IIRC, SR1 began in 2050 or so.

I'm curious what style that is? Not saying you are wrong. In fact it makes sense that it would be difficult to be overly flexible with something you don't know very well.

Just curious.

Well, for one, the ultracorp high-powered campaign. I at first thought this could be solved by a simple case of tweaking availability and build points (the SR3 solution), but then I ran afoul of the dice system and realized I would potentially have to rewrite the modifiers to make it viable. Then, while doing that, I realized the modifiers and Threshhold were meant to work together, and thus I was left at the option of reworking both or just reworking one of them. Then, I looked at the chargen system and realized I needed to test BPs with it in order to make sure I am able to maintain game balance.

At that point, I closed the PDF, took some aspirine, and pulled out my SR3 books.

Keep in mind that someone in SR4 with only two dice is doing something that they're not good at. For an average person (Stat 3), this is defaulting (-1 die penalty). So, for instance, your average teenager who's a first time driver trying to do "something tricky". Keep in mind that, just to have average attributes across the board, for a human, requires 320 build point characters. (1/2 points on stats 20X8 = 160). If you decide that you want to play 200 point characters, you're not just low powered, you're looking at an average attribute of less than 3. That's characters with mental or physical issues.

In SR3, a TN2 meant that they are -2 from the default TN4.

In SR4, this equates to getting about an extra 2 dice.

This may not be 100% accurate, since they are based on two different probability schemes, but is essentially true.

See, that sounds like a good time to me. Roll out the Wheelchair Runners!

Thats why I asked the question Ellery. What kind of tests are these children doing? They only have two dice! Why are people letting them drive the getaway car? Why are they dodging bullets and getting into fist fights with obviously more skilled and able combatants? Why are they doing these things?

This is the core of the issue. People with two dice won't fail at these tests because they won't be bother to do them. They'll let someone else do them and then they will go do something that they are much better at. And if worst comes to worst why, my oh my, thats what edge is there for!

Oh complain long and hard about all of these mechanics and then flat out refuse to put them in the context of any kind of reason. "People with 25 dice will succeed at everything!" you declare, waving your calculator in the air like it makes your point relevant. Well holy crap, they have 25 dice, why would they fail!? They have natural ability and trained skill and augmentation that defy the capacity of any logical or even illogical wazoo! If the so called "normal dice penalties" don't effect them, well so be it, they're damn good at what they do and they worked hard to get there. And yes, throwing a lot of BP and being able to do this at character creation is precisely the same as "the character worked hard to get where he is."

Children with two dice doing this and that. Who cares if they fail? They're not supposed to be playing with guns or driving anyway.

Not with two dice they're not. With two dice it means that they can walk upright on their own power, and someone once showed them how to get through an electronic lock, but they've never actually tried it themselves.

Ever hear of the otaku? Or how many gang members get recruited as children? Hell, the game I'm playing as a 16 year old decker who can give any megacorp decker a run for their money. Or, better yet, the occasional child going to prison as a convicted murderer?

Just because they are children doesn't mean they are useless or unable to do some serious damage. Because they are a child means people like you are easy prey for them.

Uh huh. Sure. Tell you what: You play a mage with only two dice in physical, I'll ambush you with 20 hellhounds and make sure you use up all your magic. Then, we'll see how well you beg for your life while being ripped to shreds.

How about "I've seen people with 23 dice thrown out on here without even having to take full min/maxing skills to it"? And don't try the "They'll suck at everything else!" bullshit, as with the book and a skilled munchkin I can probably find ways to make sure they don't.

Oh, and nice way to prove what people have been saying about the game breaking down at higher levels.

And people online are not supposed to be planning criminal activities, talking about nuclear devices, or using their brains to plan out activities that are certainly illegal in the game they play and mostly illegal outside of it. Guess what? Life doesn't care what people are supposed to do.

Context was given. An Average human (Attribute 3) performing an easy task in a skill for which he has no formal training (Skill 0 ... listed as untrained, but not unaware).

Yet likely at least 90% have bought at least the PDF. Of that a very large portion also will continue to purchase many of the SR4 books, particularly the setting ones. *shrug*

P.S. Besides the questionable sampling set of all polls on the board, i think this set of questions was rather forceful in the limited number of options and wording. You still see the same 15-17% core "screw SR4" that has been there for months, seemingly the same people still here if now more moved into lurking mode.

Look forward to it.

Same thing with me and my gaming group. We are excited to get back into a Shadowrun game. I am GM'ing a campaign in the near future.