In which case, just take the skills at 1 ...

Unfortunately Narmio... I'm afraid there actually are GMs out there wou WOULDN'T slap them about the head with the largest rulebook on hand... Glad I'm not one of them!

Winter

It's good from that vaunted role-playing perspective. What sense does it make for a character to be Unaware of a skill that he or she would use?

Face it, the problem arises when the skill is being used properly.

~J

Waited for this so long, the "I Hate SR4" comments and threads had becoming so rare the last days. Thank you.

In a similar vein, I'm considering building a magician character with Incompetencies in all 3 firearms skills. Given how integral guns are to this game, I'd rule that as a fair use of this quality.

And I agree, Hahnsoo's solution fits in quite well.

And this is why Sr4 is hard cover? Ahhh it all becomes clear now.

And Spook, I (as a GM) would never let that fly for 15 points either. A runner who just hasent a CLUE on how to fire a gun? Mage or not, he/she would be a laughing stock.

Don't use it, because as written, it makes no sense? It's either crippling, or free points, with no happy middle ground.

Ugh. There's too much GM-fiat bulldrek in the rules already.

Aku, that's already the way it works. No defaulting, no buying the skill.

~J

I don't see it as quite the problem. In this particular case, the mage has skillwires, a backup pistol, and a skillsoft allowing him to use it (somewhat). Besides, my mage relies on the street sams to provide physical protection, just like they rely on him for spellcraft. Pure street sams don't waste build points on magic; why should a mage have to waste points on mundane weapon skills?

If anything, it reinforces my character's combat philosophy -"if you see me pull out my gun, we're fucked."

No, it should not criple the charictor, but it should be inconvient. Like a Sam with Incompetent: Drive. Now he can be a verry good sam without ever stepping behind the wheel, but it is darn inconvient. Even the Mage with no ranks in drive can get behind the wheel of a car and drive ok, he can get you to the stuffer shack in noon traffic with minimal panic. But Mr 'I can't drive' Sammie? He has trouble geting out of parking lots and staying in his lane is a problem. He is dependent on others for rides and public transportation. If the team is realy banged up, the Mage from above could drive the van to get the team away (while not optimal, he can do it) but Sam? Not unless the team wants to go 20 miles per hour and weave down the road. (and lord help them if it is a stick)

Consept should be important. Shawman who was raised by some 'get back to nature' neo hippies with Incompident: Computer, or a Mage who is honest to a fault taking Incopmident: Bluff. That sort of thing.

I wouldn't, but that is because I am evil. No... If a mage took Incompetance (Aeronautics Mechanic) in my game there would be a run which required him to fly in an airplane alone with an NPC pilot. I would roll 1 D6 behind the GM screen and then inform the (if a PC) or have the NPC pilot inform the mage, that the landing gear has malfunctioned and the mage has to climb or levitate outside the the plane and repair the landing gear using the skill that he is incompentant in. As incentive to have him not just abandon the plane, the cargo would be such that if he does abandon it he would have gain the Hunted: Lowfyr negative quality.

No, this plane have a half-dozen napalm bombs mounted underwing. And their remote release mechasism is broken too, so the only way to release them is my physically pulling the manual emergency release handle....which is protected from remote magic manipulation by a locked spell that will drop a cow from near-earth orbit on the caster or summoner that trys to use telekinesis or a spirit to release it....and besides the emergency release handle is very technically advanced, so you have to roll a Aeronautical Mechanic check to open....on and the struts holding the bomb also have the same magical protection so you can just blast or break them off.

Oh, and the NPC is now pointing a Predator IV at the mage's head saying "get the hell out there you chicken shit and fix this damn plane or i'm going to move you up to the front of the line for organ donations."

Actually, in this particular thread, that was more of a joke than anything. This issue has a very easy fix, and several not-so-easy-but-still-work fixes (just kidding guys), and wouldn't be a real reason to not like the game in and of itself.

It's the other "issues" gleaned from threads, SR website, et al that keep me from liking the game.

(Okay, now I sit back and wait for some genius to come in and say "you can't know if you haven't read it" or some such illogical nonsense.)

Dikoted, or not?

As for the Incompetent Quality, if it doesn't say so in the book that you cannot take Incompetent in an italicized (ergo non-defaultable) skill, then it should. I'm pretty confident that it's in the spirit of the rules, and would expect that it's worthy of being listed as an erratum or clarification.

For skills which one can default to, though, it's only a 5-point negative quality, which hardly seems game-breaking. Furthermore, since there's an upper limit on negative qualities, it's not going to be that dangerous.

As for other negative qualities, one of my players took Allergy (cats) at the middle level. I've noticed that he'll take an additional 4 boxes of damage from any weapon made from cats. Hmmm...

Your not kidding, this is like the third time I have heard it said the GM has to stop this from happening. This is like the hard caps on atts and skills in the beginning. I don't recall so many GM fiats in 3rd ed.

You have already forgotten the Edges & Flaws from SR3? Good, your journey to the SR4-side is almost complete. Now, take this Dikoted Katana and use your Edge dice to strike me down to fulfill your destiny!