peeve of mine. Whether it takes the form of "The GM can use it too" or "The GM can always use something bigger", they're all just paths that simply lead to straight to the mountains of madness. Yes, the numbers on the character sheet matter. If all of the Novatech shadow teams have a 5 in Assault Rifles, then by taking your skill up to 6 you are BETTER than a Novatech black ops team. Having a 6 should not mean that every Novatech team now has a 6 in AR in order to retain parity with you.
We now return you to your regularily scheduled programming.
| QUOTE |
| If all of the Novatech shadow teams have a 5 in Assault Rifles, then by taking your skill up to 6 you are BETTER than a Novatech black ops team. Having a 6 should not mean that every Novatech team now has a 6 in AR in order to retain parity with you. |
Agreed. But, the next run you're fixer might say "Word on the street is spreading that you're one of the best there is with rifle of yours...I think you're ready for the big time. This week I need you to make a run against the special, ultra-secret, super-duper, high security with sprinkles on top R&D Novatech facility. The security's a little more elite, but I think you can take 'em. Of course, a high-profile run like this will earn you some bonus cred, too."
That is, incidentally, why I've always hated the relative NPC power levels. A mid-level security company whose grunts are rated Inferior shouldn't have those grunts become incapable of tying their own shoes just because you start a ganger campaign.
On the other hand, Everial (who hasn't posted here in ages) is of the opinion that they make sense, and defends it with the question: what has Novatech been doing while you've been raising your Assault Rifles skill? Twiddling their collective thumbs?
~J
On the other hand, Everial (who hasn't posted here in ages) is of the opinion that they make sense, and defends it with the question: what has Novatech been doing while you've been raising your Assault Rifles skill? Twiddling their collective thumbs?
~J
| QUOTE (Everial(?)) |
| what has Novatech been doing while you've been raising your Assault Rifles skill? Twiddling their collective thumbs? |
They've been moving the more elite guys onto more demanding jobs, while filling the holes in the shadow teams with guys from their HRTs.
(As a GM, I try very hard not to scale particular threats to the power level of the PC group. Like most posters here, I gather, I try to scale scenarios, campaigns and storylines instead.)
We had a player who used to GM, then took it up again, once who would literally look over our character sheets and dole out the same abilities, skills, and equipment to his NPCs - at a rating one point higher than what we had. Samurai has rifles 6? NPC has rifles 7. Mage has magic 7? NPC mage has Magic 8. You have Wired 3/Improved Reflexes 3/etc? So do all the corpsecs, gangers, etc.
I believe he did this because he didn't understand how to play characters. Since we would kill a guy standing in the open, at close range, using no cover, in great lighting, the threat wasn't enough. I guess he never read up on modifiers, even after we suggested he do so.
Then he started using the exact same actions we did, immediately after we did. Wujen commands a spirit to use confusion? Next turn, Wujen gets confused. Samurai launches a grenade? Next turn, samurai gets a grenade launched at him.
It was like fighting a damn mirror.
Needless to say, I took back the GM reins, and everyone's happier, including the interim GM mentioned above. My NPCs know only what they would realistically know, and my corps don't hire and equip people based on what these particular runners are carrying this week. Most times, the players outclass the opposition in terms of equipment, skills, and attributes, some times more than others. I feel this is how it should be.
My view is sure, the GM can use anything he/she wants, but can the NPC opposition use it realistically? If the answer's no, then it's best left out.
I believe he did this because he didn't understand how to play characters. Since we would kill a guy standing in the open, at close range, using no cover, in great lighting, the threat wasn't enough. I guess he never read up on modifiers, even after we suggested he do so.
Then he started using the exact same actions we did, immediately after we did. Wujen commands a spirit to use confusion? Next turn, Wujen gets confused. Samurai launches a grenade? Next turn, samurai gets a grenade launched at him.
It was like fighting a damn mirror.
Needless to say, I took back the GM reins, and everyone's happier, including the interim GM mentioned above. My NPCs know only what they would realistically know, and my corps don't hire and equip people based on what these particular runners are carrying this week. Most times, the players outclass the opposition in terms of equipment, skills, and attributes, some times more than others. I feel this is how it should be.
My view is sure, the GM can use anything he/she wants, but can the NPC opposition use it realistically? If the answer's no, then it's best left out.
| QUOTE (Modesitt) | ||||
Think of it as Aesop's Fables, only with gangster-style cursing and a Shadowrun theme. It was to make a point about the old canard of "Oh, the GM can always just bring out something bigger". Namely, that it is just plain wrong. This was all but a classic example of "Same target, yet it's inexplicably bigger because we are too". The GM using something bigger completely broke the players immersion. That saying is a massive pet peeve of mine. Whether it takes the form of "The GM can use it too" or "The GM can always use something bigger", they're all just paths that simply lead to straight to the mountains of madness. Yes, the numbers on the character sheet matter. If all of the Novatech shadow teams have a 5 in Assault Rifles, then by taking your skill up to 6 you are BETTER than a Novatech black ops team. Having a 6 should not mean that every Novatech team now has a 6 in AR in order to retain parity with you. |
One of mine too, and sadly I've seen situations like you just described happen enough that I didn't take it for what it was. When the players reach a point where there considered elite the story shouldn't suddenly bump up every other bum in the story to be elite as well, instead it should have the characters tackle the elite.
If the GM still wants to cause an issue out of say some gang members, that can be done without adjusting stats to make them Uber. Give them situational modifiers, some sort of tactical advantage such as two or three times more live bodies then the runners. When players start getting shot Combat pools start to run thin.
How about a group of trolls with a smart leader. Lord Torgo comes to mind and by God I'm sure he realizes that the common person has alot more trouble seeing through smoke grenades then a troll does. The point is, stats aren't the end all and be all, make players use there heads by having the enemies use there's. In the end it makes for much more dangerous and memorable fights.
The Spikes are the elite.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (mmu1) |
| ...Modesitt was just taking the piss out of whoever posted the (somewhat) silly quote about character stats not being important... |
Rereading that it is pretty silly. I meant it in the context that the stats should not be focused on at the cost of story and balance, which it seemed to me that Capt. Dave was doing with his "Build the Character 4 times with different methods and pick the best" approach.
As far as advancement I think Apathy has it right on the money. When the PC's are the big fish it's time to move them to a new pond. Otherwise, the game gets easier as time progresses, and to me easier = less fun.
| QUOTE (The Stainless Steel Rat) |
| I meant it in the context that the stats should not be focused on at the cost of story and balance, which it seemed to me that Capt. Dave was doing with his "Build the Character 4 times with different methods and pick the best" approach. |
I can understand that view, as most "min-maxers" are out purely for stats. My characters start with a concept, then some major supporting facts as a sort of outline, then the story is built around that. Then the stats are added on to fit the character. I may squeeze every available point out of chargen, but these usually go to appropriate Etiquette skills and extra knowledge skills.
As my characters usually have a detailed backstory and diverse skill base, and have quirks, fears, hates, etrc. the , I don't consider myself a munchkin. Min-maxer, yes, but I always end up with a colorful character that works out really well, roll-and role-play wise. It is my belief that one can min-max and still have a good roleplaying character that is well-rounded and realistic.
| QUOTE (Capt. Dave) |
| It is my understanding that Spell Points are worth 25,000 no matter what the chargen system. Besides, as I'm the GM, the characters I make can be munchkin <snip> |
The 25,000 is only to buy spell points, no where does it say they can be sold for that amount. The only price I can recall for selling spell points is at 1 BP/5 spell points.
If you are the GM, it doesn't really matter.
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