(back to work -- stickies are next)

I think I'll have to leave the other stickies until tomorrow. Magic is done, in any case ... still have to check a couple of main forum threads to confirm.

Fine, fine. DNA-specific nanoviruses. (Hey, if a nanovirus can be handwaved to crash the Matrix, mine can be handwaved to have FastJack's DNA.)

Sheesh. You have no sense of fun.

Well, the point sort of is that it's difficult to do.

So where do you get his DNA from?

And how do you reproduce the viruses if they only feed on his DNA?

And how do you spread thema cross the earth making sure you have enough to reliably get him, but without his finding out?

And...

(The point is, this ain't DnD. Legends are legends cuz they've got brains and don't just sit in their lairs all day eating adventurers and saving up treasure.)

In retrospect, I probably should have reserved more "spaces" at the beginning of this thread. Could start a new one, divide up the categories into different posts -- yes/no?

Yes, please do. And kindly ask dumpshockers to respect it to be read-only, so that no arguments about whether SWAT or Marine dicks are longer interrupts this new thread.

As drakes are not included in character creation can some one give me an idea as to cost in BP? Am trying to convert characters from 3rd to 4th.

Then whats the deal with Shamans and Hermetics? Have read the descriptions as posted and there does not seem to be any difference any more. Both types can take mentor spirits, which are replacing totems. Both can summon unbound and bound spirits/elementals. The only thing I can see is that shamans can summon spirits and hermetics can summon elementals or has that been changed as well?

Also whats the deal with armor? Have seen posts saying it changes physical to stun and that it adds dice to the body resistance roll? That right?

If these have been covered in other threads I did not find them or felt they were incomplete answers so any help is appreciated,
Thanks

Shamens can now summon spirts and elementals (Except fire). They can vanish with the next sun rise/set(Unbound) or Be around till services are used (Bound). Mages can summon elementals on the fly (Like shamens used to summon spirits) if they choose.


This is more than a mechanical change - it is a setting change.

A mage can now have a totem-like mentor spirit - that provides penalties and bonuses. Just like totems. This also is setting and mechanical. (And as I mentioned, I don't have a problem whith this one - it's kinda cool) Yeah, instead of Dog whispering in his ear, he's got a little Imp, or the Spirit of some long dead mage form the 4th age.

The in game fic has always indicated that NAN nations always distrusted hermetic mages because they had no guiding spirit. With the replacment of totems with mentor spirits which shamans and hermetics can get this pretty much goes out the window does it not? It becomes more of a case of does the mage have a mentor spirit regardless of belief or path?

Mentor spirit of the dragon. Ala the old Exalaber movie with the crome dome wearing Merlin, lol

Okay, I have finally read through the vast majority of SR4 (ignored some of the fiction material, nice touch up but overall the individual sections after the "Timeline" are a waste IMO). I finally have the following to throw out for opinions.

A) First and Foremost - the editing for the SR4 book sucks. I really do not feel that I can come even close to explaining the true width and depth of my opinion in this area. This is more than just typographical stuff, there are so many areas where material seems to just be missing or was not adjusted. I realize there are always some room for error ... we are all human. With that in mind however, I have to say that I'm forking over $35 for a book that while bound and looks externally/superficially very nice, is filled with enough reading/grammatical problems as to make the book more trial than testimonial.

B) I still think someone either a) created a set of skills then forgot to switch the wording in the section or b) created the skills after-the-fact and really had no intention of being clear in defining their usage. I am referring to the "Tasking" Skill Group that covers the Technomancer Compiling, Decompiling and Registering/Tasking. The skills exist, but are not used in the book anywhere ... even under the "Technomancer" section.

C) I must admit, that while it is a significant change over the pre-SR4 rules, the new dice system will probably make things faster with regards to in-game dice play. The new system however is quite literally sprinkled with inconsistent applications. An example of this is the Combat Sense spell in the new book. It is now an Opposed Spell against target(s) within it's area. For a system that was to make things faster/simpler, it actively makes some things more difficult.

D) I was defending the new Hacking (Rigging) rules the other day here on these forums. And, insofar as the character playability I will still defend them. The new rules do make it easier and more cost effective to be a Rigger. However, keeping that in mind the tools by which the Rigger(s) of the Shadowrun world have to perform their tasks are NOT helpful. Vehicle rules are highly speculative at best. The idea of having a "Walking" and "Running" rates for vehicles and then a seperate "Speed" rating is but one example of very poor judgement. I understand and respect the desire to have mechanics that work for characters as well as equipment, but this is not a good way of doing it. The most glaring example literally becomes the Banshee (Panzer). It has an Accel of 50/250 (Walking/Running) and a Speed of 1000. To raise/climb ones speed above the Running rate, you make the Handling test with each Hit adding 5 to the movement of the vehicle. There are 750 points of movement difference between Speed and "Running Rate". That would mean 150 hits. Talk about an "Extended Test".

E) I at first was starting to be pleased that Body/Armor for Vehicles would be increased in some manner as compared to previous gaming editions. The problem arose however when a couple of the players here and myself starting to try to look for comparisons between pre-SR4 and SR4 vehicles. We could not find a way to convert vehicles. After failing at mulitple attempts at performing this, we started to compare to weapons and found the problem was spread beyond this area. Sniper Rifles for instance could not on a "flat success" (meaning one hit from the shooter, no successes from the defender) outright kill a target. They simply lacked the Damage Value to pull it off. When we compared to other weapons, the problem continued.

F) I have been told by one of the new rising GM's in our group that the Cyberware/Bioware section has significant problems. In many instances, the implants do not allow for their maximum usage for those characters who have maxed out their attributes naturally. I have also been told that while the new cyberware often comes with "Capacity Unit" information (something I applauded when I first read it), the ratings are too arbitrary in places. I'm working on an examples list and expect some from the other member of our group here shortly.

G) Rules vs. Guidelines. This is the part that gets me. Are we, as a group of players/participants treated as an average whole, so mentally light/"hairbrained" that we have to have a Core Rule Book that leaves the majority of the harder decisions up to the GM/Players? I realize that certainly the GM/Players ultimately determine what will be happening in their gaming experiences, but at the same time the rules in the book fail to cover what to me is a more effective gammit/range of determiners. With all the space used for examples, it would seem to me to be more worthwhile to give specific examples for more areas than to sit down and give all the additional "fluff" at the beginning of each chapter/section.

H) I realize that the developers goal was to make a new set of rules that were more streamlined and at the same time more "downpowered" than previous editions. But at the same time, I think it would be a very poor selection of judgement to have a set of rules set for a specific power level only to turn around and continue to put forth books/materials that were obviously more "power/resource specific" than a group of "street runners" could ever hope to participate in. All of the "Shadows of..." books are excellent sources of new material, new destinations, new backdrop ... much of which is simply beyond the power and/or scope of the new game mechanics to become involved in. I believe my favorite statement that was made by Rob B. at the "What's Up" seminar at Gencon Indy '05 was "you won't be going against anything naval category". Excuse me??? What happened to Cyberpirates such as those mentioned in the "Shadows of Asia" book.

I guess I would really like to see signs that the development team/staff is going to remember they are working on an entire "World" instead of just one set of "campaigns". I guess to me that is the difference between a "Game Developer" and a "Game Master".

I hate to say it but I think the new shaman/mage divide is better. Setting wise its way off for me, because I've been around since SR1 and the first novel. But if I'd never played SR, or read the older novels the new mechanical differences between mages and shamans summoning and mentor spirits for mages would likely seem better.

Quite frankly I think setting wise the lack of grounding in 3e bothered me more.

Yeah, I f I look at it (And I Am) as a new game - some of the stuff is pretty cool. But as a continuation of SR - no - it doesn't work for me.

In regard to living legends, there is one thing a noticed that is odd.

Correct me if I have the spell defense rules wrong, but it seems that Harlequin can easily be taken out by a group of 0 karma mages.

The maximum number of dice Harly can have in counterspelling is 9, if he specializes. His maximum willpower is 6 wiithout 'ware.

The maximum spellcasting dice a starting character can throw is 9, if he specializes. The maximum magic of a starting character is 6.

Assuming that these mages use BP to bond sustaining foci for improved reflexes, spend edge to go first, and add edge to their initiative rolls so that the dice explode, they can reasonably get in the first hit and overcat their stunbolts at force 12. Harly can only defend as well as they attack so the outcome is a matter of luck.

So someone can kill Harlequin? Comeon...the adventure book stated he couldn't be killed....

Woot! Another point for SR4

If he needed a Detect Nuclear Weapon spell, I would say he had bigger problems. He was standing right beside the nuke when it went off. Tis not my fault the very powerful and extremely important artifact he was looking for was left there by the players.

I'd assume any reasonable immortal magician with high double-digits magic and demonstrated teleportation powers is going to have an anchor focus set up. Force 10 Detect Nuclear Reaction / Force 30 Teleport to Secret Base at the Bottom of the Mariana Trench.

It's from Earthdawn, and is available to player characters in that game.

~J

Thanks! Well, the EarthDawn universe had a much higher magic level, if I am not mistaken, so I guess that would make sense. It's probably gonna be another couple hundred or thousand years before SR reaches that level, right?

Hmmm... Not relevant to the thread at all. I'll quit rambling.

Oh, it may only be a couple hundred years. Some things sent the cycle careening around a bit, all in all. Regardless, that technique is hardly on the verge of rediscovery—we may as well talk about the Scourge as about anyone who didn't learn it straight from an IE using it now.

~J

What can be used can be discovered.

Can't free spirits effectively do that for you. Obviously not anchored, but with Gate take your meat astral and then Gate you back to the meat world whereever you have moved to. Or are they limited to bringing you back to the meat where you left?

Meant, only, that the current Shadowrun magic level can't be used as an excuse for non re-discovery.

It can indirectly. Magic in Shadowrun is relatively new, and as such magic-related research not supported by Great Dragons/IEs can only draw on a very limited amount of previous research. Moreover, it is possible that a heightened magic level might increase the chances of discovery by making it easier to achieve. You are correct, however, that if the current magic level were somehow maintained for a greatly sustained time this would not prevent the discovery of this technique, though it might hinder it.

~J