Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: SR4 attempted summary
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Blacken
QUOTE (nezumi)
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Aug 23 2005, 03:14 PM)
Age old rule...if you give it stats, it can be killed.

Maybe in D&D. Round here, legendary characters are smart enough not to post their home addresses in the white pages. Good luck finding him to kill him in the first place.

Tacnuke. Seattle. QED.
Talia Invierno
(back to work -- stickies are next)
Talia Invierno
I think I'll have to leave the other stickies until tomorrow. Magic is done, in any case ... still have to check a couple of main forum threads to confirm.
Derek
QUOTE (Rolemodel)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 23 2005, 02:32 PM)
But in the scheme of things military, as a group they aren't really as elite as they like to tell themselves.

Understatement of the century.

However, such a subscription is required to play the role of expendable cannon-fodder. A necessary role, naturally, and one that commands a great deal of respect to fufill...

...But definitely not respect culled from individualized badassitude.

-RM

ohplease.gif
nezumi
QUOTE (Blacken @ Aug 23 2005, 03:48 PM)
QUOTE (nezumi @ Aug 23 2005, 03:47 PM)
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Aug 23 2005, 03:14 PM)
Age old rule...if you give it stats, it can be killed.

Maybe in D&D. Round here, legendary characters are smart enough not to post their home addresses in the white pages. Good luck finding him to kill him in the first place.

Tacnuke. Seattle. QED.

That'll be a whole lotta good if he's living on an off-shore platform off the coast of England. Or, you know, if he's not in the few square miles you happen to nuke. Or if he's in a bunker. Or if he...

You get the idea. Using a tac nuke on Seattle in an attempt to kill Fastjack is like throwing darts in the dark. Who knows what you'll hit (and you're likely to upset a few people in the process).

Now if you were to destroy the ENTIRE PLANET, you'd probably get him, but you're pretty legendary yourself at that point.
Blacken
Fine, fine. DNA-specific nanoviruses. (Hey, if a nanovirus can be handwaved to crash the Matrix, mine can be handwaved to have FastJack's DNA.)

Sheesh. You have no sense of fun. frown.gif
nezumi
Well, the point sort of is that it's difficult to do.

So where do you get his DNA from?

And how do you reproduce the viruses if they only feed on his DNA?

And how do you spread thema cross the earth making sure you have enough to reliably get him, but without his finding out?

And...

(The point is, this ain't DnD. Legends are legends cuz they've got brains and don't just sit in their lairs all day eating adventurers and saving up treasure.)
hyzmarca
QUOTE (nezumi)
Well, the point sort of is that it's difficult to do.

So where do you get his DNA from?

And how do you reproduce the viruses if they only feed on his DNA?


Getting his DNA isn't necessary. You just need to get DNA that is reasoably similar to his. Siblings, parents, cousins, any realitive will do. The closer the relation, the less collateral damage.

Also it doesn't have to feed off his his DNA alone. It could replicate within the bodies of every living creature on earth, spread through touching, sneezing and intimate bodily fluid exchange. It would only go into kill mode when it encounters DNA sequences that are unique to his family.

Of course, they'll have to overcome the rating of any DNA masking he has but it has an unlimited ammount of time to do that.

Of course, you can always kill legends with your shinny Deus ex Machina. Why create a nanovirus to kill Fastjack when it is so much more fun to summon up Jesus Christ: Vampire Hunter to kill Martin de Vries?
Talia Invierno
In retrospect, I probably should have reserved more "spaces" at the beginning of this thread. Could start a new one, divide up the categories into different posts -- yes/no?
hermit
Yes, please do. And kindly ask dumpshockers to respect it to be read-only, so that no arguments about whether SWAT or Marine dicks are longer interrupts this new thread. wink.gif
Stormdrake
As drakes are not included in character creation can some one give me an idea as to cost in BP? Am trying to convert characters from 3rd to 4th.

Then whats the deal with Shamans and Hermetics? Have read the descriptions as posted and there does not seem to be any difference any more. Both types can take mentor spirits, which are replacing totems. Both can summon unbound and bound spirits/elementals. The only thing I can see is that shamans can summon spirits and hermetics can summon elementals or has that been changed as well?

Also whats the deal with armor? Have seen posts saying it changes physical to stun and that it adds dice to the body resistance roll? That right?

If these have been covered in other threads I did not find them or felt they were incomplete answers so any help is appreciated,
Thanks
NeoJudas
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 23 2005, 02:47 PM)
Oh, that is where they are?  That isn't nearly as bad as giving there full stats. I thought Fanpro had published a full set of attributes, skills, gear, qualities, etc.  One little peak at the skill number ain't no big thing, as long as they are at the rocking top.

Oh, no. The only place where a full list of spells/skills/etc. are published for any Prime Runner is in the "Prime Runner" sourcebook. Michael Sutherland is there, along with some other interesting folk.

Yeah, and they also use "Michigan Avenue" as a basis for comparison for terrain mods to. Nice to know they can come up with examples so city/societally specific.<sarcasm>
Eldritch
QUOTE (Stormdrake)
As drakes are not included in character creation can some one give me an idea as to cost in BP? Am trying to convert characters from 3rd to 4th.

Then whats the deal with Shamans and Hermetics? Have read the descriptions as posted and there does not seem to be any difference any more. Both types can take mentor spirits, which are replacing totems. Both can summon unbound and bound spirits/elementals. The only thing I can see is that shamans can summon spirits and hermetics can summon elementals or has that been changed as well?

Also whats the deal with armor? Have seen posts saying it changes physical to stun and that it adds dice to the body resistance roll? That right?

If these have been covered in other threads I did not find them or felt they were incomplete answers so any help is appreciated,
Thanks

QUOTE
All full magicians can conjure earth, air, water, and spirits of man. That's 4. Hermetic can conjure fire spirits while shaman can conjure spirits of beasts.


so, yeah - that has been changed as well. Shamens can summon earth, air, and water elementals/spirits + Spirts of beast.

Mages get arth, air, and water elementals/spirits + Fire spirits/elementals.

They've blurred the line between the two to almost nothing.
Bandwidthoracle
QUOTE (Eldritch)
so, yeah - that has been changed as well. Shamens can summon earth, air, and water elementals/spirits + Spirts of beast.

Mages get arth, air, and water elementals/spirits + Fire spirits/elementals.

They've blurred the line between the two to almost nothing.

I must respectfully disagree.

However, I would agree they've blurred the line to almost nothing on a mechanical level.
In terms of roleplaying they are still worlds apart, if they aren't that seems more like a roleplaying problem, which is not something that Fanpro can really enforce.
Eldritch
Shamens can now summon spirts and elementals (Except fire). They can vanish with the next sun rise/set(Unbound) or Be around till services are used (Bound). Mages can summon elementals on the fly (Like shamens used to summon spirits) if they choose.


This is more than a mechanical change - it is a setting change.

A mage can now have a totem-like mentor spirit - that provides penalties and bonuses. Just like totems. This also is setting and mechanical. (And as I mentioned, I don't have a problem whith this one - it's kinda cool) Yeah, instead of Dog whispering in his ear, he's got a little Imp, or the Spirit of some long dead mage form the 4th age.
Stormdrake
The in game fic has always indicated that NAN nations always distrusted hermetic mages because they had no guiding spirit. With the replacment of totems with mentor spirits which shamans and hermetics can get this pretty much goes out the window does it not? It becomes more of a case of does the mage have a mentor spirit regardless of belief or path?
Stormdrake
Mentor spirit of the dragon. Ala the old Exalaber movie with the crome dome wearing Merlin, lol
NeoJudas
Okay, I have finally read through the vast majority of SR4 (ignored some of the fiction material, nice touch up but overall the individual sections after the "Timeline" are a waste IMO). I finally have the following to throw out for opinions.

A) First and Foremost - the editing for the SR4 book sucks. I really do not feel that I can come even close to explaining the true width and depth of my opinion in this area. This is more than just typographical stuff, there are so many areas where material seems to just be missing or was not adjusted. I realize there are always some room for error ... we are all human. With that in mind however, I have to say that I'm forking over $35 for a book that while bound and looks externally/superficially very nice, is filled with enough reading/grammatical problems as to make the book more trial than testimonial.

B) I still think someone either a) created a set of skills then forgot to switch the wording in the section or b) created the skills after-the-fact and really had no intention of being clear in defining their usage. I am referring to the "Tasking" Skill Group that covers the Technomancer Compiling, Decompiling and Registering/Tasking. The skills exist, but are not used in the book anywhere ... even under the "Technomancer" section.

C) I must admit, that while it is a significant change over the pre-SR4 rules, the new dice system will probably make things faster with regards to in-game dice play. The new system however is quite literally sprinkled with inconsistent applications. An example of this is the Combat Sense spell in the new book. It is now an Opposed Spell against target(s) within it's area. For a system that was to make things faster/simpler, it actively makes some things more difficult.

D) I was defending the new Hacking (Rigging) rules the other day here on these forums. And, insofar as the character playability I will still defend them. The new rules do make it easier and more cost effective to be a Rigger. However, keeping that in mind the tools by which the Rigger(s) of the Shadowrun world have to perform their tasks are NOT helpful. Vehicle rules are highly speculative at best. The idea of having a "Walking" and "Running" rates for vehicles and then a seperate "Speed" rating is but one example of very poor judgement. I understand and respect the desire to have mechanics that work for characters as well as equipment, but this is not a good way of doing it. The most glaring example literally becomes the Banshee (Panzer). It has an Accel of 50/250 (Walking/Running) and a Speed of 1000. To raise/climb ones speed above the Running rate, you make the Handling test with each Hit adding 5 to the movement of the vehicle. There are 750 points of movement difference between Speed and "Running Rate". That would mean 150 hits. Talk about an "Extended Test".

E) I at first was starting to be pleased that Body/Armor for Vehicles would be increased in some manner as compared to previous gaming editions. The problem arose however when a couple of the players here and myself starting to try to look for comparisons between pre-SR4 and SR4 vehicles. We could not find a way to convert vehicles. After failing at mulitple attempts at performing this, we started to compare to weapons and found the problem was spread beyond this area. Sniper Rifles for instance could not on a "flat success" (meaning one hit from the shooter, no successes from the defender) outright kill a target. They simply lacked the Damage Value to pull it off. When we compared to other weapons, the problem continued.

F) I have been told by one of the new rising GM's in our group that the Cyberware/Bioware section has significant problems. In many instances, the implants do not allow for their maximum usage for those characters who have maxed out their attributes naturally. I have also been told that while the new cyberware often comes with "Capacity Unit" information (something I applauded when I first read it), the ratings are too arbitrary in places. I'm working on an examples list and expect some from the other member of our group here shortly.

G) Rules vs. Guidelines. This is the part that gets me. Are we, as a group of players/participants treated as an average whole, so mentally light/"hairbrained" that we have to have a Core Rule Book that leaves the majority of the harder decisions up to the GM/Players? I realize that certainly the GM/Players ultimately determine what will be happening in their gaming experiences, but at the same time the rules in the book fail to cover what to me is a more effective gammit/range of determiners. With all the space used for examples, it would seem to me to be more worthwhile to give specific examples for more areas than to sit down and give all the additional "fluff" at the beginning of each chapter/section.

H) I realize that the developers goal was to make a new set of rules that were more streamlined and at the same time more "downpowered" than previous editions. But at the same time, I think it would be a very poor selection of judgement to have a set of rules set for a specific power level only to turn around and continue to put forth books/materials that were obviously more "power/resource specific" than a group of "street runners" could ever hope to participate in. All of the "Shadows of..." books are excellent sources of new material, new destinations, new backdrop ... much of which is simply beyond the power and/or scope of the new game mechanics to become involved in. I believe my favorite statement that was made by Rob B. at the "What's Up" seminar at Gencon Indy '05 was "you won't be going against anything naval category". Excuse me??? What happened to Cyberpirates such as those mentioned in the "Shadows of Asia" book.

I guess I would really like to see signs that the development team/staff is going to remember they are working on an entire "World" instead of just one set of "campaigns". I guess to me that is the difference between a "Game Developer" and a "Game Master".
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Eldritch)
Shamens can now summon spirts and elementals (Except fire). They can vanish with the next sun rise/set(Unbound) or Be around till services are used (Bound). Mages can summon elementals on the fly (Like shamens used to summon spirits) if they choose.


This is more than a mechanical change - it is a setting change.

A mage can now have a totem-like mentor spirit - that provides penalties and bonuses. Just like totems. This also is setting and mechanical. (And as I mentioned, I don't have a problem whith this one - it's kinda cool) Yeah, instead of Dog whispering in his ear, he's got a little Imp, or the Spirit of some long dead mage form the 4th age.

Things were already heading in this sort of direction with the introduction of UMT and such with the latest SOTA books. While I think it's a bit of a cop-out to think that UMT would directly lead to the situation that is in the SR4 mechanics, it allows more flexibility in the magic rules and makes them seem a bit more organic (which is something that I appreciate about SR magic rules in the first place). Besides, coming up with a brand new tradition for every single friggin' cultural belief system was getting to be a chore, and not very conducive to a game that taps into as much depth as SR.
Shinobi Killfist
I hate to say it but I think the new shaman/mage divide is better. Setting wise its way off for me, because I've been around since SR1 and the first novel. But if I'd never played SR, or read the older novels the new mechanical differences between mages and shamans summoning and mentor spirits for mages would likely seem better.

Quite frankly I think setting wise the lack of grounding in 3e bothered me more.
Eldritch
Yeah, I f I look at it (And I Am) as a new game - some of the stuff is pretty cool. But as a continuation of SR - no - it doesn't work for me.
Req
QUOTE (NeoJudas)
<snip>

The most glaring example literally becomes the Banshee (Panzer). It has an Accel of 50/250 (Walking/Running) and a Speed of 1000. To raise/climb ones speed above the Running rate, you make the Handling test with each Hit adding 5 to the movement of the vehicle. There are 750 points of movement difference between Speed and "Running Rate". That would mean 150 hits. Talk about an "Extended Test".

Why the hell isn't there an acceleration stat, or something? Each success on your acceleration test adds the stat, rather than a fixed 5? That would seem a simple and somewhat elegant solution.

'Cause, as it is, that sucks.

(not that I have the book, or anything...)

~R
hyzmarca
In regard to living legends, there is one thing a noticed that is odd.

Correct me if I have the spell defense rules wrong, but it seems that Harlequin can easily be taken out by a group of 0 karma mages.

The maximum number of dice Harly can have in counterspelling is 9, if he specializes. His maximum willpower is 6 wiithout 'ware.

The maximum spellcasting dice a starting character can throw is 9, if he specializes. The maximum magic of a starting character is 6.

Assuming that these mages use BP to bond sustaining foci for improved reflexes, spend edge to go first, and add edge to their initiative rolls so that the dice explode, they can reasonably get in the first hit and overcat their stunbolts at force 12. Harly can only defend as well as they attack so the outcome is a matter of luck.
SL James
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
In regard to living legends, there is one thing a noticed that is odd.

Correct me if I have the spell defense rules wrong, but it seems that Harlequin can easily be taken out by a group of 0 karma mages.

The maximum number of dice Harly can have in counterspelling is 9, if he specializes. His maximum willpower is 6 wiithout 'ware.

Yeah, right. Like immortal elves adhere to any semblence of the rules.
Autarkis
So someone can kill Harlequin? Comeon...the adventure book stated he couldn't be killed....

Woot! Another point for SR4 biggrin.gif
Bandwidthoracle
QUOTE (Autarkis)
So someone can kill Harlequin? Comeon...the adventure book stated he couldn't be killed....

Woot! Another point for SR4 biggrin.gif

I think killing him would be worth a whole extra book!
Sabosect
QUOTE (Autarkis)
So someone can kill Harlequin? Comeon...the adventure book stated he couldn't be killed....

Woot! Another point for SR4 biggrin.gif

Two words: Tactical nuke.

Technically, he's been dead in my games since 2062. Had a bad run in with the PCs, a specialized ground force from Aztlan, and the CAS navy at an old US nuclear missile silo (which, incidentally, somehow had nukes in it) in Texas. The PCs and CAS navy survived (due, in part, to the PCs cutting a deal with the admiral of the fleet and using his racism towards the Azzies as leverage).

Incidentally, we don't exactly expect another Texas uprising against the Azzies. At least, not from the heavily-irradiated survivors of the nuclear fallout.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 26 2005, 09:58 PM)
QUOTE (Autarkis @ Aug 26 2005, 08:14 PM)
So someone can kill Harlequin? Comeon...the adventure book stated he couldn't be killed....

Woot! Another point for SR4 biggrin.gif

Two words: Tactical nuke.

Technically, he's been dead in my games since 2062. Had a bad run in with the PCs, a specialized ground force from Aztlan, and the CAS navy at an old US nuclear missile silo (which, incidentally, somehow had nukes in it) in Texas. The PCs and CAS navy survived (due, in part, to the PCs cutting a deal with the admiral of the fleet and using his racism towards the Azzies as leverage).

Incidentally, we don't exactly expect another Texas uprising against the Azzies. At least, not from the heavily-irradiated survivors of the nuclear fallout.

It has generally been established that a nuclear weapon can't kill Harly. They are too easy to detect with a detect nuclear weapon spell. He would see it comming and get out of the way.

The best way to do it is during the Harlequin adventure when he is dueling Ehran. Have the characters hold their actions till the end of a combat turn so that the dueling IEs won't have a chance to retalliate with their potentially superior speed. Just unload force 12 manaballs on them. If you have any characters who can't cast spells have them unload panther rounds or whatever they notrmally use.

Note that if you don't take them both out in one CT you are dead. A high double to low tripple digit magic rating makes for a lot of spellcasting dice and some very big fireballs.
Sabosect
If he needed a Detect Nuclear Weapon spell, I would say he had bigger problems. He was standing right beside the nuke when it went off. Tis not my fault the very powerful and extremely important artifact he was looking for was left there by the players.
Bandwidthoracle
QUOTE (Sabosect)
If he needed a Detect Nuclear Weapon spell, I would say he had bigger problems. He was standing right beside the nuke when it went off. Tis not my fault the very powerful and extremely important artifact he was looking for was left there by the players.

Also, doesn't he need LOS to detect a nuke? By that time it's a little late.
Conskill
I'd assume any reasonable immortal magician with high double-digits magic and demonstrated teleportation powers is going to have an anchor focus set up. Force 10 Detect Nuclear Reaction / Force 30 Teleport to Secret Base at the Bottom of the Mariana Trench.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle)
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 27 2005, 02:12 AM)
If he needed a Detect Nuclear Weapon spell, I would say he had bigger problems. He was standing right beside the nuke when it went off. Tis not my fault the very powerful and extremely important artifact he was looking for was left there by the players.

Also, doesn't he need LOS to detect a nuke? By that time it's a little late.

If detect spells required LOS to the object to be detected they would be kind of rudundtant. There is no point in casting detect enemies when you can see the enemy ou want to detect.

Detect spells are cast on the subject who will do the detecting. So long so they are sustained they give the subject an extra sense that informs him of the presence of detected objects within a certain radius.


QUOTE (Conskill)
I'd assume any reasonable immortal magician with high double-digits magic and demonstrated teleportation powers is going to have an anchor focus set up. Force 10 Detect Nuclear Reaction / Force 30 Teleport to Secret Base at the Bottom of the Mariana Trench.


Harly probably cannot teleport. Harly does have access to a metamagic known as Netherwalking.. It allows him to shift his physical body onto the astral Plane and take advantage of astral movement rates.

He does follow the rules, he just knows tricks that most most metahuman magicians do not.
blakkie
QUOTE (Eldritch)
Shamens can now summon spirts and elementals (Except fire). They can vanish with the next sun rise/set(Unbound) or Be around till services are used (Bound). Mages can summon elementals on the fly (Like shamens used to summon spirits) if they choose.


This is more than a mechanical change - it is a setting change.

It is a setting evolution, via UMT.....and the SOTA marches on.
Triggerz
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Harly probably cannot teleport. Harly does have access to a metamagic known as Netherwalking.. It allows him to shift his physical body onto the astral Plane and take advantage of astral movement rates.

He does follow the rules, he just knows tricks that most most metahuman magicians do not.

Netherwalking?!? eek.gif Now, that is power!!! Where's it from though? Is it described in any SR2/SR3 book? I assume, of course, it is not a technique available to player characters. nyahnyah.gif And that it won't be for quite a while - if ever. It'd be a bit of a game-breaker in terms of game balance, to say the least.

By the way, in case no one has noticed yet, I am bored out of my mind... I want to start converting characters (or rebuilding them) asap. With everything that's been said about SR4, I'm agonizing waiting for it.
Kagetenshi
It's from Earthdawn, and is available to player characters in that game.

~J
Triggerz
Thanks! Well, the EarthDawn universe had a much higher magic level, if I am not mistaken, so I guess that would make sense. It's probably gonna be another couple hundred or thousand years before SR reaches that level, right? nyahnyah.gif

Hmmm... Not relevant to the thread at all. I'll quit rambling.
Kagetenshi
Oh, it may only be a couple hundred years. Some things sent the cycle careening around a bit, all in all. Regardless, that technique is hardly on the verge of rediscoveryŚwe may as well talk about the Scourge as about anyone who didn't learn it straight from an IE using it now.

~J
Talia Invierno
What can be used can be discovered.
blakkie
Can't free spirits effectively do that for you. Obviously not anchored, but with Gate take your meat astral and then Gate you back to the meat world whereever you have moved to. Or are they limited to bringing you back to the meat where you left?
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
What can be used can be discovered.

Certainly, but that doesn't make it close to discovery.

~J
Talia Invierno
Meant, only, that the current Shadowrun magic level can't be used as an excuse for non re-discovery.
Kagetenshi
It can indirectly. Magic in Shadowrun is relatively new, and as such magic-related research not supported by Great Dragons/IEs can only draw on a very limited amount of previous research. Moreover, it is possible that a heightened magic level might increase the chances of discovery by making it easier to achieve. You are correct, however, that if the current magic level were somehow maintained for a greatly sustained time this would not prevent the discovery of this technique, though it might hinder it.

~J
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012