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SL James
That's pretty much true of the RPG industry, too.
Adam
Yeah. RPG industry flakiness + Amazon and other mass merchants wanting solicitations 6-9 months in advance generally means that Amazon has really wrong information for RPG products, and it's a pain in the butt to get it updated correctly.

There have been some positive back-end changes with FanPro's relationship with the book trade, though, and we should be seeing increased penetration into it.
Caine Hazen
6 inches of dick....deeper penetration... I swear that I walked into bulldrek not dumpshock...

Though doesn't it turn ya on when Adam J starts talking bout deeper penetration
...I'm just say...yizzoi!
Nikoli
that's pounds, not inches...
the_dunner
QUOTE (Adam)
There have been some positive back-end changes with FanPro's relationship with the book trade, though, and we should be seeing increased penetration into it.

I was happy, but a bit puzzled when I saw 6 copies each of SR3 and the CBT Master Rules at my local Barnes and Noble last week. It's great that they're carrying it, but ... it seemed excessive to have quite so many copies of the core rules and none of the expansions for either. I hope their buyer actually learns the product lines rather than just giving up when everything doesn't sell fast enough.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Adam)

There have been some positive back-end changes with FanPro's relationship with the book trade, though, and we should be seeing increased penetration into it.

I have no idea what you just said.......



We'll we being seeing it in August? Or is September more realistic? Or is that too, just wishful thinking? *crosses fingers*
the_dunner
In English, Adam was saying that you should soon be seeing FanPro products in regular book stores. aka Amazon, Borders, Waldenbooks, Barnes & Noble, etc. It has little relevance to the street date of SR4. smile.gif

(Though, it certainly could increase the number of players out there!)
fistandantilus4.0
cool , thanks!


Still hoping for a tentative date. One of thsoe insecure types that needs constant reassurance. ohplease.gif
nezumi
So availability is around 3/1 week (past august). Time to roll negotiation!
Homme-qui-rigole
QUOTE (nezumi)
So availability is around 3/1 week (past august). Time to roll negotiation!

It's not Negotiation, you must roll Etiquette for that... And why not buy 1 or 2 additionnal dice and re-roll failure with Karma Pool???
Cain
Because Karma Pool no longer exists in 4th ed. wink.gif
Kagetenshi
Ah, but do we use 4th ed rules until we've successfully obtained the book?

That would suck. Use your Car skill to get to the bookstore, but on the way back you have to pray your Reaction is half-decent (or whatever it's linked to now) as well.

~J
Edge2054
biggrin.gif

That was good Kage.
Stormdrake
So when is the speculative release date? My local gaming store is already telling me not to expect it till after October do to problems with the distributer?
tisoz
QUOTE (Adam @ Jul 20 2005, 11:51 PM)
[And, looking at the SR4 credits list... FanPro is probably one of the top five companies in terms of using female freelancers for writing, editing, art, and design.]

I thought they were probably tops, though admittedly, I do not know the gaming industry that well. I sometimes wonder if the preponderance of female contributors is why I have issues with some of the material. I'm not trying to be sexist, just but I seem to read fiction from male authors more than female, and when I do read female authors, there are things they present that I have a hard time accepting.

QUOTE (Caine Hazen)
Though doesn't it turn ya on when Adam J starts talking bout deeper penetration


Or pain in the butt and back-end changes in the same post.
winterhawk11
QUOTE (tisoz)
I thought they were probably tops, though admittedly, I do not know the gaming industry that well.  I sometimes wonder if the preponderance of female contributors is why I have issues with some of the material.  I'm not trying to be sexist, just but I seem to read fiction from male authors more than female, and when I do read female authors, there are things they present that I have a hard time accepting.

Interesting...care to elaborate? I'm honestly curious about your thoughts and observations on this.

(BTW, taking a look at the list of freelancers who are relatively active in producing recent books, I count four female contributors: Pistons, Anaka, Lady Jestyr, and me. (I hope I'm not forgetting anybody, and will be embarrassed if I do.) There are quite a few more male contributors than that, so I wouldn't exactly call us a "preponderance."
Ellery
I don't find a bias towards implausibility coming from female science fiction writers, tisoz. Do you have specific authors in mind? I don't think there are any female science fiction writers with the name recognition of Brin and Stephenson (much less Asimov). Are you comparing fairly between writers of equal quality? In a male-dominated industry, you're less likely to have exceptional women simply because you're less likely to have women at all. As far as fantasy goes, do you find things in, say, Harry Potter or A Wrinkle in Time harder to swallow than things in, say, the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe? I don't.

I'm not terribly familiar with other types of fictional writing.
Raskolnikov
Harry Poter isn't fantasy...or at least she didn't realize it was...or something.

Humorous aside...well, aside, the thing with women in science fiction is that the cultural bias for men to be interested in technology moreso than the women means that much science fiction produced by women explores socialogical oddities, studies, or single-point alterations. While many men do this as well, a large portion of male works in this vein can be disqualified because it is a inheriently technological advancement or alteration that causes the social aspect to present itself (how mankind reacts to AI, resistance to space flight, etc).

These are generalizations. Counter examples can be found, and found easily if one cares to spend any amount of time. But at large, female science fiction writers focus on familiar science fiction themes brought about from an unusual (for the common genre) pressure.

When a female writer mentions technology it is often not with the obsessive explaination that will accompany many of the prolific male authors' works. I suppose lack of hand-waving details, describing what principle of physics it's based on or breaks, or (in the case of cyberpunk writers) a long string of technological pseudojargon that doesn't actually mean anything and will often times contradict itself, one may see a bias towards implausiblity(?) I put the question mark as that's my best guess, I've never noticed it myself.

There are not many big-name female science fiction authors. Even the biggest are fairly niche, but they are there and do have some interesting works. The females I have read that address technology with the enthusiasm more known from science fiction have done so in the same vien as the males. Some have a solid grasp of what they are talking about, some are writing like Gibson and just like to ride the cyberwave of vocabulary.
littlesean
Raskolnikov,
who are these authors (female) that you mention? You give them a pretty decent build up but fail to name them. I want to know, because I like good SF, and am always on the look out for new blood.

I do have a few favorites in that genre already that happen to have two x chromosomes: Elizabeth Moon comes immediately to mind, along with Anne McCaffrey, although her science is softer than most, the writing is still enjoyable.

So share with us for the edification of all. Besides, classing Pistols, Lady Anaka, Lady Jestyr, and Winterhawke with these people surely won't hurt their self images biggrin.gif
Raskolnikov
I am horrible with names and had to leave my accumulated library behind when I moved. I can't give you a laundry list of names without some research I don't feel like doing. For starters though, and a good example (not of the technophiles) look at one name I do remember Judith Merrill, a contemporary of the 70s writers. As female authors go she's one of the big names.

I'm not a hyper-focused hobbyist so it's not something I can rattle off, but I can tell you how I ran into all of the notable female authors I liked, and the male ones who weren't big-names as well. Science fiction puts out all kinds of anthologies and collected works. Such books, filled with short stories are also much lighter reading than full novels and are well-suited to pick up and put down in short intervals. If a particular short story catches your eye in one of these books, then check for something by that author name next time you're at your local used book store.
Slacker
One female sci-fi author that I have enjoyed reading is C.J. Cherryh. With only a few exceptions (never bother trying to read Downbelow Station), her books are well written and quite entertaining (particularly the Foreigner series).
tisoz
QUOTE (winterhawk11)
QUOTE (tisoz)
I thought they were probably tops, though admittedly, I do not know the gaming industry that well.  I sometimes wonder if the preponderance of female contributors is why I have issues with some of the material.  I'm not trying to be sexist, just but I seem to read fiction from male authors more than female, and when I do read female authors, there are things they present that I have a hard time accepting.

Interesting...care to elaborate? I'm honestly curious about your thoughts and observations on this.

(BTW, taking a look at the list of freelancers who are relatively active in producing recent books, I count four female contributors: Pistons, Anaka, Lady Jestyr, and me. (I hope I'm not forgetting anybody, and will be embarrassed if I do.) There are quite a few more male contributors than that, so I wouldn't exactly call us a "preponderance."

Sorry it took so long to respond. I was trying to pin down issues, and hopefully give you some productive feedback. I doubt if I can do so. frown.gif

I remember getting books back in first and second edition, and for the most part enjoying reading them. One notable exception (not to single out the aothors, but to pinpoint an example) was the London Sourcebook. I still do not think I have read it all the way through, but know I have tried at least a half a dozen times to do so. Most of the books I recall liking had male authors listed, many times on the cover.

I buy about every Shadowrun book published, but any more it seems like work to slog through them. They seem to have lost their fun, the excitement, the revelations. I have even started taking notes when reading them because the tone is at times monotonous and the big points get blended in with the filler.

Now may be a good time to apologize because I have not kept up with reading all the new releases. I have them, have skimmed them hoping something ignites some passion to read it, and have tried hitting parts I have heard were interesting. Those parts seem few and far between.

When trying to come up with some productive feedback, I kept thinking of the chick flick versus action movie analogy. I want Shadowrun to be an action movie, but when I read the books, it makes me feel like I'm sitting through a chick flick. Now some chick flicks are all right, and so are some of the recent SR releases, but they still give me that chick flick feel, not the action, adventure/comedy, blow drek up kind of feeling.

I don't know if it is just the differences in the sexes or what. I realized I read few female authors compared to male authors, and the female authors have a different tone than the guys. Anne Rice was one that came to mind. After reading her first three vampire books, I don't think I could finish another. There was the team that wrote a Dragonlance trilogy of books. It seemed they were more concerned with how the characters felt about things and the relationships than a male author would have focused upon. The male author would have probably emphasized the logistics or actions needed to accomplish a task rather than how they felt about the task. Like after an attack, the guy author would have probably been talking about steps to take to prevent it happening again and dealing with the physical results of the attack. The female authors seemed to focus on how the characters felt about it. SR's Worlds Without End by Caroline Spector is my least favorite SR novel. A large part is its tone, a theme, and a few technical things that leapt out and reminded me it was a female author. (The one I recall was about shifting in overdrive and the car responding like it was hyperdrive or something.)

I can't recall the female author who has a series of detective/suspense novels about a female coroner, but though I enjoy the novels, she focuses on things male authors tend not to. Similarly, Winterhawk11, I have read much of your fan fiction. I enjoy it somewhat, but I really enjoy Shapcano's. Some SR fan fiction is comparable to taking medicine - you choke down a dose because it is about the game and universe you love. Your fan fiction is like a daily meal - I could live off of it and some meals are better than others with some being memorable and rarely worried about getting food poisoning. Shapcano's is like eating out at your favorite restaurant to me. (Wouldn't I have egg on my face if it turned out Shap was a woman?!) My point is look at the differences between your styles. I didn't know you were female for a while, but reading your fiction there was something a little off for my taste. When I learned you were female, I kind of attributed it to that.

I'm wondering if that is one of my issues with the published SR material? Maybe it is the lack of a unified voice and overall personality, due to the books being written by several different authors. I know some of the best stuff I have written had a distinct voice and personality to it. I heard a LA had sections with personality and people responded to it.

I know this is a bit disjointed, but I have tried to give my impressions and they are hardly concrete. Add to it, I'm talking in generalities and not about specific works. Maybe we can come up with a specific case and discuss?
Derek
You know it's funny you should mention the Dragonlance novels, written by Margerat Weis and Tracy Hickman.

Funny you should use them as your justification as to why you don't like female authors.

[ Spoiler ]


Your prejudice is showing.

Derek
Kitsune
Thank you, Derek. Just - thank you.

And tisoz?

Could it just be that Anne Rice has a different tone than "guys" because she's batshit insane? She's about a good example as a "typical female author" as Tracy Hickman.

You haven't considered the fact that maybe - just maybe - it's you who has changed, and not the books? That maybe what you were reading 10 - 15 years ago seemed more fun, more action-y and adventure-y because you were younger, and hadn't read twenty or thirty books of the same kind before? For you Shadowrun books might be kind of like crack - it's not that the quality of the stuff's gone down, but that you need a bigger fix.
Jrayjoker
rotfl.gif rotfl.gif rotfl.gif

Oh, shit! That was funny.
Grimtooth
Rifts Gold Edition

Palladium is on time!!!! rotfl.gif

Derek
QUOTE (Kitsune)
Thank you, Derek. Just - thank you.

And tisoz?

Could it just be that Anne Rice has a different tone than "guys" because she's batshit insane? She's about a good example as a "typical female author" as Tracy Hickman.

You haven't considered the fact that maybe - just maybe - it's you who has changed, and not the books? That maybe what you were reading 10 - 15 years ago seemed more fun, more action-y and adventure-y because you were younger, and hadn't read twenty or thirty books of the same kind before? For you Shadowrun books might be kind of like crack - it's not that the quality of the stuff's gone down, but that you need a bigger fix.

I hate when people use false/stupid shit to justify things. Fine, if tisoz thinks he dislikes all female authors, more power to him. He will lose out on a great deal of very, very good literature. But to take a false assumption and use it to justify your claim, to me, that makes it even worse.

It's like falsifying data in a study, or lab experiment. And, being a former physics student, I know what a problem that can be.

Derek
Bigity
So you are saying Anne Rice is not insane?
Jrayjoker
I don't think there is much doubt about her "quirks," but she may not be diagnosable.
tisoz
Sorry, I was trying to think of female authors I have read. I was having trouble coming up with any names. Sorry if I did not know Tracy was a guy, but I am still going to assume that the lead name of a writing partnership has more control or influence. And their novels read feminine to me (and just slightly better than most fanfic).

I did not know Winterhawk was female when I started reading her fiction. It seemed slightly skewed to me. When I found out her gender, it was kind of like a light being turned on as to what my feeling was toward her work. I still enjoy it, it just seems the perspective, even when writing male characters is off.

When I was reading the acclaimed living on the streets section in the SSG, it seemed tame to me. I was disappointed it went only as far as it went. Is it because it was written by a female? I don't know, but there was a perfect place to make the world seem gritty, and I did not feel it.

Faye Kellerman was the detective novelist I could not place. I like what she writes, but the peripheral things she writes about are still girly things. Maybe women get that feeling reading male authors?

And maybe I am reading female authors who have had a hard time getting published or sold who have resorted to pen names or initials. Hopefully it goes beyond prejudice, which I am being accused of, but maybe to overcome the sex stereotype, of which I freely admit.

I am sorry for offending anyone. I was trying to explain what amounts to a nagging feeling. Maybe if I was female, I could write all day about feelings. I have an easier time relating concrete ideas. And that is the gist of what I was getting at.
Ancient History
QUOTE (tisoz)
Sorry, I was trying to think of female authors I have read. I was having trouble coming up with any names.

It's hard to judge by names. R.A. MacAvoy, for examples, is female (following a trend of female authors using their initials so as not to lower sales) while Terry Pratchett is not. I'd hesitate to judge the sex of the author based solely on their works.
tisoz
QUOTE (Ancient History)
QUOTE (tisoz @ Aug 17 2005, 07:48 PM)
Sorry, I was trying to think of female authors I have read.  I was having trouble coming up with any names.

It's hard to judge by names. R.A. MacAvoy, for examples, is female (following a trend of female authors using their initials so as not to lower sales) while Terry Pratchett is not. I'd hesitate to judge the sex of the author based solely on their works.

It sounds like you understand what I was getting at. Maybe the ones who write under an obviously female name do so because their works a definite female ring to them?
Jrayjoker
I guess I don't see where you are coming from, or perhaps I prefer female authors in general for the same reasons you say you prefer male authors. You are opening yourself up for a flame war when you post about people writing about girly subjects, though.
Walknuki
Okay, time to re-post and re-ask. Are we going to get our hands on Shadowrun 4 this month (without resorting to going to Gencon)? Yes, no, maybe? Has a release date been confirmed, rumored, something?

Throw me a bone here people!
Kagetenshi
Release date has come and gone. As for when it actually hits stores, that's anyone's guess—PDF is supposed to hit sometime in the next few days.

~J
Walknuki
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Release date has come and gone. As for when it actually hits stores, that's anyone's guess—PDF is supposed to hit sometime in the next few days.

~J

So theoretically it could be in stores right now and I could just go pick it up.

Huzzah.
Bandwidthoracle
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Release date has come and gone. As for when it actually hits stores, that's anyone's guess—PDF is supposed to hit sometime in the next few days.

~J

So there is a non-gencon printing out there?
Walknuki
QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Aug 21 2005, 02:30 PM)
Release date has come and gone. As for when it actually hits stores, that's anyone's guess—PDF is supposed to hit sometime in the next few days.

~J

So there is a non-gencon printing out there?

I don't think so. Just called around to my local book stores and they all said they've got no idea when it comes out. Had it been released but not arrived yet they would atleast know to expect it in an upcoming shipment.

I think he's referring to the Gencon release, which I was specifically not asking about.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Walknuki @ Aug 21 2005, 02:33 PM)
So theoretically it could be in stores right now and I could just go pick it up.

Huzzah.

Theoretically, yes. In practice? I don't know where the copies are shipping from, but my guess is that no place outside of a hundred miles or so from there will see them before August is out.

Keep in mind that this is entirely speculation—speculation based on some information, but speculation nonetheless.

Edit: Walknuki: perhaps you're using some alternative definition of "release" that I'm not familiar with? It has been released, yes, there's no two ways about that.

~J
Walknuki
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Aug 21 2005, 02:52 PM)
QUOTE (Walknuki @ Aug 21 2005, 02:33 PM)
So theoretically it could be in stores right now and I could just go pick it up.

Huzzah.

Theoretically, yes. In practice? I don't know where the copies are shipping from, but my guess is that no place outside of a hundred miles or so from there will see them before August is out.

Keep in mind that this is entirely speculation—speculation based on some information, but speculation nonetheless.

Edit: Walknuki: perhaps you're using some alternative definition of "release" that I'm not familiar with? It has been released, yes, there's no two ways about that.

~J

Alternate definition? Books printed out and shiped to stores and the publisher giving permission to sell said books is a release.

Handing a few out at a convention is not.

It doesn't matter if the books are all printed out and sitting collecting dust or if they're sitting in the back of stores but it isn't for sale yet the book isn't released.

Also, thanks for the blind speculation passed off as accurate information.

And incase you're gonna bust my balls on symantics I'm asking about a "General Release" not a "Limited Release" which is what happened at Gencon.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (tisoz)
When I was reading the acclaimed living on the streets section in the SSG, it seemed tame to me. I was disappointed it went only as far as it went. Is it because it was written by a female? I don't know, but there was a perfect place to make the world seem gritty, and I did not feel it.

Well, I thought it was actually a bit cursory, truthfully (and an even MORE compressed version of it is in SR4), but I think something is better than nothing. I don't think a sample of writing written for a short secondary RPG sourcebook really gives a glimpse into a writing style... you have to cram as much information as possible, and I didn't see much in there that was outright fluff.

As far as female authors are concerned, I think I know of a popular one... writes those books about some geek with glasses named... Henry Pooter? Harley Porter? Something like that. *grin*
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Walknuki @ Aug 21 2005, 03:02 PM)
Alternate definition? Books printed out and shiped to stores and the publisher giving permission to sell said books is a release.

Handing a few out at a convention is not.

It doesn't matter if the books are all printed out and sitting collecting dust or if they're sitting in the back of stores but it isn't for sale yet the book isn't released.

Also, thanks for the blind speculation passed off as accurate information.

And incase you're gonna bust my balls on symantics I'm asking about a "General Release" not a "Limited Release" which is what happened at Gencon.

Ah, I see, you're just making up bullshit. *Thumbs up* Way to go.

Release party has already happened. Maybe they were already too drunk to call it a "prerelease" party? Or maybe they just don't speak Walknuki.

~J
Walknuki
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Walknuki @ Aug 21 2005, 03:02 PM)
Alternate definition? Books printed out and shiped to stores and the publisher giving permission to sell said books is a release.

Handing a few out at a convention is not.

It doesn't matter if the books are all printed out and sitting collecting dust or if they're sitting in the back of stores but it isn't for sale yet the book isn't released.

Also, thanks for the blind speculation passed off as accurate information.

And incase you're gonna bust my balls on symantics I'm asking about a "General Release" not a "Limited Release" which is what happened at Gencon.

Ah, I see, you're just making up bullshit. *Thumbs up* Way to go.

Release party has already happened. Maybe they were already too drunk to call it a "prerelease" party? Or maybe they just don't speak Walknuki.

~J

I'm making up bullshit while you're admitting to saying shit on speculation? Oh yeah, you're the smart one.

Yeah having a release party doesn't mean the game's been released. Playing some music and dancing around doesn't magically print out and ship books. I'm sure White Wolf had a Mage release party aswell; but, that doesn't release until the 29th.

So you make shit up that's blatantly wrong and instead of admitting to such you try to defend your incorrect statements by attacking me.

Grow up.
Kagetenshi
Every piece of speculation is clearly labeled as such.

~J
Walknuki
So anyway, for anyone who knows what they're talking about when can we expect Shadowrun 4 to be released? Any talk of that happen at Gencon?
blakkie
QUOTE (Walknuki @ Aug 21 2005, 02:46 PM)
So anyway, for anyone who knows what they're talking about when can we expect Shadowrun 4 to be released? Any talk of that happen at Gencon?

Once again read slowly; it has been 'released'.

Now if you are interested in when you can buy it at the local FLGS, then ask it that way. Because that isn't 'release'. That involves shipping and distribution and all manner of stuff. This isn't like the Harry Potter book where they pre-ship 10 million books to stores before release. There simply isn't margin enough to carry that sort of time overhead.

Of course you already have as much of an answer to that as you are likely to get until Monday when the Fanpro people have decompressed from Gencon.
Walknuki
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (Walknuki @ Aug 21 2005, 02:46 PM)
So anyway, for anyone who knows what they're talking about when can we expect Shadowrun 4 to be released? Any talk of that happen at Gencon?

Once again read slowly; it has been 'released'.

Now if you are interested in when you can buy it at the local FLGS, then ask it that way. Because that isn't 'release'. That involves shipping and distribution and all manner of stuff. This isn't like the Harry Potter book where they pre-ship 10 million books to stores before release. There simply isn't margin enough to carry that sort of time overhead.

Of course you already have as much of an answer to that as you are likely to get until Monday when the Fanpro people have decompressed from Gencon.

So no one knows what a release is nor when it will be released. Got it.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Walknuki)
So anyway, for anyone who knows what they're talking about when can we expect Shadowrun 4 to be released? Any talk of that happen at Gencon?

I asked at the booth, and they said they didn't really know because of the whole Gen Con situation... remember, they have to sit in a booth for 10 - 12 hours each day, with very little contact with the "real world", and then run games for 5-7 hours. For 4 days out of the year, it's a different universe here, to be sure. I wouldn't expect them to be frosty until at least 1 day after Gen Con has ended (and it's still going on right now... it should be over within the next couple of hours).
tisoz
When copies were unavailable, the guys were saying it will be in (US) stores in September, about 3 weeks from now. [I kind of assumed they were talking US.]
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