I was typing up an addemdum to a post in the rate the logo thread, and it occured to me instead i was typing up what was good about the SR4 cover. Where it is an improvement over the past covers.

First, i'll start by the problem i have with the SR1/SR2 logo. When i first saw it on the FLGS shelf i look like some sort of stylised cow skull leading me to believe it was some sort of western genre game like Deadlands. In a full stuffed magazine rack display that logo at the top is more promenent than the picture below. That combined with the juxtiposition of the Pat Benitar gunfight is probably a very large factor in my passing it by at first.

It wasn't till i started playing SR that it occured to me that it was likely a Troll skull. A logo that relies on that much [edit]inside[/edit] info to gronk doesn't seem like a good marketing choice. Sadly the faux West Coast native "S" is another example of that, but to my eye isn't quite as bad at that. YMMV.

I'll also say that the SR3 cover art didn't do a lot for me either to pick up the game. As has been stated often here, the "cartoony" look didn't really put the hook on me.

The SR4 cover is far from perfect. But at least it better communicates what the game is about than SR3 did, and it doesn't have the logo clash that SR1/SR2 did. It covers the magic, the guns, the knives, the wireless VR, the tech (hoving upside down toaster, etc.), the dirty urban future (VTOL, rat, biomedical waste box, grafetti), the oriental influence (now with a bonus pronounciation Easter egg!), and the crime. It even manages to hint at stealth using the disabled camera top-right, something that is difficult and that the SR1/SR2 cover didn't do. It doesn't cover the shaman/hermetic angle much (maybe when viewing the book-in-hand that snake skull necklace on the troll will help? still weak i think), though past covers only had the knee-feather and Disneyized leather outfit in SR1/SR2 in that respect and that could have easily been misinterpreted as just another fashion victim statement.

EDIT: There isn't any hint at the oriental influence in the SR1/SR2 cover, is there? No trolls, orks, or dorfs either. Just a elve (because they look good when done up as an extra from Lost Boys?) and a wolfman in the background.

The natural placement of all the characters is really what made the SR1/SR2 cover (the second best thing IMO is the detail in the bottom left pile of garbage). The highpoint of the cover sure wasn't the glittering left hand of Pat Benitar. That was certainly a much weaker suggestion of magic, and given the pop cultural times made it more like a funked Micheal Jackson thing.

EDIT: The SR4 troll's casting, while better, looks a bit too much like a shock glove or something. Didn't anyone tell the artist that magic is -GREEN-! Or at least magic has some extra swirlies and effects that are far to inefficient to be mistaken as some tech device.

If only the posing and placement of the 4 runners and the opponents felt more natural on the SR4 cover i'd be inclined to say it was very good job. It isn't the massive draw in flash, but the cover in total does talk about the SR world with less miscommunication to those that don't know the game.

Saying "it could have been worse" isn't the same as saying "this is a great cover that will really make people excited about the new edition, catch the eye of the unwary newb and drag them into Shadowrun, and generally look really cool."

Blakkie, no matter how much you blindly praise the mistakes of SR4, I don't think there going to give you a free copy.

The SR4 cover is bad. Period. Saying its better than the previous cover is like saying Episode II wasn't as bad as Episode I (which it was). Its still bad. Nothing about it is worth having on your flagship book. The last three source books have all had covers that are far superior, both technically and artistically.

The only reasons I can imagine for going with this for the cover as opposed to something better are,

1. The artist is a friend (or family member) of someone who works for Fanpro.

2. They like it and feel it represents the new Shadowrun (cartoony and simplified)

Now I am not going to say the artist is bad. I am married to an artist, I know they have good work and bad. Sometimes work that initially seems really good turns bad after you look at it enough. I am just saying this piece (and the pieces of art we have seen from inside the book) are not their best work. And the flagship book of the new line should have the best of the best. That is if they want it to succeed.

Mugzy, you didn't read much Cyberpunk 2020, did you? Aside from maybe a bad review?

There is one! major Japanase Con (Arasaka) and that's it.

Therer is an equal sized US corp (Militech) and a host of bigger fish, often from Europe or International (EBM, Raven Microcyb, Orbital Air, SovOil)

The US of Punk is the Paria Nation of the world, the big ones are the Euros, the Japs are the Hyenas

Birdy

Birdy - Guilty. Aside from conversations with players and whatnot, I was under the impression that it was very Japan-ruled. I suppose the guy just liked to use Arasaka an awful lot.

So, I guess I'm looking like the great immortal dork here....

Nah, that would require you to refuse to accept someone else's opinion as at least on par with your own for value

Back to the issue at hand, he cover itself should inspire you to pick up the book, and read at least the backside of it, of what you shall find inside or rather what it is all about.
If a cover dos not get you to grab it in 10 seconds after the cover registered in your frontal lobe, its a) not your think anyway, or rather b) it misses the point completly.

Now, trying as I might I am biased in this as I know what I should expect from SR.
But, lets be objective here, what dos a youngster (meaning starting roleplayer, actual age probably clearly does not indicate that the person is young by age ), who may have not heard of the cyberpunk genre at all think if he sees this cover.

Allright, granted most of the ppl. who ARE interested in RPG have heard about SR, no sweat. Annyhow, the idea of a cover should not be to be an improvement of the last version or to be a NEW cover, just for NEWs-Sake.

So, Iam not sure, is the art by itself horrid? No, I guess not. Is the scene depicted absolutely terrible, from the RP-Univers POV? No, it can happen, and prolly in a good number of game rounds, will.

For a comparison between the older edition covers, well, Frankly, Iam biased, as I do like Paul Bonners art quite some. So, His cover is of course, in my book at least, the supreme cover of them all so far.

Ok, end story, I dun like it (the cover), from the fading from bluish green to the top black to allow the SR "logo" to be in its bluish tone, over the ridiculous big placement of "stylish" but uninspired Fluff (Matrix codes etc.) to the frag-awfull, but thanks to the "logo" enforced, low placement of the same logo, it is somehow heavyhanded and not getting me to pick it up. If I wouldn't know, what it is. Too much wasted space instead of getting the inner Punk/ Gamer anxious to get it IMO.
Maybe they are filling it with something and this is just the prototype, we'll see.

But, well, I am but one and the world is big.

And of course:

IT MUST BE MINE!!!

Darn fan boy Iam.

huzzah

-.-

regards
Daniel

Lets see what the cover implies at a first glance, art aside. Lets assume that our fictional audience knows nothing about Shadowrun at all and found it on a shelf next to Dungeons and Dragons. That seems reasonable to me.

"This book describes the circumstances surrounding a group of people various shapes, sizes and backgrounds attempting to influence the doorway of some sort of monolithic building. Relevent to the circumstances are short men who can manipulate electronic laser images somehow, giant men with horns who shoot lightning bolts, dominatrixes with swords, dudes with sharp pokers coming out of their arms, and eveyone has guns."

Now, clearly, this image leaves much to be desired. But, in broad strokes, I think it accomplishes what it was supposed to. It highlights the wide variety of characters in the setting, it touches briefly on hacking, magic and combat and it has an implication, perhaps murky, that teamwork and tactics are an important part of the game.

Now, I do agree that the characters are goofy looking, the emphasis is all on the wrong things and that the teamwork and tactics of the group pictured are seriously, fatally flawed. My point is that I do not believe that the chosen art hinders the book in any way.

And lets face it, your cover art is not what you're relying on to bring new players into the game. It might be an important part, but I don't think its a significant factor. I mean artistically the 1e D&D books are like two big turds mushed together, but it was still the face that launched a thousand d20 expansions.

Just hop on the 'yes man' train Nerbert, you should be able to get a job at Lucas Arts easy, right after Blakkie.

The cover is EXACTLY what brings in new buyers. Why do you think Book publishers spend so much money on the covers of their books? Because when you are in a book store inundated with other books, a good cover is the only thing that separates the best sellers from the bargain bin.

Fanpro claims that they want people who have never played Shadowrun before to buy this book, this is why they are doing it. That cover will not do it. I wouldn't buy this book if I knew nothing about Shadowrun just Because the cover looks like something my two year old drew.

I am sure since they are going to be pimping it at Origins they will get plenty of feedback, and either it will sell really well, or it wont. Just because I like Shadowrun I hope it sells well. But part of me hopes it doesn't because of the disastrous mistakes made in marketing it.

If the only thing I knew about SR4 was the art and the 'Faqs' you couldn't bribe me to buy it. The art sucks, and in my experience if they didn't put the effort in the art, they didn't put the effort in the rest of the book.

Okay, I stayed out of it but I'll chime in now. I actually quite like the cover. The first thing I saw when I looked at it wasn't the backwards spur, or the dwarf's lips, or what ever other things people have nitpicked about it. What I saw was that it appears that the group was actually attempting a shadowrun. Granted, they're doing it badly, but it's a start.

The 3E book didn't seem that way with it's jumble of figures trying to hang onto a scaffold and some troll with a gun shooting out of frame. The 2E book was better since, again, it looked like a team of people attempting an infiltration but it seemed bland to me at the time, too little action. Course, the 3E and 4E books have, perhaps, too much action in them, but that's an arguement for another thread, I suppose. Never honestly seen a 1E book -- could look one up but that seems to be too much trouble.

All in all, I think that the covers have gotten better. Not necessarily what I would have chosen, but I agree with others in saying tha I think this cover will help to sell the book. It's interesting, it's engaging, and frankly, I like it. Perhaps my mentality is otherwise than the rest of you, but I've always pictured Shadowrun as a fantasy game with technology as opposed to a cyberpunk game with magic, the latter seeming to be the prevalent outlook on the boards. Perhaps there is something there that has caused the divide?

CNET's top 10 dot com failures.

There are some companies in there with most polished marketing strategies in the business. Celebrity endorsements, cute mascots and glitzy advertising aren't enough to save a flawed product or poor timing.

In the short term, yes, the cover of a book might make all the difference between a few individual people. But by the same token, I think there's going to be just as many people who crack the book open for a look just to see what the hell is supposed to be going on. On the long term Shadowrun will stand or fall on its own merits.

The way I see it, the purpose of the cover art is to convey the idea of the book in broad, abstract ways. Personally, I think it succeeds at this, even though the execution leaves much to be desired.

Is that like "Patience is a virtue"? And "If something is worth doing, it is worth doing right".

Cause I think FP needs to think about that.

I just noticed something and I think its cool, the Elf cick that is about to die, she is carrying her Katana correctly, blade up. Thats a little detail that often gets lost. To bad the rest of the picture didn't get done with that kind of attention to detail.

Nerbert: -10 points for failure to understand marketing.

Just because excellent marketing campaigns can't save flawed products doesn't mean that poor to abysmal marketing can't sink excellent products. Flawed products with good marketing can sometimes break even for a while, as well. Marketing with no product (or idea of how to make money on it) is what typified the tech bubble.

~J

I cry for this cover. The street sam's hand is still broken (and he's smiling about it), the ninja-elf is running the wrong way...and ...

Yeah. It's gone to press, so we have to accept that nothing we said mattered.

Actually, I may not be the one you were talking about—my opinion about that refers to the logo, not the cover art. The art just looks cramped, as you said.

Incidentally, it's "grok"

~J

In the world of RPG book covers and technical design, it's above average. Let's get something clear straight off the bat: RPG covers are, on the whole, of poorer quality than regular book covers. This is just a fact of how much money publishers have to work with, the width of the target market, and the general history of RPGs. In all likelihood, more people bought one of Danielle Steele's newer books in one year than will buy all SR books combined for the next ten. That's just the fact of RPG life.

On the high end, look at:

The design for Legend of the 5 Rings 3rd edition. Simple. Elegant. Gets the total point across - this is a game of style, ceremony, and hacking people up with swords.

Tribe 8. Innovative design, mystical - maybe even approaching obtuse - but definitely stylish. Doesn't tell you a thing about the game, but it makes you wanna look inside to find out about it.

Mechwarrior 2nd Edition Special Operations Handbook. This is what a Shadowrun cover really ought to be. Realistic looking folks, engaging in nefarious spy-like activities just out of the sight of unsuspecting guards, using high-tech equipment to do so, in an oppressive cityscape. Nuff said.

Iron Kingdoms. The Iron Kingdoms main book cover is totally awesome, and captures the feel of the game perfectly. And is just plain *good art*.

The Skyrealms of Jorune. I don't expect anyone but me has seen this one, but it depicts Caji Gends recieving his master's Naull, thus becoming the first non-Shantha to be able to shape isho. The art for Jorune was good enough to get put in several of the Spectrums compilations, YEARS after the game was made. (If you can understand that statement... or recognize the words... you are rarer than gold, in having read the single best game with terrible rules ever made.)

In the middling area, we have the vast majority of book covers. Shadowrun 4th is on the high end of this, as is 2nd Edition. These covers, while suffering minor problems, are pretty okay. The technical prowess of 2nd Ed's cover is higher than 4ths, but 4th is still fairly good. 3rd ranks lower due to the 'WTF is this game about now?" factor, combined with a severe "Body proportion what?" factor. Other game covers in this turf include The Red Star, 7th Sea, Cyberpunk 2020, et cetera. Art that is so-so, or good but crippled by a severe cheese factor (See most D&D 2nd Edition covers, Vampire: The Masquerade, etc).

In the low area? Covers for games like Rifts, Call of Cthulhu (most books, anyway), Witchcraft, Immortal, Demon: The Fallen (Scales and bad photoshop filter flame effects? Come on!) et cetera. Stuff that's either incredibly poorly drawn - truly 'my kid did it' - or is extremely sloppy in composition, has wacky color balance, et cetera.
(Why my hate for Call of Cthulhu? Because CoC deserves a forboding book line, not books that look like informational pamplets for vacation spots, insurance, et cetera.)

In conclusion... No, Shadow, the 4th edition cover is neither terrible, nor looks like something your two year old drew, unless your two year old is desitined to become Michaelangelo or something. In which case, props to you. But basically, you don't like the cover. Your total panning of it is unwarranted. The cover is squarely 'average' in terms of RPG covers.

I awlays liked Rifts book covers, especially the Slugorth Slaver on the main softbound book.

I'm a minimalist when it comes to books. Give me a title with gold or silver foil and maybe a logo.

Yeah, the hardcover rifts main book was nice.

now i'm gonna say this, and yes i will admit looking at the cover from the SR3 point of view i dont think it looks very cannon, but hey thats my opinion and according to most here it probably stinks, now i'm gonna defend the SR3 cover for one reason if anything, it engenders a reaction ( or at least it did with me) of "Whats going on with this?" then you open the cover and check it out for a few minutes. i dont have the same feel for the SR4 cover that i did for SR3, even if i didnt know what it was for to begin with i wouldnt have that reaction, maybe its because in the 5 years that i've been playing the game that i have become a little desensitized to anything other than the adrenalyne rush of the run itself. or that 5 more years of reading sci-fi fantasy has got me, "oh ho-hum just another day with someone trying to come up with an interesting book cover." i dont know,

but hey thats my oppinion and as all would suggest it probably stinks

Your opinion probably stinks? Is that bad confidence or contempt for the Dumpshock crowd talking? Hope there´s a splice of irony in there that I just can´t detect. I may be a bit cynical about the enticipated reaction when I post too, but I don´t take it that seriously myself. And I for one think that you´re opinion has a healthy smell to it. Even though I dislike the SR3 cover and always have.

sorry, when i get sarcastic, i get REALLY sarcastic. that final comment was supposed to be dripping with sarcasm

the hidden [sarcasm:dripping] [/sarcasm] tags help in that situation...

Or just a smiley might do it. It may be silly, but they are invaluable when conveying sarcasm or irony in short text messages. Unless you´re posting in you´re native language and the audience is also native speakers, preferably even using the same general dialect... or in some cases of very complex irony, you would have to be a part of the same cirkle of friends. Tricky stuff, it is.

one question I would like to ask is how many people here bought 2nd or 3rd edition off the shelf based even in part on the cover art? I mean in my group every single one of us had the game introduced through word of mouth. In my case it was my friend Mike saying somthing like this: "We play this game called Shadowrun. It's really cool. Gord is playing a mage with an uzi! and I've got a elven decker!" I then made the mistake of asking what a decker was and was treated to a long and rambleing explination that lasted almost 45 minutes and boiled down to, "He's a computer geek who lives in his moms basement." Now that the internet is even more widespread I think we are going to see new players coming in from RPG.net and sites like that far more than impulse buying a 40+ doller hardcover book. Heck all but the best stocked game stores don't even carry Shadowrun devoting most of their space to D20 stuff.

Now do I like the cover? Meh... it could have been better but it could have been a whole lot worse. Really this is just an excuse for nerds to get their panties in a twist and have alpha geek chest thumping contests, sorta like argueing if the starship enterprise could kill the death star. Or if Xena Warrior princess is tougher than 7 of 9.

I got my GF hooked thanks to the critter pages in SR2.

I bought SR2 in part because of the cover art. There were a lot of games on the market, and the fastest way to narrow down the field was to pick one that looked interesting. Well, it looked interesting enough. Would SR4? I'm not sure. When one judges a book by its cover, who knows what will happen.

I bought SR1 based on the cover art alone. I continued to purchase the later books cause I was a fan. If I purchased based on art alone, I doubt I would buy 1 out of every 10 books published.

The new editions primary purpose is to bring in new fans, not please the old ones. The new cover sucks, and I seriously doubt anyone will buy it based on that (like I did with Elmores cover).

Damn right. I picked up the game because the picture screamed to me "I AM COOL, BUY ME, AND LOVE ME."

Of course, had I know how much money I'd spend on the line after that one book (which wasn't exactly cheap for the time), I'd have burned it.

As you say. One man's COOL is anothers ho-hum.

As several people have stated, the primary purpose of the cover of a new ed. is to attract the attention of new players. There are a few things that from a business/marketing standpoint you need, some of this has already been hit on:

1. The picture must be clearly visible: I think that the cover succeeds; it uses several bright colors and is well lit. It may not be too ‘realistic’ to do a job during daylight, but it’s a good marketing decision.

2. The cover should explain the setting within 2 seconds: I think the cover does a good job. After a 2sec scan I could tell it is set in the future (holoscreen and flying cars), that it involves magic (the troll mostly, both his look and the fact that he’s casting a spell, the dwarf’s presence and the human’s mystic looking tattoos implies something magic). And the game revolves around outlaws (they are clearly trying to break into a building).

3. The cover must tell a story: Dynamic, interesting stories attract the attention more that static pictures (it’s an old marketing trick that many forget). Really all pics tell a story (worth a thousand words and all that) but some do a better job than others. I think this one does a good job of quickly telling a story- an eclectic group (probably misfits) is trying to break into a building. For example, if they showed a pic of a sword and a gun it would tell me something about the setting (through symbolism), but no story. Allanon said he didn’t find the cover story too engaging, and I agree with him, but I think it does an adequate job.

4. The art should be cool or pretty: This really isn’t in any marketing list that I’ve seen (though sexy is on some), but it’s always on people’s minds. This is really too subjective to really analyze, but personally I think that the color use is good, I think some chiaroscuro (basically painting emphasizing light and dark) might have been more appropriate for invoking mood, but probably less effective at fulfilling point 1, so I think they made the right choice.

So I think the cover is pretty decent or at least adequate (from a marketing perspective) and hopefully will entice a few new players to join. If you closely analyze the piece you start to see the inconsistencies (particularly if you already understand the setting), but really the cover doesn’t need to satisfy fans or art aficionados, that’s just gravy (again from a business perspective). I wonder what the decision making process is for a cover at a smaller company like Fanpro. BTW everyone has different opinions (particularly with things like art) so I’m NOT trying to say, “everyone should love this, look I proved it!” nor am I a Fanpro fanboy; I just tried to apply a standard, although obviously grossly simplified, business analysis.

Shadowtech's cover sold me on the book and tilted the balance to decide to get involved in roleplaying and Shadowrun in particular. I've been after my relatives to get a game going for years. I left Shadowtech on the table for about an hour prior to a family get together and they were interested. (They knew they had been manipulated when I said there was a new version of the book, M&M, but that cover didn't inspire them in the least.)

So:
1: much of the cover is obscure
2: hints at contents, but possible? (I do not see any meat.)
3: Story? Definitely wtf? interest
4: Definitely cool