Ah Well lets see.

1. Lets for purposes of the example say they either heard the shot and turned, or they spotted the runners and then watched him shoot two people.

2. Assuming 1. Lets consider things for a moment. A guy, one shots two people. One shots. They're wearing sec armor. Two guys are slumping to the ground or have already been knocked into the air by the round, or however you want to describe them dieing. Now lets do a threat assesment here. Lucky, or good, this guy droped two armored people with two trigger pulls (just incase he's using smg's on burst). Weather or not he's the biggest, he certainly is a major threat if he can pull off such a feat, even IF he was just lucky. Simple threat assesment there. you can always run away from the troll thats comin at you but its hard to out run bullets from someone who seems to easily kill people in sec armor with a single trigger pull.

3. Ah yes, the idea of grudge 'monsters' apears. Right we're making up hypothetical situations and characters and I'm getting acused of throwing grudge encounters at PC's already. Get over yourself already. Theres two instinctual reactions, fight or flight. One way they imediately pour firepower into the guy. Even if you say simple action burst, simple action run for all 3 thats 3 compitent bursts being poured into the greatest threat they have percieved so far. Trained professionals KNOW to concentrate their fire. Shadowrunners Concentrate their fire to take out key targets, why can't security guards. The other option for the guards would be to fall back. call in for back up , trap the runners and murder them that way. They're obviously going to identify Mr. One Shot Pony as a extream threat and to exterminate him with extreme prejudice after sounding the alarm.

Furthermore, when I run games, Guards act acording to their level of training and whats expected of them at their job ect. They're going to act like a team and support each other and act intelligently acording to that as well. And that level of training and such is going to be based off the team i'm gming for. They all want to twink out, thats fine they're not going to get street level guards, they're going to get highly trained professionals. People with the tactical intelligence and capabilities to give the runners a challenge, and if the runners do something stupid, kill them. Sorry if I make my runs too challenging to you.

4. Once again Assuming a Grudge encounter here. Do you have no other argument other than, "You're just being a horrible gm. How did they know? You're meta-gaming!"

Always? *shrug* Usually i play the guards with at least some semblance of self preservation, intellegence, and tactics. Jus' like they was real people. In varying amounts depending on circumstances, and a dash of random to reflect good days/bad days that people have.

All other things being equal, vengence can be a motivator. Or just having gotten his attention.

Not nessasarily dead, but often till incapacitated. Once again having the guards demonstrate a level of tactics appropriate to the circumstances. Tactic use is going to roughly reflect whether they are minimal wage bodies in a cheap polyester uniform or semi-retired ex-HRT members that switched to a somewhat safer job (or so they thought).

WTF, i didn't say anything about grudge encounters? I guess that screws your bullshit "guilty conscience" angle. EDIT: Oh, i see. You lost track of who said what and assigned a comment to me that wasn't mine.

Grudge encounters, meta-gaming my encounters. Call it what you will, you did accuse.

Once again its a hypothetical situation brought up for a hypothetical char, to show that it doesn't break the game.

If the players use deadly force and take out, very quickly, two members of their squad, depending on how the guards react yes they will pour fire into what they consider to be the biggest threat.

In this example its mr. one trick pony, as with this example he's the only one who's acted. So yes in my opinion, if the fire team decided to stick around and fight it out, highly trained professionals trained to combat intruders and do threat assessment would see him as a threat, and use their combined firepower to bring him down. Its quicker and more efficient to concentrate fire than to widdle multiple targets down one at a time.

As for the high party turn around part. My players have played and still do play both airsoft and paintball, ones working on becoming the cop, and they're prety much all interested in tactics and tactical gaming, strategy and the like. So they have rarely rarely engaged a enemy without the use of cover. They've always atempted the element of surprise and virtualy allways concentrate their fire. They attempt to, if at all possible, avoid battles on open ground and such to avoid things like the above. They're not stupid and they know i'm not. They've caught me off guard with things just as many times as I've caught them off guard. I have never actualy killed a single one of their characters, because they've learned to work better as a team. Though last time we did play i came damn near close, well let me rephrase that, they came damn near close to killing one of their own by mistake because of me

*sigh* I was talking to Shadow_Prophet... Not everything is about you, not every post can be answered immediately... Relax a bit.

So what is it about Mr. 24 dice that makes him such a target? If someone played one in your game, could he not have decent armor, a high dodge, and use good tactics?

Why would you expect me to assume that your example of what happens to Mr. 24 is occuring in a vacuum? In a vacuum, anyone standing up and shooting at guards wih abandon will be toast - I don't see how it really proves anything specifically about why it's unwise to play one-trick ponies. That's why the original post sounded to me like a call to arbitrarily kill a PC off.

I'd like to introduce you to a friend of mine, maybe you've met already? His name is Quote Button. Please use him if there could be confusion about who you are talking to.

What makes him such a target. Well out of the situation lets see, using 2 pulls of the trigger he takes down 2 seperate guards in sec armor. I said nothing about him not having armor, or a high dodge, or him not using tactics. I said the guards would be pouring their fire on him due to him making himself the greatest threat on the field at the moment. Did you not read at all?

The reason its unwise is one, it for the most part, from the looks of things popping 24 dice is rather expensive for one causing all your other skills and stats to suffer acordingly. Secondly the idea of throwing dice at a problem, which you and so many others are so fond of, does not nessicarily make it go away, and infact, as with the hypothetical scene you have overanylized to the point of being a nitpicking ass, can be a major disadvantage.

And no I'm sorry, its not a arbitrary call to kill a pc off. Heck this example is elsewhere I used and even Sabosect who I've argued with alot, was more respectful. There are much easier ways to arbitrarily kill off a pc like this, such as a sniper as he goes out to breakfast in the morning. Get a grip.

Even better ... I am sure there are others like him, hes still "only" a runner, some street punk with an attitude and aptitude... and he sure as hell is NOT unique.

Specially in a setting of SR, effectiveness gets very high grades so the more effective he is, the more likely it is that others will be, too.



In this case I think I would deal with it the gunfighter way. Hell get a superb rep for his skills in a pretty short time and suddenly NPCs will pop up and challenge him to see who is better.
I would even make that NPCs random encounters and have him roll himself...

Being the best isnt really that well advised in a SR setting, as "the best" gets way too much light and light kills creatures of the shadows, as runners are.

(Yes this may sound like a contradiction to the "effective" part, but its all about balance here)

Edit: Thinking about it, I may even go sofar not to let that char roll any die in his trick, as hes a killer / whatever anyway. Unless he goes agains someone of "his" level or above.
Its not to kill the fun for him, but to safe valuable time for all.

*sighs*

For christs sakes people its a fucking hypotheical situation based around a completely unviable hypothetical character.

Hell for the example I only mentioned his team ONCE! Hell in the example they didn't do anything and hadn't acted yet because thats not what the example was supposed to illustrate. The example was set up that the sec guards spotted him and mr one trick pony shoots first and then the guards react.

You people realy need to actualy read for once.

I've already explained I don't just cut down 'effective players' though if you at a couple of the other threads, someone has looked at creating this style char as a effective one and well it ends up not being a viable char. Sure you can do nifty things with one thing but for the most part you suffer everywhere else, heavy specialization can cripple you if you do it out of chargen.

So reconsweden just go back and read the last few things i posted in response to mmu1 and get a grip.

So you basically are saying that this is an irrelevant example, then. Good to see it clarified.

I mean, is it actually supposed to be surprising that if a character - acting alone, and apparently standing in the open - shoots a guard, the other guards are all going to shoot back? How is that a siutation that's made worse by having 24 dice in a skill? What does that example prove?

You'll have to excuse me and reconsweden for thinking you actually had a point.

Alright one more time, because out of the 3 or 4 times I've already responded to your ignorant comments you obviously haven't actualy read anything other than my first post.

The situation is set up, completely hypotheticaly, to demonstrate that having 24 dice and being extreamly good at ranged combat, can very much be a flaw. It does not have to be on open ground. Heck just for you mmu1, let me give you a idea of the scene. The PC's are sneaking through a facility, One trick pony checks around the corner of the T junction in the hallway and see's nothing, so begins to move his team across, deciding to cover the hallway, the last person crosses just as the security team turns into the hallway from the other end. Not seeing them right away mr one trick pony steps out to dart across and the guards yell out. One trick pony imediately fires twice at the guards killing two, the guards retaliate.

Is that better for you?

Or prehapse

Same part, the teams crossing he decides to be in the back to cover just if things go down. As the last few people cross, lets say just for you, a Troll, and a elven mage, and mr one trick ofcourse, the guards spot them and yell for them to stop, mr one trick turns and fires twice killing 2 and the guards open fire on him, the apparent at that time biggest threat at the moment.

Why is he the biggest threat there and not the troll? Because he's the one fireing for one, and two he just droped two guys in sec armor.

I didn't describe out every detail of the scene because I was leaving it up to your imagination, the scene could be described any number of different ways. I'm sorry for assuming since you play rpg's like shadowrun you could use a little bit of imagination to draw up a realistic scene in which the above situation could take place.

How do these examples demonstrate that being very good at ranged combat can be a drawback? They do nothing of the sort.

They demonstrate that:

1. When you're spotted by the guards while sneaking, stopping in the open to fire at them instead of running back to cover is stupid - especially when...

2. ...you're the only one shooting and your teammates don't back you up, because then you might as well paint a bullseye on your chest.

Bad tactics get people killed. That's all these examples show.

Are you seriously claiming that the fact the guy in your examples had 24 dice in ranged combat somehow contributed to his death? Would he have been less likely to die if he had much lower skill, and he went through the same scenarios but only wounded the guards or missed them entirely? He'd actually be worse off, since he'd have two more guards trying to blow him away.

It's not my fault that your conclusions don't logically follow from your premises. If they did the first time, you wouldn't have had to repeat yourself.

And it sure as hell isn't my job to try to imagine the conditions under which your argument might be true if you repeatedly fail to do that yourself.

We could go back and forth all day. I could come up with any number of scenarios involving cover, battlefield conditions, ongoing battles ect, but something tells me no matter how plausible the situation you would ignore it. First you claim it being a grudge encounter, and then you move on to say, well you didn't describe anything so your example doesn't work. Fine mmu1, I'm just going to accept the fact that you're not listening but I'll give you one more example of a situation.

The runner team for whatever reason has gotten bogged down in a little bit of combat. Right now they have a good position behind cover. Their opponents are a team of 5 security guards, rather well trained at that. They are also behind cover. Now out of the team you've got the Troll crouched down with a ak taking shots at the guards, and beside him you've got a ork laying down some fire too. On the other side of him you've got mr one trick pony. The runners have decided that since mr one trick pony is so good at what he does its his job to pick off each guard as they present themselves to shoot back. So the troll and ork make a little noise. They're still trying to hit, but their job in the group is to provide covering fire for mr one trick. As they let up to reload the guards pop out a bit to return fire at the runners. Mr. One trick, has held his actions and decides to take them now that his targets are visible and open for a good shot. Pop. One drops. Pop. Two drops. The other 3 watching their teammates drop from accurate fire pop off a grenade and two bursts towards mr one trick because he's now labled himself as the single biggest threat to their lives before they duck back into cover.

The essence of the original example is that being able to take sec guards down in one trigger pull imediately lables you as a major threat. And that can be a very large disadvantage when the guards concentrate their remaining firepower on dropping you first. I'm not sure how thats been so hard to understand. But then again I probably shouldn't have given a example simply because thats entirely what you've focused on. First trying to attack it and dismiss it as a grudge encounter, and now because I bothered to give you two previous examples, attack the tactics of it. (NOTE: in the second one, the other two people there hadn't gotten a chance to act yet as things went one trick, guards, then them. They were there to back him up they just hadn't had a chance to do anything yet)

So whatever I'm just going to dismiss the idea of holding a intelligent, or civil conversation with you, because at this point I'm pretty sure you're not capable of such. So good day to you.

I'll ignore the insults because you seem to be getting frustrated, and give this one last go...

Please explain to me how this situation would play out differently if the best marksman on the runner team only had 12 dice in firearms - but still far more than the rest of the team, who only have 6 or 7 dice each. Would he not still seem like the biggest threat? Is he still guaranteeing his doom?

What you're saying is that there's something about having a very high skill that inherently makes you more likely to get shot at and killed - which makes it seem like you're suggesting people should be afraid to excel, because rising above mediocrity only makes you more likely to die. It's the argument for character anti-advancement.

What I'm saying is that all you've proven so far is that you're only more likely to get killed if you decide to act in ways that make you a target. This can be accomplished in almost infnifte ways, and having an exceptionally high score in one of your skills isn't a significant factor, compared to all the other ways you can do it.

12 dice is quite different from the argument of 24 dice. The argument of 24 dice being broken was that you could almost 100% of the time kill your standard guard.

With 12 dice, you probably won't outright kill someone in one hit. Two shots, probably. But not a single pull of the trigger like you can probably easily do with 24 dice.

The fact that you're skill is so high with 24 dice isn't nessicairly the problem. The result of that is that you can prety much and will kill people in one shot. That...right there...is what makes having 24 dice both a blessing and a big target for you. The sheer lethality of 24 dice. Its the same reason if a guy pulls out a rocket launcher you're going to target him, or the guy on the heavy machine gun is going to draw your fire. Its the lethality and the threat that that lethality poses.

If I'm a runner and my opponent just suddently one shots two of my teamates hells yeah i'm going to have everyone around me pour fire into that guy before diving for cover. I'd be stupid as shit if I didn't as would you in the same situation.

So I suppose in a way I mistated what made him a threat, and for that I'll humbly apologize.

What if the guy with 12 dice is stopped by the armor? He's not going to get shot full of holes just because his shots didn't penetrate? The reality is, he gets shot too - except by two more people than Mr.24, since he failed to take any down.

From my point of view, the key issue in all of these hypothetical scenarios isn't how badly enraged/motivated/focused the enemies get if you one-shot two of their buddies - it's whether you've put yourself in a position that will actually let them do something about it. If you're in a situation where whether you live or die is determined by how badly you pissed off the guards with your shooting, you screwed up somewhere. You're getting killed because you were careless, or cocky(or maybe unlucky), because your teammates dropped the ball, because you got double-crossed and ambushed... Not because your leet skills with guns get security guards everywhere angry.

I also think that, a vast majority of the time, in the middle of a firefight it'll be a lot easier for enemies to take notice of the guy carrying a big gun, or of the troll, or the mage, than of the guy with a pistol and 24 skills dice.

Finally, I have yet to be in a game where high skill - provided it didn't leave me with a vast handicap in other areas - had ever been a detriment.

Not that I'd want to play a Mr. 24, but I can easily imagine characters with, I dunno - 16 or 18 dice in a combat skill - that are not significantly gimped in other areas - in particular, if I were to play in a SR4 game that wasn't "street level", but more in line with a typical SR3 campaign. Or if I ported a character of mine with 80 karma over to SR4.

I'm very sorry that you aren't able to understand the points I've been trying to make. I'd say more but I wouldn't want to distract you and let a Mr.24 slip by on your watch. We must think of the children.

Has anyone here even bothered to finish the chargen of a Mr. 24 and posted it? It is bad enough to make statements like that before the character has been played....

Likely a bit of an error there, so you have to drop that to a 2, and use another 10BP. You can't have it at 3 or you're over your 50% of BP. EDIT: Oops, forgot his is an elf. Nevermind about this point.

BTW you couldn't have your Agi at 8 or you'd have to drop another 3 Attribute points from somewhere.

P.S. Does Expeptional Stat raise the cap and also raise the Attribute too? I got the impression that it just raised the cap.

EDIT:

Are you allowed to take this power at level 6 with only a Magic of 3?

EDIT2:

You might also want to work on Mr. 24 a bit more and finish up those last 79BP. Right now he's only sitting at 1 pass for Init. Not sure how his Initiative is going to stack up either. Since his defensive plan is primarly based on offense acting first is going to be even more important than usual and being surprised is likely a very bad thing.

If I am not mistaken, you went way over the 200PB cap, as Magic and Edge are "regular" Attributes afaik so you got to cut back on 30BP for attributes which would really hurt.

As the above poster mentioned, too, Magic 3 will limit the Adept powers to a rating of 3 as well, unless that was changed in SR4. (Dodge +3 anyone?)

No, you are mistaken on that point. Edge and Magic [and Resonance] don't count towards the 50% max Attributes.

Ouch...

How about the Adept Power / Magic cap?

I saw someone mention that limit a day or two ago in regards to a different matter. Don't remember who, but i think they had the book. So that limit is likely still there.

But in any event someone with the book will stop by and answer that question plus the question about whether or not Expeptional Stat raises the cap and the Attribute or just the cap.

Er, no. He's only allowed 3 levels in Adept powers. Unless you find another 45BP to raise Magic.

EDIT: My bad, it is melee Full Defense that is Reaction + Dodge + Dodge, ranged is only Reaction + Dodge. Still 10 for Reaction + Dodge seems so-so for anything resembling a sammie. In any case that puts the hit/miss change somewhere around 60%-40% with it a one-shot kill being a long shot.

I thought Ex-ex wasn't available at chargen?

*shrug* So? Is it outside of the range of a chargen character? If not play on and let the dice fall where they may. The system is self regulating itself.

P.S. Good Cover penalty to the shooter is -4.

Setting aside that archtypes are normally gimps..... The 6 for the Weaponsexpert. The Combat Mage has 7 + whatever Force he has his Improved Init spell at. That could be a 10 total, not sure how likely that is but it is possible. That's all without cyber or bio.

So you are setting up a detuned defender to take the fall against a tuned (well not really tuned yet since the PC isn't fully completed) shooter? I'm not shocked when he dies. He should.

Why not build him? Put put the effort into making him a tuned PC that is using a more defensive strategy. Why does the sammie only get a Reaction 4 when the shooter gets a 5? Where is the sammie putting his BP?

So a weaker opponent is killed by a stronger opponent? STOP THE PRESSES!!!! We have something to replace that breaking D&D story about a 5th level Sorcerer single handedly taking out not 1, not 2, but 3 kobolds (one of them even had a weapon).

Thankyou for including "to" in that sentence.

Personally i'm still waiting for Mr. 24 to show up so we can spend a little time with him. I've heard so much about him the last couple of days, yet i don't feel like i know him at all. :^)

Once he shows up i might actually take a stab at creating a character or 3 to see how he stacks up overall. Yes, i'm just following my hunch based on similar talk when DnD 3e first came out. People were freaked about what a particular PC could do in this or that area. But even tossed into simple senarios it was found that they weren't a breakdown of the system at all.