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Snow_Fox
I read through this section out of interest for Israel. There has been interesting references to Israel since first Ed. Not just the reference to them nuking Lybia, but little things-a quote from some techie saying osmething like "It's deffinately not israeli dispite the case." etc. made me wonder is israel a center of tech, spies what?

Well. I'm still knid of wondering. The whole chapter seemed to be "where are they now?" of the movers and shakers who are on the eveing news today, RL.

and the answer seems to be-right where they are in 2005. Almost litterally. Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, Iraq, Iran... plus ca change, plus ca le meme chose, n'est pas? .

I guess for discriptions and fashions and customs and such we just tune in to the local news. I found this really to be a let down. sorry guys.

The one thing that made me take notice was the very last entry. what is going on with the UIM? It first gets brought up with the leader assassinated who rises from the dead and we all speculated he was possessed by a Shgedim. In Loose Alliances we got a lot of detail to play with and now we seem to have a split between the split between the movment and Caliph of Arabia. Now this would seem to mirror the current rift developing between the ruling family of Saudi Arabia and the religous extremists following bin Laden.
(short history, for many years these two groups ignored each other. the understanding was the fundies could operate in SA as long as they didn't mess with the Royals. That has now changed.)

Was this a storey line that never developed or generated interest so the plot line is changing to create running options or to avoid offending muslim customers?
Elve
I think the plot line is finished in System Failure...
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
Was this a storey line that never developed or generated interest so the plot line is changing to create running options or to avoid offending muslim customers?


I can tell you that it wasn't the latter, but I can't really tell you what it is. Because I don't exactly know.

The whole UIM/Ibn Eisa/Middle East thing is sort of a mix of potential plot hooks, but never really evolved into a full major plotline (at least, it hasn't yet). I think part of the reasoning why it never really took off was that Shadowrun just doesn't have much focus in the Middle East. In SR3, runners were based out of Seattle, for the most part, and while there was an awkward (but earnest) attempt to globalize them, there wasn't really the support in place. So while there are a lot of potentially great ways to use the Middle Eastern plothooks, they seem really detached from most of Shadowrun's players in SR3. And it would have been odd to have a major plot focusing on the Middle East without the game support for the area (notice that nearly every SR plot event focused or had major effects in Seattle).

I like the direction SR4 is going with the multiple signature cities. I think this will give us the support, reason, and backing to try to branch out on plots. If there were a major shadowrunning city (with a lot of canon detail) in the Middle East, a major Middle Eastern plotline would make more sense.

EDIT: And yeah, there is more movement on the plot in System Failure.
toturi
OK, I've talked to some other guys(apart from my gaming group) in my FLGS about SOA and the general consensus was: If we wanted a history lesson, we would go buy a history book. Although the book was generally well written and taken in the context of 2064++SR and while we like the plot hooks and other game info, we feel that the writers could have been more creative. The general feel was (like Snow Fox has said) more things change the more they stay the same. What was portrayed as happening in the Asian countries in 2064++(apart from Japan) was an Awakened extrapolation from comtemporary histories of those countries.

Perhaps it is because the regions written are close to our hearts and we actually live where you are writing about that we do not feel the freshness that we get when we read SOE or SOAmerica.
Skarn Ka
QUOTE (Snow_Fox)

Well. I'm still knid of wondering. The whole chapter seemed to be "where are they now?" of the movers and shakers who are on the eveing news today, RL.


I see some truth to this comment, but some situations are definitely not the same: Palestine (on its way to being a state), the status of Jerusalem...

Now I agree the situation is still in flux and didn't change THAT radically.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
OK, I've talked to some other guys(apart from my gaming group) in my FLGS about SOA and the general consensus was: If we wanted a history lesson, we would go buy a history book. Although the book was generally well written and taken in the context of 2064++SR and while we like the plot hooks and other game info, we feel that the writers could have been more creative. The general feel was (like Snow Fox has said) more things change the more they stay the same. What was portrayed as happening in the Asian countries in 2064++(apart from Japan) was an Awakened extrapolation from comtemporary histories of those countries.


Keep in mind that the writers walk a tightrope. On one hand, yes, you want to be creative. You want it to be a fictionalized version of the setting, because otherwise, you might as well just hit Wikipedia or go to your local library for info. On the other hand, far reaching fiction in location books has, in the past, received pretty harsh criticism from the players. Heck, you can look a few threads over at some fresh criticism about Germany in SR. nyahnyah.gif

But I'd definitely say that SoA isn't all just a regurgitation of current history. I mean, Tibet for instance (the section I wrote) definitely isn't the same as the current situation there.
FlakJacket
To be honest, when I read about what happened to Jerusalem I laughed. To my mind at least it just seems completely improbable. The Israeli's are going to give up their capital and just let the UN slide in with the Ecumenical Council? No matter how weird the magic, they'd laugh in anyone's face if they attempted it. Right before shooting them in it.
Demonseed Elite
To be honest, just about anything happening in Jerusalem is improbable. It's been a stalemated situation for decades, and unless you keep the stalemated situation, you are going to have to do something improbable.

But the improbable can happen, especially in Shadowrun. Hell, if you asked people about the current Gaza pullout years ago, they would have likely said that was improbable.
Snow_Fox
My only thought wass "THe UN did anything decisively? wow."

Maybe I missed it but it was hinted the Kabalahists practice blood magic. (Anyone seen Madonna lately? hmmm) Anyone else see a problem following that plot line?
Penta
Yes. It's called the Blood Libel.

Who wrote that section?
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Penta)
Yes. It's called the Blood Libel. Who wrote that section?

João Nunes and Anthony Bruno were the authors.

On the blood magic angle, it really depends on how they use it. The Great Ghost Dance where the Native American shamans gave their life energy to power the ritual was wholly voluntary but comes under the category of blood magic. ED split blood magic into two main groups, life magic and death magic. Life magic was used to seal deals or oaths, boost spells or adept powers by sacrificing a little pyhsical damage instead of mental drain. Death magic is where someone dies to power the spell - either voluntarily or involuntarily.

Part of Israeli's soldiers oath involves swearing that "Masada shall not fall again" which coupled with this and the general national psyche makes me think that they'd have enough magicians more than willing to give their lives in a GGD type ritual to defend their country. On the mention that the Kabbalists apparently use it a lot, I figure it's talking physical damage to offset drain and sealing things like blood oaths they're refering to.

On the Jerusalem matter, I still think the authors were smoking crack. And not in a good way. So weird magic and mana warps force the Israeli's out, yet when it subsides the UN somehow manages to beat the IDF back into the area? Rubbish. They're not just going to shrug and wander off, they'd have ringed the place with military units and cordoned it off for study.

That the UN somehow got in before the people camped right next to it is going to take a hell of a lot of hand waving and good arguments to convince me it's even half way credible. But then I'm not much of a fan of Peter's stuff on the UN in general and how the last few books have tried to shoehorn it into the world. :/
Paul
QUOTE (toturi)
OK, I've talked to some other guys(apart from my gaming group) in my FLGS about SOA and the general consensus was: If we wanted a history lesson, we would go buy a history book.

And just to contrats, we like the history lesson style. Although I tend to agree with Snow Fox here, it seemed sort of like rehashing the news.
hahnsoo
To be honest, I play Shadowrun BECAUSE it's an extrapolation of the real world (albeit, in some cases, the "real world" as it was during the 80s and 90s rather than our current 2000s). The fact that the much of the game setting is an extrapolation of "what could be" instead of "what if", even with the fantastic element of magic is the main draw for me. Sure, there are hard pills to swallow in the Sixth World (the NAN taking over half of North America, Amazonia, etc.), and those are the things that irk me a bit. But when I play Shadowrun, I want a game that could be plausibly grounded in a timeline parallel to our own. I like Castle Falkenstein for a similar reason... a parallel, but not so different, history.
Synner
QUOTE (FlakJacket @ Sep 3 2005, 08:38 PM)
But then I'm not much of a fan of Peter's stuff on the UN in general and how the last few books have tried to shoehorn it into the world. :/

Just for the record Flak, none of the UN material has been mine.

My credits in the relevant chapter were for Aegis (which I introduced in SoE) and co-writing the aristo cabal (again SoE-related but playing off Target:Smuggler Havens).
Snow_Fox
In our world we never thought of the UN. With it slowly re-emerging we kind of think of it as having been there all along but doing notrhing except talk and shuffle ppaers while the world goes by outside their windows. (Hey we're New Yorkers in RL, that's pretty much our view of the RL place nayway.)
Skarn Ka
QUOTE (Synner)
QUOTE (FlakJacket @ Sep 3 2005, 08:38 PM)
But then I'm not much of a fan of Peter's stuff on the UN in general and how the last few books have tried to shoehorn it into the world. :/

Just for the record Flak, none of the UN material has been mine.



The UN chapter in LA was written by me as well as all of Israel/Jerusalem/Palestine.

I fully agree the Jerusalem situation can sound unbelievable with only limited wordcount.
But if you read the section carefully you know how *essential* the corps are to Israel and how many strings they can pull in the UN.
It's deliberately left vague so anyone can make whatever he wants out of it.
But Israel in SoA is in dead need of corp support, so bad it has to accept drastic compromises.
You'll note they didn't have to evacuate Jerusalem's inhabitants (except from the Old City during the magical balagan), only hand over the control of its security.

Consider the state of isolation Israel is in at that time. What does it live on ? Which countries does it trade with ? The corps hold A LOT of power there.

And please, *don't* consider the UN at that time as its 2000's alter ego. They've just been revived *by the corps* and are basically a powerful, ruthless corp tool in '45, not a bunch of seat warmers.

mfb
you know, here's something that kinda bothers me. israel is enemy #1 for just about every islamic extremist out there. and in SR, a large portion of the middle east has been gathered into an extremist army that beat the everliving crap out of... europe!? crushing israel into non-existance would have taken at most one entire weekend. israel has lots of nice toys, sure, but you can't hold ground with toys. you need bodies, and the jihad had that in spades. what's israel going to do, nuke them? that's the great thing about the type of extremists that islam tends to produce: they don't care. any price is worth winning.

so, yeah. i know it's not the SoA writers' fault that israel still exists; both israel and the great jihad have been part of canon since, what, SR2? it just kinda annoys me that the guys in charge back then left us with this insanity.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Synner)
Just for the record Flak, none of the UN material has been mine.

Apologies. For some reason I was under the impression that you'd written the material. My mistake.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (mfb)
you know, here's something that kinda bothers me. israel is enemy #1 for just about every islamic extremist out there. and in SR, a large portion of the middle east has been gathered into an extremist army that beat the everliving crap out of... europe!? crushing israel into non-existance would have taken at most one entire weekend. israel has lots of nice toys, sure, but you can't hold ground with toys. you need bodies, and the jihad had that in spades. what's israel going to do, nuke them? that's the great thing about the type of extremists that islam tends to produce: they don't care. any price is worth winning.

so, yeah. i know it's not the SoA writers' fault that israel still exists; both israel and the great jihad have been part of canon since, what, SR2? it just kinda annoys me that the guys in charge back then left us with this insanity.

Well, there is nuking them and then there is reducing entire nations to radioactive ash.
If the former doesn't work then the latter something will. You can't fight if you aren't alive.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (mfb @ Sep 4 2005, 06:25 PM)
Oo, yeah. I know it's not the SoA writers' fault that Israel still exists; both Israel and the great Jihad have been part of canon since, what, SR2? It just kinda annoys me that the guys in charge back then left us with this insanity.

That always struck me as odd as well. That they'd go off invading Europe rather than finishing off Israel, who they hate a whole hell of a lot more, first before then moving on to Eastern Europe and Spain. Doesn't make a lot of sense leaving a highly dangerous., nuclear armed enemy at your back.
SL James
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (mfb @ Sep 4 2005, 01:25 PM)
you know, here's something that kinda bothers me.  israel is enemy #1 for just about every islamic extremist out there. and in SR, a large portion of the middle east has been gathered into an extremist army that beat the everliving crap out of... europe!? crushing israel into non-existance would have taken at most one entire weekend. israel has lots of nice toys, sure, but you can't hold ground with toys. you need bodies, and the jihad had that in spades. what's israel going to do, nuke them? that's the great thing about the type of extremists that islam tends to produce: they don't care. any price is worth winning.

so, yeah. i know it's not the SoA writers' fault that israel still exists; both israel and the great jihad have been part of canon since, what, SR2? it just kinda annoys me that the guys in charge back then left us with this insanity.

Well, there is nuking them and then there is reducing entire nations to radioactive ash.
If the former doesn't work then the latter something will. You can't fight if you aren't alive.

Life mfb said, they don't care. If they nuked everything from Tehran to Cairo, there are still millions of Muslims who were invading Europe who now have a huge reason to destroy Israel for nuking Saudi Arabia, etc.

Besides, how many nukes could Israel have before they either run out or got overrun? They'd be nuking their own land at some point.
Snow_Fox
I'm with the nuke option. Jordan/Syria/Egypt will not tolerate an army to march accross it on the way to Tel Aviv if they know the Israelis are gonig to nuke them. They do not have to use force, just say "Sorry oh Jihadists, no water to spare for your big ol' army"

also TODAY there are lots of dedicated wackos who would die to get a shot at Israel, the problem, for them, is that Israeli troops are well trained and equiped. A small force of well trained regulars can inflict crippling loses on massed attackers, no matter how dedicated those attackers are.
SL James
Like the Alamo.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (SL James)
Besides, how many nukes could Israel have before they either run out or got overrun? They'd be nuking their own land at some point.

Most estimates put them at having at least a hundred nuclear warheads and a possible maximum of up to two hundred, although some reports talk of nearer four hundred devices. They're mostly mounted on short or medium-range land based missiles along with aeroplane deployed missiles and bombs, although they're rumoured to have nuclear capable cruise missiles aboard some of the three submarines they bought off of Germany a while back.

A random thought, what are the prevailing winds like over Israel? Even if they restricted themselved to using nuclear weapons on foereign soil, would they still get a face full of contaminated weather?
Penta
The winds...depend. I might be wrong, but I recall the summer wind coming from the desert, winter from the Med.

I'm unsure though.
Skarn Ka
QUOTE (mfb)

so, yeah. i know it's not the SoA writers' fault that israel still exists; both israel and the great jihad have been part of canon since, what, SR2? it just kinda annoys me that the guys in charge back then left us with this insanity.


Well, a good deal of the chapter is about explaining why and how Israel did survive. I agree it's not really easy to explain but can be done anyway.
I suggest you read the chapter, and if you still need a plausible scenario I can post it here.

Skarn Ka
QUOTE (FlakJacket)

A random thought, what are the prevailing winds like over Israel? Even if they restricted themselved to using nuclear weapons on foereign soil, would they still get a face full of contaminated weather?


Well, basically Israel could nuke mainland Turkey and African Egypt, and Iraq or central Saudi Arabia, but *never* Syria, Lebanon, Jordan or Sinai, by fear of fucking up their territory.

If you want one first good explanation:

The Jihad's forces weren't that well organized (the Spanish and Balkan army weren't coordinated) $even though* they held for years in the Balkans.

But see it this way: the Jihad forces attack, but Israel threatens to detonate nukes and launch some more (they actually *do* that, if you read the chapter) on major population centers.

The nukes that hit hit command centers, supply depots and key coordination sites.

OTOH, European nations *never* used nukes in their war, for the very reason that neither France nor the UK was directly threatened.
JongWK
Something else to remember is the Suez Canal. Nuke it (or blow chunks of it) and anything coming from Egypt's side will have a *very* difficult time reaching Israel.

Boy, was this whole Jihad issue discussed during development...
FlakJacket
Israel retook the Sinai and the canal is under corporate control isn't it? So that's their south-eastern flank almost completely secure.
Skarn Ka
QUOTE (FlakJacket)
Israel retook the Sinai and the canal is under corporate control isn't it? So that's their south-eastern flank almost completely secure.


The canal is under UN control, but this means corporate in disguise. And that's post-Jihad, but you're absolutely right.
Snow_Fox
right, the corps are not going to let any islamic army walk through them and that actually spares the IDF from havcing to watch all fronts. After a century the Golan Heights are probably better dug in than the Maginot line in 1940. (only without an open flank)
so most of the military will be turned towards the east and Jordan.

Just a cultural aside:
There is really good wine coming out of the Golan height today (2005) I will be really pissed if the Isralei's lose that.

Tel Aviv and the stuff along the coast is fairly modern and a North American runner will have no trouble fitting in. Unless you rigger from St Louis insists spending the entire night looking for a rib joint (I kid you not.)
to the east away from the coast it gets more desert like what you see on the news. Masada is in the hard desert and between that and the dead sea you could be looking at serious back ground count. and let me tell you there was no way in heck I was climbing a certain mountain in the Sinai without certain precautions. Sure we don't know which it is for certain but the mountain in question glowed on the astrall. Free Spirit, Real deal. didn't matter to me.
"Guys take your boots off."
"Why?"
"Do it NOW!"
"Huh?"
"Take off thy shoes for this is sacred ground. Sound familiar?"
"OOOOH"
FlakJacket
Hey Skarn, any reason you used Mossad in the 'Above all, don’t get caught by Mossad' bit? I would have thought it would be Shabak, or if they're really in the shit then the MLMB, since it's an internal matter. I've been trying to keep a general track of the different intelligence types in the sixth world so was curious. I figure it's either one of two things- Mossad has the name recognition, or they've moved into the internal security game as well.
Penta
MLMB?
SL James
Memuneh al habitachon beMaarechet haBitachon
Penta
Um, what the hell is the difference between MLMB and Shabak?
FlakJacket
Not sure. They seem to be more involved with the corporate/military-industrial side of things though. Both physical and data security plus making sure the people themselves keep their traps shut and a fairly militant bunch to boot.
Snow_Fox
you know it occured to me for runs, you could get extremist zionists hiring gentile runners to disrupt the UN in David's City in the hopes of getting back in.

QUOTE (SL James @ Sep 4 2005, 02:57 PM)
Like the Alamo.

Uh, no. at the alamo the defenses were overwhealmed in the first rush. If you want a rl military example I would point to the British army in 1914. Mons, Le Cateau, Etruex, and 1st Ypres showed the smalled, better trained British forces bringing the much larger attack gernman forces to a halt.

At Mons ( 8/23/14) the germans reported they were halted by massed machine gun fire. The british had only 1 machine gun per 500 men but their rifle fire was so accurate and rapid that the germans could only imagine that rate of fire coming form machine gunes, not bolt action rifles.
JongWK
Another example is Rorke's Drift.
Skarn Ka

QUOTE

Just a cultural aside:
There is really good wine coming out of the Golan height today (2005) I will be really pissed if the Isralei's lose that.


Eheh smile.gif
Yep, not bad at all, some nice wineyards and wineries up there (my girlfriend works in the wine biz in Israel and we got to visit quite a few places and taste some really good stuff. Still a bit expensive compared to what we've got here, but definitely good.
And nevermind, they never gave the Golan back and probably won't (I mean in SR, of course) 'cause they simply have no good reason.

QUOTE
to the east away from the coast it gets more desert like what you see on the news.


Well, J'lem is still pretty woody on its western side (if you saw Kingdom of Heaven they completely fucked up the setting, with sand desert by the sea, al'right), but yeah, east and south of that you're in the Judea desert.

QUOTE

"Guys take your boots off."
"Why?"
"Do it  NOW!"
"Huh?"
"Take off thy shoes for this is sacred ground. Sound familiar?"
"OOOOH"


grinbig.gif
Skarn Ka
QUOTE (FlakJacket)
Hey Skarn, any reason you used Mossad in the 'Above all, don’t get caught by Mossad' bit? I would have thought it would be Shabak, or if they're really in the shit then the MLMB, since it's an internal matter. I've been trying to keep a general track of the different intelligence types in the sixth world so was curious. I figure it's either one of two things- Mossad has the name recognition, or they've moved into the internal security game as well.


That's a very good one, and you're right.
Shabak (or "Shin Beit", that is "S.B" as it's more commonly used in Israel) deals with internal security as well as paramilitary police (you see them rather than the regular police in the Pal Territories, in the zones that are under full Israeli control such as the road between J'lem and Jericho).

Thing is it doesn't have the name recognition and the "mythical reputation" as Mossad does.

Now this article is supposed to be for foreign runners, who come from foreign countries and are subject to Mossad retaliation there.

It's deliberaltely left vague, but technically J'lem and possibly parts of autonomous Palestine can now be considered foreign soil and be subject to Mossad ops.

In the end I chose this solution because it sounded cooler to me and can be explained one way or another. Also Shabak is far from having the same reputation of ruthlessness as Mossad. Plus Shabak operatives don't exactly have tyhe reputation tp be the smartest and slickest and are kinda mocked in Israel.

In the end, you could say that in the wake of all the mess that hapened there, intel agencies were consolidated into one (Israel is so small that the need of an internal security agency besides the "regular" police and some domestic military units is discussed even today). It would open some interesting possibilities.
Snow_Fox
mossad's rep may have slipped. A friend of mine was in Iraq, MP squad leader. Reservist group out of NYC attached to the 101st.

The infantry caught some real hard case, proud el queda type who cursed at them. They threated to hand him over to Mossad, a threat sure to loosen lips and bladders in the last war, nothing. Then he was told fine, you'll be given over to the MP's, these guys are from NYC. Dennis swears they had to get dry pants for the guy when the MP's from the NYPD grabbed the guy to cuff him.
Skarn Ka

You're right, I believe.

In, Israel quite a few people told me Mossad's no longer what it used to be.
They fucked up some of their last ops big-time, and these days their networks and contacts in the Arab world seem to be less numerous and effective, for various reasons.
Rory Blackhand
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050915/ap_on_...6g66U8w_zqbOrgF

"Among the biggest headlines, Iran's president said his country was willing to provide nuclear technology to other Muslim states."

What makes you think Israel will be the sole nuclear power?

"Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez scolded evangelist Pat Robertson for calling for his assassination and also criticized the U.S. government.

He suggested the United Nations headquarters be moved to Jerusalem."

Far fetched idea?

A better question though is what is it going to do there that couldn't be done 10 times easier from the Zurich Orbital or other such completely defensible site? And when have Islamic fascists respected anything other than their narrow view of the way things should be?

For the record I have not had a chance to read the material yet. But the biggest problem for me is who exactly is feeding the welfare state of Palestine all this time? Terror is not really a marketable commodity. Massive over crowding, lawless chaos, 80% unemployment, absolute corruption, a nearly total dependency on foreign aid. What's in it for the corps? I don't see a return here to justify the bottomless pit of welfare the Pals are soaking the world for.

I think it is a bad idea to let bleeding heart, garbage, fantasy ruin the setting. Once again, I repeat, I have not had a chance to read the book yet, but it seems to me, from the little bit posted, that the writers have an agenda and gave only passing thought to the actual SR game flavor. Leave the politically correct BS out please.

How about the beleaguered Israelis finish the security barrier thus preventing Pals from murdering their children. Inside the wall is a Fort Apache style society under siege. When the begging bowl stops getting filled from a suddenly self centered world the Pals are reduced to a Mad Max sort of post apocalyptic living. Free from the demasculinating yoke of dependency they revert back to being proud and fierce nomadic raiders constantly looting and pirating any kind of unwary travelers or goods arriving to the walled society. Either that or once frustrated at ever being able to dislodge the Jews from the Holy Land, they do the exact same thing they did at the turn of the century and invade or migrate to someone else's homeland looking to improve their miserable lot in life from other people's hard works. How about Frankistan, oops, I mean France? The French are being made into a dhimmi state, why not let that much more plausible scenario take it's natural course?

In my blunt way of stating the obvious, it doesn't make a pile of dog squat sense that the Pals have a chance to survive without massive aid. The way I see SR corp profits are all that matters and governments take a back seat to the corps. The Israelis are the most educated people on the planet, no doubt they will produce cutting edge tech and stay in the race. But what exactly do the Pals produce to justify surviving without help?

FlakJacket
QUOTE (Rory Blackhand)
"Among the biggest headlines, Iran's president said his country was willing to provide nuclear technology to other Muslim states."

What makes you think Israel will be the sole nuclear power?

Because the timeline split almost two decades ago and aside from a few small retcons, not counting the chapters inclusion of Al-Qaeda in the backhistory which I'm a little twitchy about, they've tried to ignore our current timeline as best they can. Plus the Corporate Court has tried to keep a limit on nuclear weapons and their proliferation, ignoring T:WL slipping India and Pakistan in, so they'd probably be happy if the Israeli's kept knocking out any of the neigbour's NBC programs.
SL James
I thought India and Pakistan were slipped into State of the Art, not Wastelands.
FlakJacket
Wastelands talked about the toxic zones/areas that were created by their live testing IIRC.
SL James
Oh, right. The other book mentioned them actually nuking each other.
Skarn Ka
QUOTE


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050915/ap_on_...6g66U8w_zqbOrgF

"Among the biggest headlines, Iran's president said his country was willing to provide nuclear technology to other Muslim states."

What makes you think Israel will be the sole nuclear power?



'Cause in my fictional timeline Iran never got to develop nukes. Read the Iran chapter for more details (I did not write the Iran part but did cooperate on it).

QUOTE

For the record I have not had a chance to read the material yet. But the biggest problem for me is who exactly is feeding the welfare state of Palestine all this time?



It doesn't only rely on welfare. In SR Palestine is an autonomous proto-state with very strong economic ties to Israel. It's also deeply backed by GSE, a powerful AA-megacorp originally from Arabia. Read the book to know more. So as to complete its plan of market unification in the Middle-East, Saeder-Krupp hasn't stayed completely away from it either.

QUOTE

I think it is a bad idea to let bleeding heart, garbage, fantasy ruin the setting.



Same here.


QUOTE

seems to me, from the little bit posted, that the writers have an agenda and gave only passing thought to the actual SR game flavor. Leave the politically correct BS out please.


An *agenda* ? Well... Read the chapter, ask other people and tell me which agenda.

QUOTE

How about the beleaguered Israelis finish the security barrier


Read it. They do.

QUOTE

How about Frankistan, oops, I mean France? The French are being made into a dhimmi state, why not let that much more plausible scenario take it's natural course?


Yep. Of course, Rory. Your arguments make lots of sense.
Thank you for the refreshing ideas you put forward. But, many people here just don't think your enlightened vision is plausible.


Omer Joel
QUOTE (Skarn Ka)
Shabak (or "Shin Beit", that is "S.B" as it's more commonly used in Israel) deals with internal security as well as paramilitary police (you see them rather than the regular police in the Pal Territories, in the zones that are under full Israeli control such as the road between J'lem and Jericho).

"Shin Beit" is an archaic term dating back two or more decades; it was the original name of what is now the SHABAK, but IRL everybody uses the term SHABAK and not Shin Beit. and yeah, the Mossad had several spectacular failures in the late 1990's and the early 2000's IRL, but it might just be bad luck (we shadowrunners know how tricky the 'biz is, don't we rotfl.gif), combined with far more leaks in the media rather than a genuine decline in quality.

Oh, and the Mossad's (or predecessor organization's) most spectacular failure was "Ha Parasha" (the Affair with a capital "A") or "Esek Ha Bish" (The unfortunate event) in the 1950's, when they tried (IIRC) to bomb USA targets in Egypt and put the blame on several Arab groups; when this was exposed it created one hell of a political mess in Israel.

So a few well-exposed failures don't reveal much about their quality; most of their successes aren't shown in the media, either.

They also don't replace regular police in the Territories; MAGAV (Mishmar Ha Gvul, Border Watch) does for the most part, augmented by regular IDF trops if the need arises. SHABAK is an intelligence operation mostly, with many informers, interrogators and investogators, but the "hands down" policing work is done by MAGAV. There are also the "Mista'arvim" (that is, undercover) units, who perform high-risk intelligence work in the Territories as well as the arrest of terror suspects; these are semi-special forces of the IDF.
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