Of late from what I'm reading I've been growing concerned that SR4 has lost some of SR3's lethality. That's its no longer possible, unless you roll really well, to take out a single grunt with a single gunshot or spell. ( edge should be reserved for non-grunts ) Likewise staging down damage to nothing may be limited too.
Granted I'm working off hearsay until I actually read the book.
Two possible solutions....
Double the damage boxes for staging. So every success adds two boxes of damage, not one. Likewise every success resisting damage lowers it by 2.
and/or
Make all dice "Exploding"
Any thoughts? Too much? Not enough?
Perhaps I'm overreacting?
Maybe I'm mising something?
Full Version: Improving Game Lethality
I think you are over-reacting, a bit, but there's no way of knowing until I play through at least a month's worth of sessions of combat. As far as spells are concerned, you can easily take out a grunt with a single Stunbolt and take no drain from it, if you set it at a Force of 7 or greater (Force 7 = 2 boxes of drain, Force 9 = 3 boxes of drain). Don't worry too much about overcasting... it may go against your instincts as an SR3 mage, but in SR4, overcasting kicks total butt.
Hunt through the spell casting stuff about this. Apparently if you want to one-shot (stun) with a spell you need to overcast and risk P drain range. But for reasonably confidant grunt kills you don't actually risk much drain, and have a good chance of taking none. EDIT: Damn, hahnsoo was quicker and more detailed with his spell example. 
As for oneshot with a firearm sounds like a bigger gun/ammo will do the trick, especially if you count a 3-round narrow burst (concentrated for more damage, no influence on dodge) as a "oneshot" since it only takes a simple action.
Also i think JongWK gave an acceptable example of how a Predator IV had a decent chance at oneshot, even though he was taking high-end abilities and using Edge. All this talk about how SR4 doesn't enable representing the best of the best of the best (sir!) has got me starting to think maybe Edge is a part of ALL abilities. In the same way that Skill is nolonger the total ability, you have to include the Attribute to understand the range of abilities and where a character sits on it, you also have include Edge as an integral part.
P.S. I kinda always disliked reliable one-shot killing of grunts anyway. Kill them with a single Complex, sure. But easily with a simple action without breaking out the big guns (serious Sniper rifle, BF ex-ex shotgun slugs, etc.). I think it makes the trail of corpses option a little too tempting. But that is style preference, and there are other ways a GM can discourage it.
As for oneshot with a firearm sounds like a bigger gun/ammo will do the trick, especially if you count a 3-round narrow burst (concentrated for more damage, no influence on dodge) as a "oneshot" since it only takes a simple action.
Also i think JongWK gave an acceptable example of how a Predator IV had a decent chance at oneshot, even though he was taking high-end abilities and using Edge. All this talk about how SR4 doesn't enable representing the best of the best of the best (sir!) has got me starting to think maybe Edge is a part of ALL abilities. In the same way that Skill is nolonger the total ability, you have to include the Attribute to understand the range of abilities and where a character sits on it, you also have include Edge as an integral part.
P.S. I kinda always disliked reliable one-shot killing of grunts anyway. Kill them with a single Complex, sure. But easily with a simple action without breaking out the big guns (serious Sniper rifle, BF ex-ex shotgun slugs, etc.). I think it makes the trail of corpses option a little too tempting. But that is style preference, and there are other ways a GM can discourage it.
Oh, here's a list of "sanctioned house rules" to increase the lethality, as p 69 has a big black box called "Tweaking the Rules" which shows a lot of ways to make the game more/less lethal or cinematic or grittier or whatever:
| QUOTE |
| More Lethal Gameplay You may desire your games to be deadlier, in which case these options are suggested: * Increase the DV of weapons by 2 across the board and don't convert Physical damage to Stun if the DV doesn't exceed the Armor rating. * Only allow full defense actions (p.151) when they are taken on the character's Action Phase. * Treat glitches on Damage Resistance Tests as severe wounds - bleeding, broken bones, mangled limbs, ruined implants that will require special medical care or repair. |
Actually, that box has a lot of interesting things in there, including Alternate Combat Rules:
| QUOTE |
| * Rather than handling all combat as an Opposed Test, you can handle ranged combat as a Success Test with a threshold based on Range (Short 1, Medium 2, Long 3, Extreme 4). Some situational modifiers will affect threshold rather than dice pool, such as blind fire, cover, etc. * To cut down on dice rolling during combat, you could drop Damage Resistance Tests entirely, reducing combat to a single Opposed Test. Armor would deduct directly from the attack's DV |
I'll have to play around with those optional rules for reducing the number of dice rolls. Wonder what'd happen if you had combat as a threshhold test and had armor reduce DV directly? Or forced defenders to use auto successes . . .
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) |
| I think you are over-reacting, a bit, but there's no way of knowing until I play through at least a month's worth of sessions of combat. As far as spells are concerned, you can easily take out a grunt with a single Stunbolt and take no drain from it, if you set it at a Force of 7 or greater (Force 7 = 2 boxes of drain, Force 9 = 3 boxes of drain). Don't worry too much about overcasting... it may go against your instincts as an SR3 mage, but in SR4, overcasting kicks total butt. |
It sure seems like it will take some getting used to, it's going to put the head-zap on a lot of people that have played mages for a long time. But am i on the right path in mindset to roughly equate raising the Force and overcasting to SR3's upping the Damage Level?
I also think these examples where you have to used a lot of Force shows how limited a Magic 1 caster is, at least for offensive spells.
Tell me does it look like the more utilitarian spells like Levitate and Oxygenate, where you don't have an antagonistic target that will resist, will be fairly functional at low Force? How about the ones like Heal and Detox that tend to be of more critical import to get right when they need to get done?
In all cases, the Force limits the amount of "hits" that you can get on your spellcasting tests. Since with a low magic, you are unlikely to get nearly as many hits, you can probably get away with a low Force pretty easily as well.
A caster with only a Magic Rating of 1 is not going to be very effective as a combat spell chucker, and there are few spells that provide any sort of great benefit at Force 2 (the maximum force you would be able to cast), but they do exist (Increased Reflexes, for example, or certain Detection spells). On the other hand, you'd only take maybe 1 or 2 boxes for drain for the majority of those spells.
A caster with only a Magic Rating of 1 is not going to be very effective as a combat spell chucker, and there are few spells that provide any sort of great benefit at Force 2 (the maximum force you would be able to cast), but they do exist (Increased Reflexes, for example, or certain Detection spells). On the other hand, you'd only take maybe 1 or 2 boxes for drain for the majority of those spells.
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) | ||
Actually, that box has a lot of interesting things in there, including Alternate Combat Rules:
|
Have to think about that the first one a bit as i like the Theshholds for ranges part but not sure about Theshhold all the time. The second those is a yes, sounds like a real win-win. Less rolling, more maiming and death.
Well not if massive armor values are the norm (what are those armour degradation rules again?) and i am a bit concerned with how close it is to SR3 vehicle armor rules.P.S. I'm not a big fan of Optional rules written into the BBB, they tend to confuse. But then again i'm in the [fortunate] position where i don't need an option written in the book to consider using it as a rule. How many of these are there the BBB as a whole? The way you describe them they seem clearly marked.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| How many of these are there the BBB as a whole? The way you describe them they seem clearly marked. |
It fills the whole page. There are 16 "dots", and one section that is just a "no-dot" paragraph suggestion, so 17 total.
It's a little harder to "one shot" somebody without using things like specialized ammo or Burst/Auto Fire (or major Overcasting)... But on the flip side, it's also a LOT harder to completely resist damage, even for Trolls with lots of armor. Chances are if you get hit, you're going to take at least a couple boxes of damage.
Bull
Bull
| QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 22 2005, 03:13 PM) | ||
It fills the whole page. There are 16 "dots", and one section that is just a "no-dot" paragraph suggestion, so 17 total. |
Interesting that it takes up a whole page.
But i ment throughout the book on whatever variety of topics. Are there many of these full page Option "sidebars"? Or are they generally smaller in scope and size? And how common, such as how many sprinkled in the Awakened World chapter?
| QUOTE |
| It's a little harder to "one shot" somebody without using things like specialized ammo or Burst/Auto Fire (or major Overcasting)... But on the flip side, it's also a LOT harder to completely resist damage, even for Trolls with lots of armor. Chances are if you get hit, you're going to take at least a couple boxes of damage. Bull |
That's precisely why I'm considering uping the staging of damage per success from 1 to 2. ( and the same in the opposite direction ). I want to increase both the chance of doing more damage and the chance of damage being greatly reduced by those with the Body and resistance dice to do it. ( and what good is an armored troll if he can't bounce a few bullets? )
When my players try SR4 they're going to use converted characters from the SR3 system and expect to be able to pull off similar feats as they did before. ( and 2 out of 4 are magician types ) I'm trying to see how I can get the SR4 system to do that.
Part of the answer is, "You can't do it that well."
You probably can tailor it so it will work for the level your characters are at, and similar opponents. Things will probably start getting weird if you move too far away from that range, however. For example, if hits are worth twice as much damage, people with really low skill are unlikely to be much if any threat, while those with really high skill are likely to be terrifying even at ultra-long range and in bad conditions.
But the bottom line is that a fixed TN system doesn't approximate a variable TN system in a very wide range. Hopefully your players will be happy inside that range, or you and they won't mind the strange effects of going outside it.
You probably can tailor it so it will work for the level your characters are at, and similar opponents. Things will probably start getting weird if you move too far away from that range, however. For example, if hits are worth twice as much damage, people with really low skill are unlikely to be much if any threat, while those with really high skill are likely to be terrifying even at ultra-long range and in bad conditions.
But the bottom line is that a fixed TN system doesn't approximate a variable TN system in a very wide range. Hopefully your players will be happy inside that range, or you and they won't mind the strange effects of going outside it.
| QUOTE |
| For example, if hits are worth twice as much damage, people with really low skill are unlikely to be much if any threat, while those with really high skill are likely to be terrifying even at ultra-long range and in bad conditions. |
Now that sounds a lot more like SR3. ( although in SR3 bad conditions often led to insurmountable target modifiers. But that wouldn't be such a bad change. )
I kind of expect an armored troll to wade into a gang of humanist street gang thugs and be the last one standing. I expect mages that cast powerful combat spells to leave unprotected, weak opponents in the dust. I expect that the physical adept will be able to take out the security guard before he can issue the alarm. I expect that when faced with high skill opponents the shadowrunners are in mortal danger!
Yeah. You can do that--what you lose is that in SR3 there were conditions where the runners couldn't do that due to TN penalties. They had to work for the right conditions, and then they could be very effective. In SR4, they're unlikely to have to work. You can set dice penalties such that they have to work, but those penalties might then too easily cripple those of lesser skills, providing a loophole--make things a little difficult, and the opposition is completely powerless.
Another unwanted (I think?) consequence would be that pure luck would have much more to do with you´re survival if you did it like that. With fixed tn there´s really no telling how many successes you will get. So if the street thug gets 4 successes on his 5 measly dice and you´re bad ass samuraj gets 2 with his 12 body and armor dice, he may be dead.
(My concern is that bad luck would have increasingly significant deadly consequences as a larger portion of the damage is determined by dice rolls. This would not mimic SR3 at all. For that reason increasing the DV´s might be a better choice for making the game deadlier)
(My concern is that bad luck would have increasingly significant deadly consequences as a larger portion of the damage is determined by dice rolls. This would not mimic SR3 at all. For that reason increasing the DV´s might be a better choice for making the game deadlier)
| QUOTE (mintcar @ Aug 23 2005, 11:06 AM) |
| Another unwanted (I think?) consequence would be that pure luck would have much more to do with you´re survival if you did it like that. With fixed tn there´s really no telling how many successes you will get. So if the street thug gets 4 successes on his 5 measly dice and you´re bad ass samuraj gets 2 with his 12 body and armor dice, he may be dead. |
Possible, but quite unlikely. The Probability for the Thug to get at least 4 successes is quite low (only 4.5%).
The Sam on the other hand rolls reaction first , lets say he has a Reaction of 8 (cyberware should make that possible) he will get at least one success from that (Prob: 96.1%), reducing the 4 of the Thug to 3 and the Weapon used +3 DV.
And then he will roll his 12 Body + Armor, getting at least 2 successes (Prob 94.6%) from that, reducing the damage by 2 to a DV+1.
It depends now on the weapon used and the Armor worn. If the Thug used a Ares Predator (DV:5(-1)) and the Sam wore a Armor Jacket (Ballistic Armor 8 ).
In this case the Sam would only have an Body Attribute of 5, quite low even for SR4 considering cyberware improvements, and would have taken 6 Boxes of physical damage.
And that only if the Thug had a lucky shot, and the sam rolling on a minimum. Let's look at the average Roll.
The thug and his 5 dice averages about 1-2 hits on a roll (both have a probability of 32.92%, so he will roll 1 or 2 hits most of the time).
Our Reaction 8 Sam averages about 2-4 Hits on his reaction roll (71.7%). On an average roll he simply evades the shot the thug aims at him.
But even then, he averages around 3-5 Hits on his Armor + Body roll.
Even in SR3 i have seen quite lucky shots from such thugs, nearly killing a sam, 'cause he was unlucky. He had to use Karma to survive. As would the new sam, only that he uses Edge now.
| QUOTE |
| Another unwanted (I think?) consequence would be that pure luck would have much more to do with you´re survival if you did it like that. With fixed tn there´s really no telling how many successes you will get. So if the street thug gets 4 successes on his 5 measly dice and you´re bad ass samuraj gets 2 with his 12 body and armor dice, he may be dead. (My concern is that bad luck would have increasingly significant deadly consequences as a larger portion of the damage is determined by dice rolls. This would not mimic SR3 at all. For that reason increasing the DV´s might be a better choice for making the game deadlier) |
So lets compare. Thug 4 successes out of 5. Player 2 successes out of 12. (Extremely unlikely by the way.)
In SR3 the thug would probably be using some sort of handgun doing M base damage. Those two extra successes would stage it to a serious wound. ( 6 Boxes ) Ouch! Given the possibilities of organ failure and the imposition of some truly horrendous injury modifiers, the sam is in a world of hurt at this point.
In SR4 the thug would proably be using some sort of handgun doing 5P damage. Assuming the damage wasn't turned into stun by the armor. Than were looking at (5 + 4 ) physical boxes of damage. A pretty serious wound as well. ( Though only 2 more boxes than it otherwise would be )
| QUOTE |
| Even in SR3 i have seen quite lucky shots from such thugs, nearly killing a sam, 'cause he was unlucky. He had to use Karma to survive. As would the new sam, only that he uses Edge now. |
Precisely.
| QUOTE (Bull) |
| But on the flip side, it's also a LOT harder to completely resist damage, even for Trolls with lots of armor. Chances are if you get hit, you're going to take at least a couple boxes of damage. |
And THAT I like. Its a nice balance in the power curve. You wont drop an armored foe with a pistol in one shot, but you are going to mess him up a bit, even if its just from the stun damage.
The "emergency" full dodge option is also going to screw with these calculations. In SR3 you got to one shot a bad guy by carefully positioning yourself to get a target number 3 or 4 shot and then dumping combat pool into him. At that point, he could try to dodge but realistically wouldn't have enough dice if he was a goon.
Now, however, a goon will have at least some Edge and some training in Dodge besides. Consider the weapon specialist: 4 Skill + 4 Stat + 2 Smartlink for 10 dice. That'll reliable generate 3 hits. If the goon has a Reaction of 3, he's going to reliably generate one hit. If our Weapon Spec is using Predator IV with EX rounds loaded (DV 7P -3) and the goon has Body 3 and 6 ballistic armor then things will get ugly. The modified DV is 9. The goon only rolls 6 dice (reliably getting two hits). Thus 7 points of damage. The second shot is even worse for the goon: Weapon Spec is probably down to 9 dice from recoil, but still gets 3 hits. The goon has a -2 penalty for wounds and -1 for the second attack resisted = No Dice! Armor generates two hits again, but that's small comfort because it reduces the damage to 10.
But what if our goon wants to live? As long as we're not talking surprise attack, the goon will likely realize he's in a terrible position: no cover and outdrawn by a suddenly appearing intruder. He may go Full Defense when attacked, as well as using Edge on the dodge roll. Say the goon only has an Edge of 2 and a dodge of 2. That's still 7 dice on the dodge test - and these dice explode. Thus, the goon will likely generate about 3 hits (figure at least one six) - which could totally negate the first shot! Second shot is uglier, because he's resisting with 4 dice against 9. Still, this is much more likely to be a survivable wound. And the goon can always use edge again to stay in one piece.
The goon could also use Edge to try to go first in the combat, using that action to run for cover and a free action to call for backup. Aggressive types might use Edge to go first and then open fire! Now the shadowrunner is facing down a 5 to 7 die attack with only their reaction. Basically, with Edge involved you simply cannot count on the whole: "I'm so fast, and so good and have such a huge gun that I can walk up to guys and just win." Every armed foe has to be treated as dangerous - there's no more assurance that you'll beat anyone on initiative (even if you have Wired III) and no assurance that you'll send the guy to Valhalla with one mighty blast from you Predator III.
Now, however, a goon will have at least some Edge and some training in Dodge besides. Consider the weapon specialist: 4 Skill + 4 Stat + 2 Smartlink for 10 dice. That'll reliable generate 3 hits. If the goon has a Reaction of 3, he's going to reliably generate one hit. If our Weapon Spec is using Predator IV with EX rounds loaded (DV 7P -3) and the goon has Body 3 and 6 ballistic armor then things will get ugly. The modified DV is 9. The goon only rolls 6 dice (reliably getting two hits). Thus 7 points of damage. The second shot is even worse for the goon: Weapon Spec is probably down to 9 dice from recoil, but still gets 3 hits. The goon has a -2 penalty for wounds and -1 for the second attack resisted = No Dice! Armor generates two hits again, but that's small comfort because it reduces the damage to 10.
But what if our goon wants to live? As long as we're not talking surprise attack, the goon will likely realize he's in a terrible position: no cover and outdrawn by a suddenly appearing intruder. He may go Full Defense when attacked, as well as using Edge on the dodge roll. Say the goon only has an Edge of 2 and a dodge of 2. That's still 7 dice on the dodge test - and these dice explode. Thus, the goon will likely generate about 3 hits (figure at least one six) - which could totally negate the first shot! Second shot is uglier, because he's resisting with 4 dice against 9. Still, this is much more likely to be a survivable wound. And the goon can always use edge again to stay in one piece.
The goon could also use Edge to try to go first in the combat, using that action to run for cover and a free action to call for backup. Aggressive types might use Edge to go first and then open fire! Now the shadowrunner is facing down a 5 to 7 die attack with only their reaction. Basically, with Edge involved you simply cannot count on the whole: "I'm so fast, and so good and have such a huge gun that I can walk up to guys and just win." Every armed foe has to be treated as dangerous - there's no more assurance that you'll beat anyone on initiative (even if you have Wired III) and no assurance that you'll send the guy to Valhalla with one mighty blast from you Predator III.
Yeah, gaining surprise is a very good thing in SR4. As is cover.
From what I can tell so far,
1 By raising you Reaction (acts as a passive defense) you can basically ignore fire from goons (ie with an effective reaction of 7+, when goons will be rolling 6 dice to shoot you, it's just not going to happen)
2 The marginal advantage of offense is overwhelming, it appears to be reatively trivial to get 17 dice on the offense (elf + exception agility, base agility of 7 (50 build points + the cost of the edge), weapon skill of choice 6, smartlink, specialization) and that is without any 'extras' like adept powers.
Assuming you are rollng 18 dice (a SR4 version of the firearms 12 adept) you get 6 hits on average, which would be very hard to dodge.
The fact that the penalties appear to subract from the attacker's die pool make the problem worse.
From what i've seen so far, extreme range is -3 dice, assume partial cover is -2 dice, and bad lighting is another -1 die, and target running is -2 dice for a whopping total of -8 dice, and this guy still hits you as well as the example weapon specialist shooting at you standing still, in the open, in good lighting (8 basic dice + smartlink for the weapons specialist).
And you want to up the damage?
The problem is that all the old ways of avoiding damage (cover, lighting mods, etc) seem to be no longer effective.
In addition, willpower now appears to be a dump stat rather than one of the critical ones, as will power no longer protects you from magic.
From the 'how to drop a goon' stuff in the magic thread, is appears that well built spell casters can do 10 damage to a will 3 goon. If you are the very pinnacle of willpower (a 7, the very definition of willpower) you would take 8.67 damage.
Since you don't want to be flattened by misted mage, you use your edge to try to resist the damage. You are a human, and are at the the 'olympic' level of mobyness (edge 7) an friendly neighboorhood mage has given you 4 dice of spell defense. So you now roll 18 exploding dice to try to stage down the 11 base damage spell (DL required to drop a goon in one hit) the opposing mage threw out... (you get an average of 7 successes (6 basic + 1 exploding) And you still take 4 points of damage.
So in SR4 the only real defense appears to be a faster on the draw overpowering offense...
1 By raising you Reaction (acts as a passive defense) you can basically ignore fire from goons (ie with an effective reaction of 7+, when goons will be rolling 6 dice to shoot you, it's just not going to happen)
2 The marginal advantage of offense is overwhelming, it appears to be reatively trivial to get 17 dice on the offense (elf + exception agility, base agility of 7 (50 build points + the cost of the edge), weapon skill of choice 6, smartlink, specialization) and that is without any 'extras' like adept powers.
Assuming you are rollng 18 dice (a SR4 version of the firearms 12 adept) you get 6 hits on average, which would be very hard to dodge.
The fact that the penalties appear to subract from the attacker's die pool make the problem worse.
From what i've seen so far, extreme range is -3 dice, assume partial cover is -2 dice, and bad lighting is another -1 die, and target running is -2 dice for a whopping total of -8 dice, and this guy still hits you as well as the example weapon specialist shooting at you standing still, in the open, in good lighting (8 basic dice + smartlink for the weapons specialist).
And you want to up the damage?
The problem is that all the old ways of avoiding damage (cover, lighting mods, etc) seem to be no longer effective.
In addition, willpower now appears to be a dump stat rather than one of the critical ones, as will power no longer protects you from magic.
From the 'how to drop a goon' stuff in the magic thread, is appears that well built spell casters can do 10 damage to a will 3 goon. If you are the very pinnacle of willpower (a 7, the very definition of willpower) you would take 8.67 damage.
Since you don't want to be flattened by misted mage, you use your edge to try to resist the damage. You are a human, and are at the the 'olympic' level of mobyness (edge 7) an friendly neighboorhood mage has given you 4 dice of spell defense. So you now roll 18 exploding dice to try to stage down the 11 base damage spell (DL required to drop a goon in one hit) the opposing mage threw out... (you get an average of 7 successes (6 basic + 1 exploding) And you still take 4 points of damage.
So in SR4 the only real defense appears to be a faster on the draw overpowering offense...
| QUOTE |
| Since you don't want to be flattened by misted mage, you use your edge to try to resist the damage. You are a human, and are at the the 'olympic' level of mobyness (edge 7) an friendly neighboorhood mage has given you 4 dice of spell defense. So you now roll 18 exploding dice to try to stage down the 11 base damage spell (DL required to drop a goon in one hit) the opposing mage threw out... (you get an average of 7 successes (6 basic + 1 exploding) And you still take 4 points of damage. |
Wait a minute. In SR3 if you managed to outdo the caster's successes that resulted in a miss. Does not affect target. That held for all combat spells. ( Elemental damage spells were different )
Has that changed?
I'm still trying to adjust to the idea that its tactically sound to cast a spell at such a high level that you take physical damage. That almost never happened in SR3 and really IMHO shouldn't happen in SR4.
| QUOTE (booklord) |
| Wait a minute. In SR3 if you managed to outdo the caster's successes that resulted in a miss. Does not affect target. That held for all combat spells. ( Elemental damage spells were different ) Has that changed? I'm still trying to adjust to the idea that its tactically sound to cast a spell at such a high level that you take physical damage. That almost never happened in SR3 and really IMHO shouldn't happen in SR4. |
Ties go to the defender in SR4. Direct Combat spells (Stunbolt, Powerbolt, etc.) need to get at least one net success to affect a target.
While it may not be "tactically sound" to overcast on your typical area effect and Physical damage bombs like Powerball or Manabolt, Stunbolt is quite a nasty spell due to the Drain code reduction (F/2 round down -1). Even at a Force of 9 (guaranteed to KO any person with a Willpower of 4 or less), it only does 3 DV, which can be easily reduced by 3 successes on a Drain test. That's like casting something at M drain (albeit, Physical drain), and doing D stun damage as the BASE. Totally evil.
The example given at the very beginning "story" of the Magic section shows the caster overcasting to fry a troll with a combat spell.
Is there still a positive quality that gives you additional dice in spell resistence, as in SR3 the edge 'Magic Resistance'?
Yes, Magic Resistance is still in.
Thx - well, it looks like this will get even more popular than in SR3...
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| From the 'how to drop a goon' stuff in the magic thread, is appears that well built spell casters can do 10 damage to a will 3 goon. If you are the very pinnacle of willpower (a 7, the very definition of willpower) you would take 8.67 damage. ... So in SR4 the only real defense appears to be a faster on the draw overpowering offense... |
I am not sure if I like the logic behind your argument there, got to admit its a bit scary tbh. Maybe I never saw SR3 in that cold math, dunno.
Got to wait for the book till I make a final judgement there.
As mentioned earlier, the mage still got to have 1 net hit otherwise the spell goes poof. Takes a bit of the punch out of the force 12 spells comming your way.
I fully agree on the offense issue though, and if you ask me, thats the way its supposed to be.
Must be a reason most ppl dive for cover when the lead gets flying IRL.
For everything else we still got Feng Shui
| QUOTE (Lindt) | ||
And THAT I like. Its a nice balance in the power curve. You wont drop an armored foe with a pistol in one shot, but you are going to mess him up a bit, even if its just from the stun damage. |
I think this is one of the worst changes made in SR4.
The fact that in SR3, you basically go from being fine to being fucked as a result of one bullet that got through and did damage, rather than watching your hit points be slowly whittled down is what made the SR3 damage monitor one of the best damage systems out there.
| QUOTE (mintcar) |
| Another unwanted (I think?) consequence would be that pure luck would have much more to do with you´re survival if you did it like that. With fixed tn there´s really no telling how many successes you will get. So if the street thug gets 4 successes on his 5 measly dice and you´re bad ass samuraj gets 2 with his 12 body and armor dice, he may be dead. (My concern is that bad luck would have increasingly significant deadly consequences as a larger portion of the damage is determined by dice rolls. This would not mimic SR3 at all. For that reason increasing the DV´s might be a better choice for making the game deadlier) |
I was playing sr3 just yesterday actualy. Something very similar to your example here. Ganger starts with my char my char calls him we fight. GM gave the ganger i believe 5 skill in his spurs 3kp and maybe 8 cp(not completely sure on this last part wasn't paying that close attention to the rolls). My char sits at 8 skill in hand razors, and 12 cp with a kp of 3.
Twice, twice in this combat did i roll atleast 12 dice and came up with very marginal success. twice. Once it nearly got me in big trouble when he landed a blow on me, luckaly for me i managed to resist.
Now you're saying that in sr4 this is going to be a new problem? That you could, if lucks not on your side and lucks on the gangers side that you could get screwed and this is something new with sr4? No no you're dead wrong with that. Sr3 had it just as bad. if you screwed up a roll, or didn't get a lucky throw of the dice and your opponet did, there was a very good chance you were in for a world of hurt.
| QUOTE |
| Yeah. You can do that--what you lose is that in SR3 there were conditions where the runners couldn't do that due to TN penalties. They had to work for the right conditions, and then they could be very effective. In SR4, they're unlikely to have to work. You can set dice penalties such that they have to work, but those penalties might then too easily cripple those of lesser skills, providing a loophole--make things a little difficult, and the opposition is completely powerless. |
You can easily do this in sr4 with dicepool penalties. And I'm honestly not sure where you're going with the 'could too easily cripple those of lesser skills' increasing the tn in sr3 prety much crippled those of lower skills. I mean come on now.
"Well in sr3 you could make things imposible with tn's so the runners have to work for things. But in sr4 if you do the same style of penalties it makes them worthless."
What have runners forgotten how to work hard? In all honesty in Sr3, that sec guy with smg's 3, SHOULD be a major threat to a runners life. But...he never really was in sr3. Runners basicaly ignored guys with smg's 3. They weren't realy a threat at all, he had 3 dice basicaly to shoot them, even though acording to things he was prety decent with a smg, and the chances of him doing alot were nil. Runners could just ignore him for the most part, fire a single pistol round, kill him in one shot and move on. Now in sr4 it looks like that won't quite be as easy to do, that guy who had smg's 3 is going to be a threat to a runners life. He isn't going to be just ignored or tossed off as he's just cannon fodder to get me to waste bullets. And so far because of that people are claiming, 'awww this sucks'.
| QUOTE |
| So in SR4 the only real defense appears to be a faster on the draw overpowering offense... |
Geek the mage first. I repeat, geek the mage first.
| QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet) |
| I was playing sr3 just yesterday actualy. Something very similar to your example here. Ganger starts with my char my char calls him we fight. GM gave the ganger i believe 5 skill in his spurs 3kp and maybe 8 cp(not completely sure on this last part wasn't paying that close attention to the rolls). My char sits at 8 skill in hand razors, and 12 cp with a kp of 3. Twice, twice in this combat did i roll atleast 12 dice and came up with very marginal success. twice. Once it nearly got me in big trouble when he landed a blow on me, luckaly for me i managed to resist. |
A combat pool of 12? How does that happen with a character with only 3 points of Karma pool?
| QUOTE (mmu1 @ Aug 24 2005, 08:08 AM) | ||
A combat pool of 12? How does that happen with a character with only 3 points of Karma pool? |
Oh quite easily actualy, amazing what you can do out of chargen in sr3.
And to note with this character I have yet to spend a point of karma on a skill or stat.
--------------------------------> Attributes <---------------------------------
Body : 3 Charisma : 3 Essence : 6 (2.96)
Quickness : 6 (11) Intelligence : 6 ( 8 ) Body Index : 0 (3.95)
Strength : 4 ( 6) Willpower : 5 Magic : 0
Reaction : 6 (12) Initiative : 12 + 2D6 Armor : 0/ 0
--------------------------------> Dice Pools <---------------------------------
Combat.............12/12 Task............... 1/1 Karma.............. 3/3
-------------------------------> Active Skills <-------------------------------
Athletics..................... 3 (5) Electronics B/R............... 1 (2)
Biotech....................... 6 (7) +- Security Systems......... 3 (4)
Cyber-Implant Combat.......... 5 (6) Etiquette........................ 3
+- Hand Razors.............. 7 ( 8 ) Pistols....................... 5 (6)
Electronics................... 2 (3) +- Steyr TMP................ 7 ( 8 )
+- Maglocks................. 4 (5) Stealth....................... 5 (7)
-----------------------------> Knowledge Skills <------------------------------
Club Dancing..................... 3 Musical Theory................... 3
Cooking.......................... 6 Navigation....................... 3
Making Cardbord Houses........... 6 Scrounging....................... 6
Meditation....................... 2 Singing.......................... 4
Metahumanity..................... 3 Underworld Pologitcs............. 4
---------------------------------> Languages <---------------------------------
Ancient Egyptian................. 2 English.......................... 4
Arabic........................... 3 Japanese......................... 3
---------------------------------> Cyberware <---------------------------------
Name Rtg. Grade Ess. Cost
Move-by-Wire 1 Alpha 2
SmartLink-2 Package Alpha 0.4
Induction Pad Alpha 0.08
Datajack 0.2
Hand Razors, Improved (Retractable) 0.2
Cybereyes, Pair Alpha 0.16
+- Flare Compensation Alpha 0.08
+- Thermographic Alpha 0.16
+- Retinal Clock Alpha 0.08
----------------------------------> Bioware <----------------------------------
Name Rtg. Grade BI cost
Muscle Toner 4 1.6
Muscle Augmentation 2 0.8
Scent Glands 0.1
Sensitive Skin 0.2
Enhanced Articulation Cultured 0.45
Cerebral Booster 2 0.8
------------------------------> SIN Information <------------------------------
1. UCAS-01589-0009PD-0003PY-DLD Kylara Nevrise Real
---------------------------------> Contacts <----------------------------------
Toren Fixer 1 Adjunct Decker 1
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet) |
| Oh quite easily actualy, amazing what you can do out of chargen in sr3. |
Ah. Well, I suppose I was expecting something a little more... viable.
| QUOTE (mmu1) | ||
Ah. Well, I suppose I was expecting something a little more... viable. |
Heh, the char is actualy surprisingly viable if played the way it was designed. There is a reason she has razors instead of spurs. There are reasons she uses machine pistols instead of say, smg's. The char is amazingly effective at what she does.
| QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet) | ||||
Heh, the char is actualy surprisingly viable if played the way it was designed. There is a reason she has razors instead of spurs. There are reasons she uses machine pistols instead of say, smg's. The char is amazingly effective at what she does. |
I take it melee combat is not one of those, then?
From the looks of things, stealth is what this character does. 7 dice, plus enhanced articulation and move by wire.
Don't forget that in hand to hand, the razors have the option of using improved blades to up the power (which this character has taken). 8L can beat 6M when you're going up against armor.
Don't forget that in hand to hand, the razors have the option of using improved blades to up the power (which this character has taken). 8L can beat 6M when you're going up against armor.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| P.S. I kinda always disliked reliable one-shot killing of grunts anyway. Kill them with a single Complex, sure. But easily with a simple action without breaking out the big guns (serious Sniper rifle, BF ex-ex shotgun slugs, etc.). I think it makes the trail of corpses option a little too tempting. But that is style preference, and there are other ways a GM can discourage it. |
Yeah, to one shot a bunch of grunts you need a rickshaw, an earth elemental and some plastic explosives
PS... Yes I'm ashamed to say this actually came up in the game Blakkie and I play.
| QUOTE (morlock76) |
| ... I fully agree on the offense issue though, and if you ask me, thats the way its supposed to be. Must be a reason most ppl dive for cover when the lead gets flying IRL. ... |
Erm that's part of the reason I posted that message, diving for cover dosen't save you, nothing does. Since that post, I've developed two 'better' versions of the above character:
Mr Saint of Killers, who just rolls 24 dice, without using edge. Diving for cover, running, being at extreme range, they just won't help.
For true ridiculousness, I give you Mr Blind Justice. You see, he's blind (taking a -6 modifier to shooting you) and he can still throw 15 dice to kill you with. The fact that he is freaking blind but still can shoot well enough to kill you... Sigh, was this game play-tested at all?
| QUOTE |
| For true ridiculousness, I give you Mr Blind Justice. You see, he's blind (taking a -6 modifier to shooting you) and he can still throw 15 dice to kill you with. The fact that he is freaking blind but still can shoot well enough to kill you... Sigh, was this game play-tested at all? |
Agreed. Though at this point I'd start exercising GM discretion. There comes a point where you've just got to say:
"Look into the whites of my eyes. This is stupid. I don't care what the rules do or do not say, you are not getting away with this."
I had to do that with the amazing drop earth elemental scam one player tried to pull. ( He got it from this forum I believe too. You guys are such a bad influence )
I'm still hashing out what I'm going to do about dice modifiers that simply don't do the job. I simply don't have enough info on all of them to make an informed guess.
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) | ||
Erm that's part of the reason I posted that message, diving for cover dosen't save you, nothing does. Since that post, I've developed two 'better' versions of the above character: Mr Saint of Killers, who just rolls 24 dice, without using edge. Diving for cover, running, being at extreme range, they just won't help. For true ridiculousness, I give you Mr Blind Justice. You see, he's blind (taking a -6 modifier to shooting you) and he can still throw 15 dice to kill you with. The fact that he is freaking blind but still can shoot well enough to kill you... Sigh, was this game play-tested at all? |
Horray. you figured out a way to roll 24 dice. Are you proud?
Now what does 24 dice mean?
It means you're very good at what you do. But is it broken. I would wager no.
In exalted theres a fixed tn of 7. Anything from 7-10 is a sux on a 10 sided die. 10's count as 2 sux. Thus the chance of even getting a single sux is 7% higher than sr4.
Something like you're talking about there? common place. Out of chargen i could roll just about the same amount of dice, and using powers pop even more dice. But why doesn't it matter?
Lets see. You're good at one thing and medoicre at everything else. You're the perverbial one trick pony. Heck you're prety much the definition of it. And more ballanced chars? Yeah they can hand you your ass.
In sr4 its looking about the same. With the bp costs and restrictions at chargen. Sure, if your GM lets you, you can throw 24 dice at a oponent. But I bet you'll be suffering when the other three guards toss a nade and put 4 bursts into you. Afterall after you pop the first two so easily you're the biggest threat, and the high priority target. Regardless, your ace card, that ultimate weapons skill, is now worthless because you're getting shredded by bullets and you have a grenade to wory about. Have fun with that.
| QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Aug 24 2005, 01:19 PM) |
| In sr4 its looking about the same. With the bp costs and restrictions at chargen. Sure, if your GM lets you, you can throw 24 dice at a oponent. But I bet you'll be suffering when the other three guards toss a nade and put 4 bursts into you. Afterall after you pop the first two so easily you're the biggest threat, and the high priority target. Regardless, your ace card, that ultimate weapons skill, is now worthless because you're getting shredded by bullets and you have a grenade to wory about. Have fun with that. |
"No, it's not a problem that you made a specialized character. I'll just completely metagame the way the NPCs act and fuck you over repeatedly till you wish you hadn't, and it'll balance out."
| QUOTE (imperialus @ Aug 24 2005, 09:48 AM) | ||
Yeah, to one shot a bunch of grunts you need a rickshaw, an earth elemental and some plastic explosives PS... Yes I'm ashamed to say this actually came up in the game Blakkie and I play. |
Bah, that is quite tame compared to the Car-battoir or that-which-involves-squeege-kids-that-we-do-not-speak-of. Plus i wasn't at the session when the Rickshaw Gambit was designed and approved, so my hands are fully clean of that.
| QUOTE (mmu1) | ||
"No, it's not a problem that you made a specialized character. I'll just completely metagame the way the NPCs act and fuck you over repeatedly till you wish you hadn't, and it'll balance out." |
In which way is basing NPC actions on events the NPC witnessed 'metagaming'?
Yeah, it's not metagaming if the NPCs act off of what they see.
Again, if you take the Alternate Combat suggestion on p69 of using Thresholds instead of a defense roll using Reaction, a lot of these One-Trick-Pony concerns suddenly melt away. In fact, I'm proposing to my gaming group that we run a "hybrid" system, where Thresholds are used if the target isn't actively "dodging", and the target can choose to actively dodge or rely on their cover/range modifiers.
| QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 24 2005, 01:53 PM) | ||||
In which way is basing NPC actions on events the NPC witnessed 'metagaming'? |
Hmm... Let me count the reasons:
1. Do the NPCs always know who fired the killing shot in a heated firefight?
2. How do they tell the difference between a shot fired with mediocre skill that killed their friend, and a shot fired with very high skill that killed their friend? A shot was fired, a man was hit. They have no knowledge of boxes of damage and how many dice you need to have to reliably drop someone in one shot. I'd imagine that most of the time, they'd shoot at either the nearest / largest target, or at whoever they notice first - for whatever reason. Do guards in this game always kill the PC that draws first blood?
3. The idea that the guards have the ability to easily kill a runner by concentrating their fire but only use it on players who displease the GM, instead of simply methodically eliminating the whole team (since there are usually more guards than runners) is pure metagaming... As is the idea that, rather than falling back and rolling a few grenades around the corner (since they have them) they'll just happily go out and be shot. (Because avoiding holes in corporate property is more important than going home at the end of the night, yes?)
The guards either have the ability to slaughter the PCs or they don't, and they should act consistently, rather than changing their tactics to nail a particular character.
4. Even if you can invent in-game reasons and justifications for killing off a player over somethin that came about because of OOC considerations... what is that, if not metagaming?
| QUOTE (mmu1) |
| The guards either have the ability to slaughter the PCs or they don't, and they should act consistently, rather than changing their tactics to nail a particular character. |
Except, of course, if that particular character is a mage and happened to chuck a manabolt the previous turn.
| QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 24 2005, 02:26 PM) | ||
Except, of course, if that particular character is a mage and happened to chuck a manabolt the previous turn. |
I never said there are no valid in-game reasons for enemies to change tactics.
Just that having a high pistol skill doesn't mean you have a flashing "shoot me" sign over you, and isn't necessarily one of those reasons... Unlike something like slinging deadly magic around, or toting a gyro-stabilized MMG, or being a 600 pound troll carrying an axe and dressed in garish pink, or something...
| QUOTE (mmu1) |
| or being a 600 pound troll dressed in garish pink, or something... |
I think this makes you a target, just on principle.
How about if the guards just saw their security armored comrade smoothly dropped by a single, extremely precise shot from a Tiffani Needler hold-out? Ability is more than just a number. I typically describe small visual clues of a drek smooth operator to to players, sometimes without even a perception roll if i judge it so far beyond the norm that it is obvious. Generally i'm going to give the same [fair IMO] treatment to NPCs.
From there it seems logical to me that they have a "holy f*ck" reaction, which is likely to bring about the same reaction as the "geek the mage" reaction brought on by a spell casting. Namely target the obvious highest threat with an effort like you life depended on it. And/or run away.
P.S. And no, i wouldn't do it just because i was pissed off. Because i likely wouldn't be. It is just that life tends to hammer down the nail that sticks up.
From there it seems logical to me that they have a "holy f*ck" reaction, which is likely to bring about the same reaction as the "geek the mage" reaction brought on by a spell casting. Namely target the obvious highest threat with an effort like you life depended on it. And/or run away.
P.S. And no, i wouldn't do it just because i was pissed off. Because i likely wouldn't be. It is just that life tends to hammer down the nail that sticks up.
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