I'd like to know if there is anything at all that anyone anywhere has positive to say about SR4.

(EDITED)

IMHO, it's a significant improvement over SR3. Some will like it, some won't. I do like it.

I've heard very good things about the new Matrix system from mfb. Jury's still out, since I don't know if I like to deck like he likes to deck.

~J

Something positive? Yeah, it's only 352 pages!!!

well:

Good art
Good cover
Augmented Reality
Wireless Stuff
Cleaned up magic (Yay!)
Varible health boxes
Technomancers
Combining Riggers/hackers
The matrix is still there!
The Cyber/bio both drawn essence
Book layout (juding by index)

There is so much to like this far. Hopefully more to come

Everything except the art so far.

Yes !
It is a good thing that they are trying to use the same rules for combat, magie, hacking etc... Now of course, we will have to see how things have been done.
It is a good thing to use a fixed TN system. Of course, I can understand the people that are complaining that it won't be that funny and exciting to success from time to time in task/events that were so hard that your character is becoming a legend... On the other hand, it was really ridiculous when even with a TN of 30, a really lucky character was having a success.
This is really great that 3 will be the average rating for an attribute or a skill, as things should have been since the beginning. It was senseless to say that 6 was outstanding, and everybody had 6...
It is great that they are using this 4ed. to lure new client, and thus, focusing again on the world description...
Everything looks great, but, so that everybody on this forum will be happy, I will wait to see... (in fact, I won't... SR4 will rock, this will be the best edition ever written!!!)
LONG LIFE TO SR4

Everything eccept the fonts, the green color, the record sheet and the map.

I have heard positive things about the wireless matrix stuff, and the table of contents for that section looks promising. So I am looking forward to that. I'm hoping that vehicle combat will be better integrated into regular combat, but I've not heard a lot on that. I like the design and layout of the cover (not counting the picture or the font used for "fourth edition"). I'm mildly positive about splitting up attributes. It could work well, and I hope the fact that they did it indicates that they made sure it did work well.

Things I like:

• Otaku losing the "we're only stereotyped kids" limitation.
• An attempt to unify the game mechanics into a single system (though the system they've chosen leaves much to be desired).
• Inclusion of edges and flaws in the core book.
• Splitting damage codes into armor penetration and damage (or, more correctly, labelling them as such).
• Wireless technology and augmented reality.
• Most of the other concepts used in the design process, just not the end product of those concepts.

Just about everything else I've seen, and especially the art, is a big thumbs-down. Enough that I won't be purchasing the core book unless I can find it for next to nothing a few months down the line.

It wil be hardbound....

I like the fact that they've simplified things. I've just started a game of Exalted, so I'm on the fence about the new dice system. But having everything run on the same system is a good idea. Vehicle rules look reasonable (or at least less complex) which is also a welcome change.

They still fade. It's in the TOC, under the Technomancer entry is one called The Fading.

The base mechanic, unifying all the systems, is the main thing that did it for me. SR should have incorporated this a long time ago, in my own opiinion. It's not too difficult to look up things in the current rulebook if you have the time, but I have always foremost seen SR as a game of action and motion. Hard to keep the action in motion when you have to reference several different rules systems in the course of a single combat round.

Wireless technology is sure to have interesting applications, looking forward to seeing how they implement it. Augmented reality has long been a favorite genre twist of mine (always liked the CyberGeneration game), so it's a welcome inclusion in SR4 for me.

I like both the renaming of Edges/Flaws, and the inclusion of Qualities in the main book.

I like the changes made to the damage tracking system.

I like some of the art; I really like the elf girl with the crossbow and freckles. And bell bottoms. She's my favorite so far.

The art is awesome. The rest is very iffy.

So in short, there are lots of things we like, we just don't all share the same opinion of what they are.



I like most of the art, the weapon specialist is a fine picture.

I like the unification of rules sets.

I like that new book smell, too.

If we're going to get into smells...well, I've never bought a P&P game book new, so I can't comment.

Got 'em for Christmas before, though. And they've sat around so long before I opened 'em that they stopped smellin'.

I like everything I have seen so far...even if I never get the chance to run another Shadowrun game, I will get 4E...

Not Fading screws over flavour, not balance.

~J

I don't think they shoulda faded in the first place.

I'll continue not using them, if I can help it, so it won't be an issue for me either way.

If I am reading this right, I looks like youi don't have force ratings for spells anymore. I like that. In all three past incarnations, there was allways some spells that had no real reason to put anything into them. And in second edition, there was no reason for Spellcasting. One less thing for the min-maxers to worry about.

Well, you don't buy spells at Force anymore. Since Magic is variable, you're capped at casting (Magic*2) Force spells.

Stomaching the fact that Otaku and Elves are still around, and will probably never leave, I'm going to have to cast my vote in favor in the restructuring of skill levels.

-RM
"I haven't figured out how to say 'FUCK YOU' politely."

I like the "tabs" sort of thing , like phonebooks, where each section has a dark "tab" to help find things easier.

What I've heard about equipment costs, especially cyberware costs, pleases me greatly.

I like the street level default for the game.

1. They changed some of the long broken aspects of damage. examples light pistols or knives vs unarmed attack.
2. The standard target number removes some of the min-maxing there too. if I shoot 6 round I'll have a target number of 6, so I might as well add two more round and make it 8. (there is no difference between 6-7 or 12-13 and little difference between 7-8 and 14-15).
3. Reaction is no longer tied to intelligence (not every combat oriented character will be an unlikely genius in order to max out inititive)
4. I haven't seen rules for riggers, but they were always way too overpowering with a high level VCR. (all their drones going on the same inititive)
5. Making physads more powerful and could probably hold their own against a street sam of comparable experience.
6. skills plus attributes. This gives a reason to have a skill at a low level. Otherwise you're better defaulting to the attribute.
7. You can no longer beat the shit out of someone on their inititive pass during melee combat.

these are just to name a few

Call me Mr. Negative, but I really like the fact that I don't have to play SR4. And the fact that the roleplaying police won't send their Happy-Fun Teams after me anymore if I do something... "unorthodox" with SR3 material.

To me, this looks like a complete win-win scenario.

Overall, I'm a big fan of everything I've read, the new system is well thought out, easily expandable, and while I haven't had a chance to play but it looks like it will work well. I really like most of the art, and I recommend taking a magnifying glass to the picture of the medkit in the gear section, it is pretty funny. The glitch system is the best implementation of a critical failure system I've seen. The Edge attribute is very cool, more broadly useful than Karma pool was, helps replace some of combat pool. I haven't gone through Technomancers section, so I don't know what I think of that yet. I really like the fact that a hermetic mage can now have a mentor spirit (totem), as it opens the way for some of the classic hermetic ideas based around angels. The choice to make Fire the type of spirits that shamans don't get is a little strange, although it does make some sense. They unbroke the Confusion critter power, which makes me very happy as that was about the most broken thing in the game in 3rd ed. I'd say they did an excellent job designing the game, and I'm glad they scrapped the old system and built it from scratch.

I hate the stupid-fuck fixed TN, I hate the new attribute+skill crap, hate the new attribute limits and skill limits, hate the whole "street level" base setting, hate the new magic system, hate the new Points char creation system and the total lack of Priority char creation system, dont' like the new skill categories, fucking hate the way magic skills were broken up, hate the way Bioware costs Essence, don't like some of the new availability ratings, fucking hate the whole damned Resonance concept (peoples brains can now naturally talk bluetooth and transmitt? BULLSHIT! IMO)

However, the new initiative system intrigues me somewhat, I want to try retro-converting it .

Decking rules, I'm waiting for a PDF to see/read them firsthand before I decide.

Rigging rules, nothing has really come out on the board about it, waiting for a PDF to see/read them firsthand before I decide, might retro convert it if it seems worthwhile.

Combat system, doesn't look like I'm gonna like it that much, since it relies on the FUBAR new system, have to look at it to be sure. The armor vs penetration/stun damage thing may be worth the effort to retro convert but then again it may not. Have to see it first.

Like the lowered cyberware nuyen and essence costs. But the wireless stuff and lack of VCR I'll have to look at to be sure but sounds unappealing to me.

It's just that in my oppinion, SR3 had the best magic system of any RPG I've played or read. There were only a very small number of faults I found with it, but to me by and far it surpassed everything else. It was one those things that fell under the umbrella of "if it isn't broken don't try to fix it" then it was tossed aside, then dissed most rudely, and replaced with something that looks like a total cluster fuck!

Basically it boils down to a matter of personal taste, and everything l liked was changed or thrown out.

While I've always liked the philosophy behind the SR magic systems, the SR3 incarnation was merely a jury rig of a system that was broken since SR1. There are a number of mechanics that simply were too open to abuse (Force 2 Invisibility anyone?), and everything spell-related revolved around maxing out your Spellcasting + Magic Pool. Also, it has the same "Two successes to do anything" problem.

The only major changes that SR4 has are Magic rating being bought as an attribute (a necessary balance change) and the breaking of barriers between all of the traditions (it was coming to that anyway with UMT in SOTA:2064). If anything, magic has become much more organic than before. I like how the new Drain system allows for individual successes (i.e. Any net ODD numbers) to have an effect. Philosophically, the magic system is the same as before.

I want to add that that means those individual spells are broken, not that the magic system is broken.

~J