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FlakJacket
Are there any published stats for the type of body armour/vests that you generally see police SWAT teams waring - the large black chunky kind with the massive plates? Tried looking through the books and all the ones that looked promising had concealabilty ratings - and with the size of these things not very likely smile.gif - and then it seemed to jump straight to security armour which is described as a full bodysuit. Thanks.
Fix-it
medium or heavy security armor just about fits your description, IMHO.

It doesn't even HAVE a concealibility.
Shadow
I don't think the designers though about it. In the shadows there isn't much use for that kind of armor. You could always create it your self. I haven't seen it but you could peruse Rayguns website for ideas or somethign that would fit the bill.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
I don't think the designers though about it. In the shadows there isn't much use for that kind of armor.

Considering we have stats for Riot Shields, there is a good chance they thought of it wink.gif

Medium Security Armor, IMO.
SaintPatrick
Look for the old "Lone Star" source book from 1994. There's easily updated stats for the armor and lots of info on SWAT teams and FTRs Fast Response Teams which runners are far more likely to encounter. Lone Star and Knight Errant have switched places on who's more effective. The other groups like Thugs with guns are more violent and dumbed down versions.
Raygun
In the real world, it's usually NIJ Level IIIA (will stop .44 Magnum 240 grain SJHP @ 1400 fps) with Level IV plates over the vitals, front and back (will stop 30-06 166 grain AP @ 2850 fps). I treat IIIA as 7/5 and IV as 9/7 hardened.
Fortune
Would that be the equivalent to the armor worn by Blade's crew in Blade 2?
D.o.d.d.
Raygun, that's 9/7 hardened for the whole combo, right? 'Cause I just can't see those two values combined. (Not to mention the penalties...)
Ed_209a
QUOTE (Fortune)
Would that be the equivalent to the armor worn by Blade's crew in Blade 2?

Oh man, superhuman strength, and no body heat to speak of.

Talk about the perfect situation for body armor...

Rev
QUOTE (Raygun)
In the real world, it's usually NIJ Level IIIA (will stop .44 Magnum 240 grain SJHP @ 1400 fps) with Level IV plates over the vitals, front and back (will stop 30-06 166 grain AP @ 2850 fps). I treat IIIA as 7/5 and IV as 9/7 hardened.


I don't know that I buy that riot armor stopping a light machine gun cold (which 9 hardened would do, right?).
Ed_209a
Only part of the armor is Level IV. Imagine something about the length and width of a school textbook on your chest and back. Only those parts can withstand rifle-caliber rounds. The rest can stop heavy SMG fire.

BitBasher
From what I have seen them in Riot armor and SWAT armor are not really the same thing.

And while im at it, the reinforced armor sections dont seem to be just center torso but reinforcing their torso on their leading side and along the forward facing forearms. When you hold a rifle with your right hand and point it your right forearm underside and left forearm underside are what is facing your target, reinforcement there is what i'm talking about. It seems to be a strap on layer and thicker than the rest, but I have never talked to them about it, so that may just be IIIa, it just looks a lot thicker than the rest.

damnit, Safariland used to have a picture of what I'm talking about and now I can't find it.
Siege
http://www.tacticalshop.com/product.asp?0=...208&1=324&3=620

In SR terms, Riot armor tends to be more Impact heavy, rather than Ballistic. The idea being in a riot, you're more likely to get bludgeoned and pelted with bricks and bottles than getting shot.

SWAT units tend to wear single chest pieces to cover center mass with the intention of stopping incoming fire and not protecting against a wild melee.

To confuse the issue, smaller departments that can't afford "proper" riot gear will kit their officers in what they have on hand, usually SWAT-issue vests since some protection is better than nothing and they probably get a bulk discount when buying. Additional accessories can include: shields and gas masks, although batons are invariably standard issue.

-Siege
Kurukami
Yeah, "proper" riot gear tends to look a lot bulkier and more impressive. I can definitely see it being, if not more impact protection, nearly equal to ballistic protection. Just take a look at these two pictures I snagged from the web:

http://home.comcast.net/~kurukami/images/p...land/biggun.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~kurukami/images/p...ers_orjg114.jpg
Ed_209a
Nice pics Kurukami.

Looks like tactical catcher's gear. smile.gif

Seriously, though I think Kuru has it dead-on. The ballistic rating would be very low, but the impact rating would be very high. In the 2060s, riot cops now have to worry about orcs and trolls with baseball bats, not just angry teens.
hobgoblin
hmm, heavy security with helmet is 8/7, and given that the human avarage in sr is 3 it will work nicely as riot gear, add a shield and some stun weapons, maybe gasmasks and start popping neuro-stun and whats not at the crowd...
Ed_209a
Heavy security armor?

Your typical threat range is from 4m Stun (Avg Human with bat) to 8m stun (Avg Troll with bat). Given the demographics, your range will more likely run 4m to 6m.

An impact rating of 4 will keep that off just fine.

If the crowd starts pulling guns, loitering drones with racks of gas grenades and SMGs firing gel rounds quickly convince the crowd that is a bad idea.
Siege
Not to mention that rolling out heavy security armor is pretty damned expensive and, although not really reflected in game mechanics, taxing to the officers wearing it.

They may have some units in heavy armor on stand-by in case something gets nasty but I think it unlikely it would be deployed in force.

Additionally, sec armor makes a nastier statement in general than riot gear and most riots probably will have at least some media coverage.

Although I suppose it will ultimately depend on where the riot happens and who happens to be rioting.

Sorry, rambling just a tad.

-Siege
Ed_209a
Security armor implies you want to kill a crowd. Riot armor implies you want to control and restrain a crowd.

Big difference to the media.
Fygg Nuuton
thats why you put smiley faces on the vest!
BitBasher
...And Vendetta Armor implies you track down and kill their families... grinbig.gif
Siege
You just know someone out there is making custom armor in the form of fantasy-medieval replete with horns, skulls and assorted knick-knacks.

Maybe some of the richer go-gangs?

Sorry, armor-tangent.

-Siege
Raygun
QUOTE (Fortune)
Would that be the equivalent to the armor worn by Blade's crew in Blade 2?


I don't remember exactly what it looked like, but if it looked like the kind of stuff that police tactical teams wear, then yes.

QUOTE (D.o.d.d)
Raygun, that's 9/7 hardened for the whole combo, right? 'Cause I just can't see those two values combined. (Not to mention the penalties...)


I use a hit location system that makes defining the two different kinds of armor a bit more practical. The 9/7 hardened armor plate covers a relatively small area. Like Ed-209a said, about the same area as a textbook over your vital organs, front and back. They also weight quite a bit. If you want to use Shadowrun's full-body-coverage armor rules, I'd say use Heavy Security Armor (7/5) with a helmet (8/7), like hobgoblin said.

I guess I should also mention that the rest of the body armor that SWAT teams usually wear covers the upper body only, occasionally the groin as well. Ballistic helmets are also common. This is because body armor tends to resrict movement and the ability to move quickly means that you can better avoid being hit altogether. Also, the vast majority of hits to extremities are non-fatal, assuming that the officer gets medical attention quickly, which they usually do.

QUOTE (Rev)
I don't know that I buy that riot armor stopping a light machine gun cold (which 9 hardened would do, right?).


The kind of armor worn during riots and the kind that tactical teams wear is different. I think that's been explained pretty well by Seige and Kurukami already.

NIJ Level VI plate armor is designed to stop conventional armor piercing bullets used in the 30-06 and 7.62x51mm NATO rounds (except M993) and anything else up to that. So yes, plate armor can and will stop light machine gun fire outright. There is a point at which any armor will fail, however. And again, that plate armor covers a relatively small area. The flexible ballistic fabric body armor that makes up the majority of tactical body armor will not stop most rifle rounds.
Phasma Felis
QUOTE
I guess I should also mention that the rest of the body armor that SWAT teams usually wear covers the upper body only, occasionally the groin as well. Ballistic helmets are also common.


So, armored vest with plates plus security helmet, then? (6/4) Or does it cover the arms as well, making it an armor jacket plus security helmet? (7/5)

In Shadowrun, a department with enough money would probably add formfit as well, bringing the total to 8/4 or 9/5 after layering.

Siege
Keeping in mind that Shadowrun doesn't use a location-hit system, sure.

Keep in mind though that layering armor is (generally speaking) a bad idea because it impedes movement as per Raygun's observation on the armoring of SWAT units.

The idea that form-fitting armor doesn't count as a layer is valid by canon but lacks a certain practicality. Have you ever watched hockey players suit up?

Can you imagine spending all day in that kind of kit? Not to mention running after suspects or moving quickly.

I would probably kit most officers out in a basic armor jacket and helmet (1/2), allowing for the more "over the top" aspect of Shadowrun. Anything else would just suck while standing in the sun, directing traffic.

Granted, I might see SWAT or similar special response units investing in form fitting armor if they weren't already issued plate sec armor.

-Siege
Phylos Fett
I know that the LS Sourcebook lists SWAT teams as wearing either Armoured Jackets or Armour Vest w/Plates. They don't wear the Helmets like the regular cops do (for some reason). Either way, 5/3 or 4/3. Add the Helmet (+1/+1), and it is still cheap armour for cops. But, as has been said, I would still throw in FFBA-3 for the extra +2/+0. 8/4 for a SWAT officer, and 2,000¥ in Armour is not too unreasonable. Of course, this might mess with their efficiency, and could be the reason why they weren't given Helmets...
Dark Schneider
If you want to see some cool designs for SWAT (and ESWAT, Extra Special Weapons and Tactics) gear, you probably ought to check Shirow's stuff in Appleseed.

There are various levels and configurations for armor, depending on the task at hand. In the manga, Olympus Police uses P- and K-codes to rate the level of complexity and "sensitivity" of each piece of equipment, security areas and situations.

For one, K-3 is the identifier meant for severely restricted items, like the dark gray Gasium/Garthim light type Protector suit most ESWAT operatives tend to wear in the course of normal operation.

Strictly classified gear, such as the Guges-D landmate, goes way up to the scale. And for those keeping the score at home, there's also a model of medium powered armor called ORC...

-- D.S.
hobgoblin
ah shit, i see now that the post i made was for riot control, not swat smile.gif my bad...
Ed_209a
QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton)
thats why you put smiley faces on the vest!

I once played in a group with a Troll tank-twink who had a bullseye tattooed on his chest with the caption "Just try it".

I think it was inspired by a similar character in the HoL RPG. (Sorry, don't know the ascii code for the funny letter O.)
Siege
Another problem with form-fitting armor --> it has to be tailored to the individual user which is expensive and demands the wearer not change shape to any great degree.

In the bulk-purchasing mindset, it's probably not a great idea unless you have elite units that may very well be worth the additional cost.

-Siege
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