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danbuter1
Anyone else notice that the Weapons Specialist is a master of unarmed combat? biggrin.gif
Sabosect
Yeah. We sorta determined it's not true.
mintcar
3 points in "close combat skill group" and 2 points in dodge makes 5 appearently very precious skill points in the area. It could by the looks of things be more than just any character can afford themselves, but I wouldnīt give her any titles.
SL James
Close Combat Skill Group probably includes Blades so she can use her two Katanas and Combat Axe, plus the "piece of rebar wrapped in duct-tape", or else why bother?

Dodge is probably most useful in Ranged Combat. Indeed, it is probably critical to have in combat.

But she's a Weapons Specialist, not a Guns Specialist.
Critias
If that horseshit makes a "specialist," I really can't wait to see some conversion guidelines, and find out what most of my characters qualify as.
SL James
A Gardener?
Eldritch
QUOTE (Critias)
If that horseshit makes a "specialist," I really can't wait to see some conversion guidelines, and find out what most of my characters qualify as.

Heh conversion guidelines 1.0: Divide all skills and attributes by 2. If any of them are still above 6, then divide by 2 again (Always rounding down of course). Continue till all are below 6.

Add up value for all cyber and gear. Take 40% and buy all new stuff. eliminate half of your spells. - randomly.

Taker away all adempt powers. re-purchase new powers.

Riggers? Kill 'em - they don't exist anymore. Or merge them with your groups decker - now both players get to share a character.

All brought to you by the power of sarcasm nyahnyah.gif
Tal
I can't help but wonder exactly when Yamaha got out of the motorcycle business and moved into firearms...
JongWK
There's a Yamaha Pulsar taser gun, IIRC.

Anyone's got the translation for the new Yamaha weapon?
Kagetenshi
Cherry blossom snowstorm.

~J
Spookymonster
Hmmm.... explosive flechettes?
blakkie
QUOTE (Tal)
I can't help but wonder exactly when Yamaha got out of the motorcycle business and moved into firearms...

Yamaha is actually a musical instrument company that started up a sideline of motorcycles to take advantage of the high quality machined metal technology they developed making organs.

The musical parent has also developed a lot of electronics techonology which i always assumed had then been spun into the Pulsar, and from there i guess they moved into other sidearms. *shrug*
Sabosect
QUOTE (Spookymonster)
Hmmm.... explosive flechettes?

Nah. It's a miniature grenade launcher, similar to the MGL.
Kagetenshi
It had better be automatic with a sizable RoF, or someone is getting stabbed for that name.

Well, or some other reasonable explanation for it.

~J
tisoz
QUOTE (Critias @ Aug 18 2005, 04:28 PM)
If that horseshit makes a "specialist," I really can't wait to see some conversion guidelines, and find out what most of my characters qualify as.

Obsolete due to superhuman stats. frown.gif

Much like about any pre SR4 module that gives an NPC stat. The meanings behind the stat levels is similar if not the same.
Glyph
You know, I really wish that I had an SR4 NPC to compare this character to. Attributes of 3-4 and skills of 2-4 (except for a 5 for a non-combat skill) really don't seem impressive at all, but what are the stats of the average ganger, Lone Star cop, or corporate security guard?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Glyph)
You know, I really wish that I had an SR4 NPC to compare this character to. Attributes of 3-4 and skills of 2-4 (except for a 5 for a non-combat skill) really don't seem impressive at all, but what are the stats of the average ganger, Lone Star cop, or corporate security guard?

Here are some examples from the book:
Halloweeners Street Gang (Professional Rating 1) - Body 3 Agility 3 Reaction 3 Strength 3 Charisma 2 Intuition 2 Logic 2 Willpower 2, Skills: Clubs 2, Etiquette (Street) 3, Pistols 1, Unarmed Combat 2, Cyber - Hand Razors

Sec Guard (Professional Rating 2) - Body 3 Agility 3 Reaction 4 Strength 3 Charisma 3 Intuition 3 Logic 2 Willpower 3, Skills: Dodge 2, Pistols 1, Shortarms 3 (?? This isn't an actual SR4 skill... I'm guessing it's "Automatics"), Unarmed Combat 2

Lone Star Cop (Professional Rating 3) - Body 3 Agility 4 Reaction 4 Strength 3 Charisma 3 Intuition 4 Logic 3 Willpower 3, Skills: Clubs 3, Law Enforcement 3, Perception 2, Pistols 3, Unarmed Combat 3

Triad Posse (Professional Rating 4) - Body 3 Agility 5 Reaction 4 Strength 3 Charisma 3 Intuition 4 Logic 3 Willpower 4, Skills: Blades 3, Dodge 3, Intimidation 3, Pistols 3, Shortarms 3, Unarmed Combat 3

Red Samurai (Professional Rating 5) - Body 4 Agility 5 Reaction 5(6) Strength 4 Charisma 3 Intuition 4 Logic 3 Willpower 4, Skills: Athletics Group 2, Blades 3, Dodge 4, Etiquette (Corp) 3 (+2), Firearms Group 5, Infiltration 3, Perception 3, Unarmed Combat 4, Cyber: Wired Reflexes 1, Cybereyes with Flare Comp, Smartlink

Tir Ghost (Professional Rating 6) - Body 4 Agility 6 Reaction 5(7) Strength 4 Charisma 5 Intuition 6 Logic 4 Willpower 5, Skills: Athletics Group 3, Demolitions 3, Dodge 4, Firearms Group 5, Perception 4, Stealth Group 6, Unarmed Combat 5, Cyber: Wired Reflexes 2, Flare Comp, Smartlink, Commlink
Penta
I note with interest the distinct lack of cyber in the midrange characters.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Penta)
I note with interest the distinct lack of cyber in the midrange characters.

Well, they are only examples of possible "generics" that you can use, obviously. Just give them a hit of Kamikaze or Jazz, if you want to boost them up a bit.
apple
I hope hahnsoo just forget to write them down. I mean, Cyberware got much cheaper and costs less essence ... and still no one has them? Does now every useful cyberware has an external counterpart? Is a smartlink-lenses as good as a cybernetic smartlink?

SYL

hahnsoo
QUOTE (apple)
Is a smartlink-lenses as good as a cybernetic smartlink?

Well, I can't say much for other mods, but smartlink contact lenses are just as good as having a smartlink component in your eye. At the moment, there doesn't seem to be any reason to have a cyber smartlink other than convenience and the fact that they'd have to rip out your eye to remove it. Then again, it only costs 0.1 Essence and it's an Eye accessory now.
blakkie
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (apple @ Aug 21 2005, 10:25 AM)
Is a smartlink-lenses as good as a cybernetic smartlink?

Well, I can't say much for other mods, but smartlink contact lenses are just as good as having a smartlink component in your eye. At the moment, there doesn't seem to be any reason to have a cyber smartlink other than convenience and the fact that they'd have to rip out your eye to remove it. Then again, it only costs 0.1 Essence and it's an Eye accessory now.

Do implants have an old hardwired option, ergo avoid wireless attacks? That would be the wireless/wired trade off to help explain the benefit to wireless.
Kagetenshi
They've made the Lone Star cops too professional. Someone has clearly forgotten what they get paid (as always).

~J
hahnsoo
QUOTE (blakkie)
Do implants have an old hardwired option, ergo avoid wireless attacks? That would be the wireless/wired trade off to help explain the benefit to wireless.

All versions of the smartlink except for the contact lenses have a wired option (p323). You can also use a skinlink to transmit the data between your Smartlinked weapon and the smartlink display (p318). Using a wired device is secure, but conspicuous, and high security areas will probably flag you for using a wired device, similar to the way you are flagged if you turn your commlink off in such areas.
apple
WHAT? I am conspicious if I turn my handy off? Why is a wired device conspicious? I mean, with an activated commlink I can take pictures and transmit them ... a security-area should prohibit wireless communication.

SYL
Rotbart van Dainig
Because BigBrother can't hear you anymore. Be a good citizen, be online.

External wires are self-explanatory, but: is skinlink is really what it sounds like and does cyberware still communicate via internal wires/nerval system?
Rotbart van Dainig
gna.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
and does cyberware still communicate via internal wires/nerval system?

Couldn't tell ya. It says in the gear section that "assume everything has wireless capability". Including the disposable syringe on p330 or the chisel on p327. *cheesy grin* And lord help us all if you have a wireless Monofilament Chainsaw (p327). If you can't tell, this has become our gaming group's running gag and we've only had the book for 3 days...

Humor aside, I'd assume most pieces of cyberware have SOME sort of wireless component to communicate with WANs, but if the manufacturers were smart, it would probably all be routed through the Commlink device (if one exists) as the central hub for the PAN.

You are correct about the whole Big Brother/security thing, but remember, this is only conspicuous in High Security zones in urban populations. If you were out in the wilderness or a rural town, wireless devices that are turned on would probably be just as conspicuous. It's all about blending in, and you can't blend in if you are doing something different from everyone else.
Rotbart van Dainig
Interesting... well, if there is skinlink, ware should be able to communicate in an similar fashion...
apple
But shouldnīt especially the people living and working in security areas be concerned about their privacy? I mean, a corp-exec does not really want to turn his commlink WLAN on if he working on some very confidential file. And the topresearcher does not want to take the chance that his working place his hacked through his commlink, or?

SYL
hahnsoo
QUOTE (apple)
But shouldnīt especially the people living and working in security areas be concerned about their privacy? I mean, a corp-exec does not really want to turn his commlink WLAN on if he working on some very confidential file. And the topresearcher does not want to take the chance that his working place his hacked through his commlink, or?

But said corporate worker/researcher is NOT going to be working on the research while going through a high security zone (like walking through a metal detector or a security checkpoing), or if he/she is, then it's a private workspace which is shielded from outside WAN interference anyway.

Mr. Coogle walks up and thinks, "I'm going to bumble through this security chokepoint with my PAN off, because I don't want those sneaky guards to look at my very confidential file that I'm going to flaunt about, even though they are supposed to record every face and commlink that passes through this area..."

Again, remember that I said High Security in an Urban Area. If you are just walking down the street, you might get hassled by an overzealous Lone Star (the equivalent of being pulled over for having a broken tail light), but for the most part no one is going to care if your PAN is off.
Glyph
Thanks for the NPC examples, hahnsoo. The weapons specialist doesn't look so bad now - it looks like she can go toe to toe with them until they get to a Professional rating of 4 or so, and a more min-maxed character might even be able to take the Triad or Red Samurai ones on.


I noticed an interesting omission, though. Do NPCs not have an Edge Attribute? If they don't, or if it is reserved for "major" NPCs, then the PCs might actually do even better against the opposition. I got the impression from Bull's topic that the Edge Attribute was fairly powerful.
hahnsoo
Those NPCs are grunts. The book tells you to give them only one condition monitor a piece (thus, both Stun and Physical damage goes on the monitor) and roll Initiative for them simultaneously (same roll for everyone), and they have a shared Edge "pool" equal to the Professional Rating that everyone has to draw from. If one person burns the Edge pool, it's not available for the rest of the grunts. Personally, I would keep the shared Edge "pool" idea, but probably do separate condition monitors and possible separate initiatives depending on how big and silly the encounter was. "Prime Runners" have their own Edge and should be built according to Archetypes or Build Points anyway.
blakkie
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Monofilament Chainsaw (p327).

Apparently someones' twinked out SR3 decker broke into Fanpro's mainframe and did a little data update?

eek.gif notworthy.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
The book tells you to give them only one condition monitor a piece (thus, both Stun and Physical damage goes on the monitor) and roll Initiative for them simultaneously (same roll for everyone), and they have a shared Edge "pool" equal to the Professional Rating that everyone has to draw from. If one person burns the Edge pool, it's not available for the rest of the grunts.

And does it then tell you to call them "Kobolds" and "Goblins" and "Orcs"?

But wait, what if the Red Samurai takes a level of Hacker?

~J
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
But wait, what if the Red Samurai takes a level of Hacker?

Then the world explodes because you put a Sphere of Annihilation into a Bag of Holding while throwing it into a Portable Hole.
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Those NPCs are grunts. The book tells you to give them only one condition monitor a piece (thus, both Stun and Physical damage goes on the monitor) and roll Initiative for them simultaneously (same roll for everyone), and they have a shared Edge "pool" equal to the Professional Rating that everyone has to draw from. If one person burns the Edge pool, it's not available for the rest of the grunts. Personally, I would keep the shared Edge "pool" idea, but probably do separate condition monitors and possible separate initiatives depending on how big and silly the encounter was. "Prime Runners" have their own Edge and should be built according to Archetypes or Build Points anyway.

This sounds ass-stupid to me.

But then I don't think any npc's should be "just grunts". Are those suggestions there to make them easier to whack? My guess is they suggested those things to speed up gameplay and reduce GM paperwork...which to me is irksome for some reason I can't quite articulate.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
But then I don't think any npc's should be "just grunts". Are those suggestions there to make them easier to whack? My guess is they suggested those things to speed up gameplay and reduce GM paperwork...which to me is irksome for some reason I can't quite articulate.

I find it irksome as well, but remember that the target audience is the new GM/new player. Any way that they can help reduce the amount of complexity and paperwork is a welcome addition for those folks. Besides, with a high enough Armor rating, it's all going to be Stun Damage anyway. *evil grin*

I suspect it's a page borrowed from Exalted (much like some other mechanics which shall not be named), as Exalted has a definite "Grunts and Big Boss" theme in their game layout.
apple
You can even take Feng Shui and its "named character"/"mooks"-system.

SYL
SL James
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 21 2005, 04:00 PM)
Those NPCs are grunts.  The book tells you to give them only one condition monitor a piece (thus, both Stun and Physical damage goes on the monitor) and roll Initiative for them simultaneously (same roll for everyone), and they have a shared Edge "pool" equal to the Professional Rating that everyone has to draw from.  If one person burns the Edge pool, it's not available for the rest of the grunts.  Personally, I would keep the shared Edge "pool" idea, but probably do separate condition monitors and possible separate initiatives depending on how big and silly the encounter was.  "Prime Runners" have their own Edge and should be built according to Archetypes or Build Points anyway.

This sounds ass-stupid to me.

But then I don't think any npc's should be "just grunts". Are those suggestions there to make them easier to whack? My guess is they suggested those things to speed up gameplay and reduce GM paperwork...which to me is irksome for some reason I can't quite articulate.

No kidding. This is the polar freaking opposite of my NPCs.

Cripes.
SL James
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 21 2005, 08:01 AM)
Tir Ghost (Professional Rating 6) -  Body 4 Agility 6 Reaction 5(7) Strength 4 Charisma 5 Intuition 6 Logic 4 Willpower 5, Skills: Athletics Group 3, Demolitions 3, Dodge 4, Firearms Group 5, Perception 4, Stealth Group 6, Unarmed Combat 5, Cyber: Wired Reflexes 2, Flare Comp, Smartlink, Commlink

Am I alone in thinking it weird that the archetypal Tir Ghost is a cyber warrior and not an Adept? Must be because the Tir hates magic.
FrostyNSO
I was suprised with just athletics 3...since, you know, special forces operators in the real world are only so-so athletes.
Sabosect
Okay, I'm trying my best not to laugh at these NPCs and their rules.

Yeah, go ahead and throw them at me with one condition monitor. It just makes it easier for my rocket launchers to kill the group.
blakkie
QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 21 2005, 05:14 PM)
No kidding. This is the polar freaking opposite of my NPCs.

Cripes.

So you like to, or at least are willing to do the paper work created by putting all NPCs in the "prime runner" catagory. It is the proto-typical GMing style choice what you include as mooks and what you fully flesh out. *shrug*
Kagetenshi
But encouraging mooks reshapes the feel of the game dramatically.

~J
Sabosect
Agreed. Instead of "Holy hell, those are a bunch of security guards run!" or "A group of security guards? Time for grenades." you get "Meh. A bunch of security guards. Okay, shoot the one in the middle and we'll move on when they all magically fall down dead."
blakkie
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 21 2005, 05:43 PM)
Agreed. Instead of "Holy hell, those are a bunch of security guards run!" or "A group of security guards? Time for grenades." you get "Meh. A bunch of security guards. Okay, shoot the one in the middle and we'll move on when they all magically fall down dead."

I think you misunderstand having a single condition box. It, as i'm reading his post, is talking about each guard having both their Stun and Physical damage applied to one set of monitor boxes.

It doesn't mean 3 guards sharing a single condition monitor.
blakkie
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Aug 21 2005, 05:41 PM)
But encouraging mooks reshapes the feel of the game dramatically.

~J

.... which is controled by the GMing style. *shrug* The GM, hopefully with player feedback, sets the mood. The book just layouts out the slider to push up or bring down the NPC stat detail.

EDIT: BTW this isn't terrible different from what i did with on the fly NPCs that came into play when the players went off on one of their infamous tangents. Only some of them didn't even have that much detail.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Sabosect)
Agreed. Instead of "Holy hell, those are a bunch of security guards run!" or "A group of security guards? Time for grenades." you get "Meh. A bunch of security guards. Okay, shoot the one in the middle and we'll move on when they all magically fall down dead."

Oh, no. Each individual NPC has their own condition monitor, you just don't bother with determining Stun or Physical damage... you just mark everything in Physical. It cuts out several steps (including the armor penetration check) from the equation.
Sabosect
Dunno for sure. To me, it can be possibly interpreted that they share it per group. But, meh, it's neither here nor there and doesn't matter.

Edit: The above was corrected in a post made while I typed this one.

What does matter is the attitude. Grunts are throwaway characters. Most GMs will treat them as a simple case of something that has to be killed instead of a challenge. For me, you might have to kill that security guard, but he's going to put up a fight, use tactics, and call for backup (which is why you use a decker to cut comms). Grunts are more like how street gangs are treated by most of the SR groups I know of. You simply kill them and move on. Basically, they are the goblins of SR.

As it stands, I don't want to play with a group that views security guards as so expendable without a good reason for it (like, say, the group is playing UCAS Special Forces).
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