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Jürgen Hubert
Out of curiosity...
morlock76
The rules as they were needed the overhaul, specially in the tech department.

SR4 isnt perfect, neither is any other SR or RPG for that matter.

With the less clutter I may be able to attract more player to it and get back at GMing.

Ill think Ill convert my "Queen Euphoria" to SR4 sometime and see what happens.
blakkie
You probably should have put in a few more options. Like "Convert some time this year", "Convert to SR4 when our campaign timeline makes it there", "Convert to SR4 when one or more of the supplmental books come out", "Not sure yet", and "SR4what? Who? Huh, i thought this was a recipeswap board?".
Marc Hameleers
My option isn't there..

We weren't playing shadowrun, a fter a second try to run shadowrun 3rd again came bogged down in rules.

A short while ago, in anticipation of Shadowrun 4, we used Savage Worlds in the Shadowrun setting.

Now, we will test shadowrun 4. I like what i see so far, but we still need to playtest it. My guess is that we will find the streamlined rules of the 4th edition muchmore suited for us then 3rd, and that we might use them.


Marc
Ranneko
I siad switch asap, but it is most likely to be a combination, I'm in two campaigns, and one was just started and is just after YOTC, so I doubt we will change with that one.

But the other is likely to be stopped, and us starting an SR4 campaign, mainly because the GM seems eager for a more street level setting.
Daishi440
I think I'll stick with SR3 because I don't like what they have done to the background.

I liked the background, then they fast forward by 5 years, and kill off half the cast.

That sucks.

And the rules may be simpler but that doesn't necessarily make them better.
Aku
don't forget though, that IIRC, ALOT of "the cast" came from SR1 which started when? 2055? thats 15 years of criminal activity, and not the lofty, easy tax evasion stuff either
Lindt
I need to play test it first. I know I still have a few things Ill keep my Sr3 books close at hand for though.
MYST1C
I haven't played a real serious session of SR since 3rd Ed came out because at the same time the transition from school to university scattered my gaming group throughout the country.
So while I own many SR3 books and am quite aware of the ongoing plotlines I don't actually know most of the rules (especially Matrix and Magic).

To me SR4 is very welcome. It finally overcomes much of the clumsiness and stupidity of the former editions ("SR1 had broken concealability/weapon damage/weight rules, SR2 had broken concealability/weapon damage/weight rules - we must keep them in SR3!").
I feel inspired to restart Shadowrun. Learn new (supposedly simpler and maybe even better) rules, found a new group, create new characters, tell new stories.

So I'm very much looking forward to October - travelling to the Essen SPIEL fair, visiting the FanPro booth and grabbing my copy of SR4.01d.
JongWK
QUOTE (Aku)
don't forget though, that IIRC, ALOT of "the cast" came from SR1 which started when? 2055? thats 15 years of criminal activity, and not the lofty, easy tax evasion stuff either

IIRC, SR1 began in 2050 or so.
Sabosect
I'm playing both SR3 and SR4. The reason is that the style of SR4 makes it incompatible with certain styles of play and unable to be truly adaptive.
blakkie
QUOTE (Sabosect)
I'm playing both SR3 and SR4. The reason is that the style of SR4 makes it incompatible with certain styles of play and unable to be truly adaptive.

I'm curious what style that is? Not saying you are wrong. In fact it makes sense that it would be difficult to be overly flexible with something you don't know very well.

Just curious.
Kyoto Kid
I will stick with SR3 for now for two reasons


First: the campaign arc I am running needs to play itself out Just too messy to switch over at this juncture since so much has changed. With the advance in the timeline, a number of plot devices and themes (such as decks and some implants) have been rendered obsolete.

Second: Until several of the key sourcebooks - Magic, Hacking, Cybertech, and Expanded Combat (what ever their titles will be) come out. Most of my players agree as well since they like the extra detail these supplements offer.

This will also give me time to become thoroughly familiar with the new rules. I will test things out with a couple of "Saturday Night Firefight" sessions which will not be part of the existing campaign. There will be no character conversions from SR3 since the characters will be more likely to retire from shadowrunning (of course, should they succeed on the final mission).

I am a little disappointed since I was working up the first part of the story arc as a possible adventure scenario submission. Unfortunately the changes under SR4 are so drastic in some circumstances that the entire adventure falls apart were it to be converted straight over.

Such are the fortunes of game writing.
Sabosect
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Sep 1 2005, 02:16 PM)
I'm playing both SR3 and SR4. The reason is that the style of SR4 makes it incompatible with certain styles of play and unable to be truly adaptive.

I'm curious what style that is? Not saying you are wrong. In fact it makes sense that it would be difficult to be overly flexible with something you don't know very well.

Just curious.

Well, for one, the ultracorp high-powered campaign. I at first thought this could be solved by a simple case of tweaking availability and build points (the SR3 solution), but then I ran afoul of the dice system and realized I would potentially have to rewrite the modifiers to make it viable. Then, while doing that, I realized the modifiers and Threshhold were meant to work together, and thus I was left at the option of reworking both or just reworking one of them. Then, I looked at the chargen system and realized I needed to test BPs with it in order to make sure I am able to maintain game balance.

At that point, I closed the PDF, took some aspirine, and pulled out my SR3 books.
Ellery
It's also less useful for low powered campaigns, unless by "low powered" you mean "fails almost all the time at easy stuff". In SR3, people with two dice could reliably succeed against TN2. SR4 plays more like slapstick comedy. ("I miss!" "I dodge into the bullet!" "I drive the getaway car into a wall!" "I swing at my opponent and hit myself in the face!")
Raskolnikov
They stumbled onto the Three Stooges: The Yukkening. They need to rebrand and put that on the shelves.
the_dunner
QUOTE (Ellery)
In SR3, people with two dice could reliably succeed against TN2.

Keep in mind that someone in SR4 with only two dice is doing something that they're not good at. For an average person (Stat 3), this is defaulting (-1 die penalty). So, for instance, your average teenager who's a first time driver trying to do "something tricky". Keep in mind that, just to have average attributes across the board, for a human, requires 320 build point characters. (1/2 points on stats 20X8 = 160). If you decide that you want to play 200 point characters, you're not just low powered, you're looking at an average attribute of less than 3. That's characters with mental or physical issues.
Autarkis
QUOTE (Ellery)
In SR3, people with two dice could reliably succeed against TN2.  SR4 plays more like slapstick comedy.

In SR3, a TN2 meant that they are -2 from the default TN4.

In SR4, this equates to getting about an extra 2 dice.

This may not be 100% accurate, since they are based on two different probability schemes, but is essentially true.
Ellery
Children have "mental and physical issues", i.e. the issue that they're not grown up yet.

A two dice bonus in SR4 does help with reliability, but a two-dice penalty then makes the task utterly impossible. That's not very good scaling.

Plus I'm not sure I'd characterize an 80% chance of success "reliable".
Nerbert
And what is it exactly that Children are supposed to be doing with such reliability?

Maybe if there were tests for soiling oneself, but there isn't one. You can just do it. Like you just did all over your argument.
Sabosect
Or, Nerbert, like you did?

Children range in age from newborn to 18, depending on where you live. Now, you mean to tell me that all a 15 year old can do is soil themselves?

No wonder people have no faith in this generation.
Ellery
That's a very compelling argument. Clearly, there is nothing to be done between soiling oneself and being a full-fledged runner.
Doomclown
QUOTE (the_dunner)
If you decide that you want to play 200 point characters, you're not just low powered, you're looking at an average attribute of less than 3.  That's characters with mental or physical issues.

See, that sounds like a good time to me. Roll out the Wheelchair Runners!
Sabosect
For some reason, I have a picture of a rigger with a chair altered to be able to do 200 kph speeding away from a pharmacy he just knocked over, cackling with glee at getting two years's of his prescriptions for the price of only two canings.
Nerbert
QUOTE (Ellery @ Sep 1 2005, 07:41 PM)
That's a very compelling argument.  Clearly, there is nothing to be done between soiling oneself and being a full-fledged runner.

Thats why I asked the question Ellery. What kind of tests are these children doing? They only have two dice! Why are people letting them drive the getaway car? Why are they dodging bullets and getting into fist fights with obviously more skilled and able combatants? Why are they doing these things?

This is the core of the issue. People with two dice won't fail at these tests because they won't be bother to do them. They'll let someone else do them and then they will go do something that they are much better at. And if worst comes to worst why, my oh my, thats what edge is there for!

Oh complain long and hard about all of these mechanics and then flat out refuse to put them in the context of any kind of reason. "People with 25 dice will succeed at everything!" you declare, waving your calculator in the air like it makes your point relevant. Well holy crap, they have 25 dice, why would they fail!? They have natural ability and trained skill and augmentation that defy the capacity of any logical or even illogical wazoo! If the so called "normal dice penalties" don't effect them, well so be it, they're damn good at what they do and they worked hard to get there. And yes, throwing a lot of BP and being able to do this at character creation is precisely the same as "the character worked hard to get where he is."

Children with two dice doing this and that. Who cares if they fail? They're not supposed to be playing with guns or driving anyway.
Ellery
They're probably not going on standard shadowruns. They may be trying to get through an electronic lock, run away from (or hurt) an "evil" adult who is trying to harm them, sneak somewhere without being noticed, steal a gun from a dimwitted gang member or a wallet from a clueless tourist, and so on.

There are lots and lots of things one can do besides go on shadowruns.
Nerbert
QUOTE (Ellery)
They're probably not going on standard shadowruns. They may be trying to get through an electronic lock, run away from (or hurt) an "evil" adult who is trying to harm them, sneak somewhere without being noticed, steal a gun from a dimwitted gang member or a wallet from a clueless tourist, and so on.

There are lots and lots of things one can do besides go on shadowruns.

Not with two dice they're not. With two dice it means that they can walk upright on their own power, and someone once showed them how to get through an electronic lock, but they've never actually tried it themselves.
Raskolnikov
Nice straw man Nerbert. People are talking about how low dice means not only lack of success but often consistent failure on any test in even favorable conditions. They weren't lamenting how someone with 24 dice is able to do everything. That is a separate grievance, which stems not from their ease of success, btw.
Nerbert
Its not a straw man! People say "two dice", but they give it no context. Context is "I have one in an attribute, I'm using a linked skill in which I have one rank, conditions offer no penalties or bonuses." Thats means you're untrained, and you suck at what you're trying to do, and the environment is neither hampering nor helping. Thats exactly the kind of situation in which you would be rolling two dice.

Another situation would be if you have a normal sized dice pool and there are modifiers. In which case you may know and be apt at what you are doing, but the environment is actively conspiring against your effort. It may be slippery or who knows. Why would you expect to succeed with ease? Whatever is happening is causing you to be reduced to the same chances as a person with no training or aptitude.

Either way I would be thinking "Gee, I hope this isn't a task that is vital for my survival or else I might be better off just soiling myself."
Sabosect
QUOTE (Nerbert @ Sep 1 2005, 07:48 PM)
Thats why I asked the question Ellery.  What kind of tests are these children doing?  They only have two dice!  Why are people letting them drive the getaway car?  Why are they dodging bullets and getting into fist fights with obviously more skilled and able combatants?  Why are they doing these things?

Ever hear of the otaku? Or how many gang members get recruited as children? Hell, the game I'm playing as a 16 year old decker who can give any megacorp decker a run for their money. Or, better yet, the occasional child going to prison as a convicted murderer?

Just because they are children doesn't mean they are useless or unable to do some serious damage. Because they are a child means people like you are easy prey for them.

QUOTE
This is the core of the issue. People with two dice won't fail at these tests because they won't be bother to do them. They'll let someone else do them and then they will go do something that they are much better at. And if worst comes to worst why, my oh my, thats what edge is there for!


Uh huh. Sure. Tell you what: You play a mage with only two dice in physical, I'll ambush you with 20 hellhounds and make sure you use up all your magic. Then, we'll see how well you beg for your life while being ripped to shreds.

QUOTE
Oh complain long and hard about all of these mechanics and then flat out refuse to put them in the context of any kind of reason. "People with 25 dice will succeed at everything!" you declare, waving your calculator in the air like it makes your point relevant. Well holy crap, they have 25 dice, why would they fail!? They have natural ability and trained skill and augmentation that defy the capacity of any logical or even illogical wazoo! If the so called "normal dice penalties" don't effect them, well so be it, they're damn good at what they do and they worked hard to get there. And yes, throwing a lot of BP and being able to do this at character creation is precisely the same as "the character worked hard to get where he is."


How about "I've seen people with 23 dice thrown out on here without even having to take full min/maxing skills to it"? And don't try the "They'll suck at everything else!" bullshit, as with the book and a skilled munchkin I can probably find ways to make sure they don't.

Oh, and nice way to prove what people have been saying about the game breaking down at higher levels.

QUOTE
Children with two dice doing this and that. Who cares if they fail? They're not supposed to be playing with guns or driving anyway.


And people online are not supposed to be planning criminal activities, talking about nuclear devices, or using their brains to plan out activities that are certainly illegal in the game they play and mostly illegal outside of it. Guess what? Life doesn't care what people are supposed to do.
Fortune
QUOTE (Nerbert @ Sep 2 2005, 11:04 AM)
Its not a straw man!  People say "two dice", but they give it no context.

Context was given. An Average human (Attribute 3) performing an easy task in a skill for which he has no formal training (Skill 0 ... listed as untrained, but not unaware).
nezumi
I'm sticking with SR3 for everyone but the decker in my game, because he amuses me so with his crazy-talk.
Blacken
SR3 for me.
flowswithdrek
Gona give SR4 a blast as soon as i get my hands on a copy, I quite liked third edition but the games just kept getting bogged down with rules and players seemed to vanish, hopefully with the 4th edition i can get some intrest going again.
Supercilious
30% of those polled do not play SR4. Ouch.
Gort
Forgive me if I reckon it's just a little too early to judge the success or failure of SR4 on that.
Supercilious
Anecdotal evidence is all I will ever get from this board.

If only Fanpro were a publicly traded company, I could just peek at their earnings as know...
blakkie
QUOTE (Supercilious @ Sep 2 2005, 09:58 AM)
30% of those polled do not play SR4. Ouch.

Yet likely at least 90% have bought at least the PDF. Of that a very large portion also will continue to purchase many of the SR4 books, particularly the setting ones. *shrug*

P.S. Besides the questionable sampling set of all polls on the board, i think this set of questions was rather forceful in the limited number of options and wording. You still see the same 15-17% core "screw SR4" that has been there for months, seemingly the same people still here if now more moved into lurking mode.
SirBedevere
As has been repeated ad nauseam, Dumpshock is hardly a representative sample of Shadowrun players.

The important question is 'how many new players will SR4 bring in?'. We won't know that until the SR4 hardcopy has been on sale for a while.
Marc Hameleers
Not exactly new, but this edition might very well see our group play with the shadowrun rules agian, 3rd being just too much for our taste.

i've heard others on other boards saying the same. So who knows, time will tell
Autarkis
True. We stopped playing Shadowrun right about the time SR3 came out. SR4 has peaked the interest of several of my "old" school gaming buddies (and from emails from friends who have moved away, elsewhere also) and we will be starting a SR4 campaign.

<shrug>
Kyoto Kid
The more I have read (and thought) about SR4 the more I see myself staying with SR3. As I have mentioned in other threads, I enjoy character growth, this is why I enjoy RPGs in the first place. SR4 limits it too much. IMHO I think that the whole "defeat the Munchkin though changing the rules" idea is totally knee jerk. This is up to the GM whether he or she wants over powered over balanced characters or not in a campaign. It should not be the pervue of the rules to dictate this.

SR3 may have its faults, but at least it is still entertaining to both play and run.

For those of you who will stay the SR3 course "Rhapsody in Shadow" is coming. I will release the Adventure arc after I have finished running the it with my players.
Kyoto Kid
The more I have read (and thought) about SR4 the more I see myself staying with SR3. As I have mentioned in other threads, I enjoy character growth, this is why I enjoy RPGs in the first place. SR4 limits it too much. IMHO I think that the whole "defeat the Munchkin though changing the rules" idea is totally knee jerk. This is up to the GM whether he or she wants over powered over balanced characters or not in a campaign. It should not be the pervue of the rules to dictate this.

SR3 may have its faults, but at least it is still entertaining to both play and run.

For those of you who will stay the SR3 course "Rhapsody in Shadow" is coming. I will release the Adventure arc after I have finished running the it with my players.
SirBedevere
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
For those of you who will stay the SR3 course "Rhapsody in Shadow" is coming. I will release the Adventure arc after I have finished running the it with my players.

Look forward to it.
Earthwalker
Of course my option wasnt there which is. I am going to buy SR4 and play it for a while. If i find it works for me I will keep it. If not I will move back to SR3.

Either way I will be still buying SR books and playing some version of it.

Jrayjoker
I voted for switching, but I plan on running a SR3 campaign concurrently with a SR4 campaign. So, not really leaving, just adding on.
booklord
I'm going to SR4.
I will house rule it until it resembles SR3!
I will have all SR3 characters converted to SR4!
I am committed!

wobble.gif wobble.gif wobble.gif wobble.gif

That said, I think there is some promise in the new rules. There were areas in SR3 that were barely working.
1) Melee Combat
2) Automatic fire
3) Overpowerful Target Modifiers
I'm hoping that the new rules solve some of these.

Now I've just got to house-rule to get past the
1) Severe attribute domination over skills.
2) Underpowerful dice modifiers.
3) Little ability to resist damage even in full armor
4) Little ability to inflict deadly wounds with small caliber weapons or spells.
5) etc.
Gomez
QUOTE (Autarkis)
True. We stopped playing Shadowrun right about the time SR3 came out. SR4 has peaked the interest of several of my "old" school gaming buddies (and from emails from friends who have moved away, elsewhere also) and we will be starting a SR4 campaign.

<shrug>

Same thing with me and my gaming group. We are excited to get back into a Shadowrun game. I am GM'ing a campaign in the near future.
Xenith
I'll use SR4, just with some modified house rules (slightly higher skill cap, threshold modification, and a few other things, nothing all that bad just enhances the gameplay I think).

I still say they need to change a few rules in the book.... but oh well.
Xenith
I'll use SR4, just with some modified house rules (slightly higher skill cap, threshold modification, and a few other things, nothing all that bad just enhances the gameplay I think).

I still say they need to change a few rules in the book.... but oh well.
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