Full Version: Max in a skill?
I know there is a max on attributes, but what is the max for a skill?
The skill maximum is 6 (7 with Aptitude), and the maximum augmented skill is 1.5 times the skill rating.
And this is the 800 lb. gorilla in my room that all my players are complaining about when we convert their characters from SR3 to SR4.
When is a skill counted as augmented?
Any clarifiactions on that?
Any clarifiactions on that?
The maximum (unaugmented) skill rating is 6. There's a Quality called Aptitude that will allow you to have a max of 7 in a single skill. Just like with attributes, there is also a maximum augmented rating, equal to base skill x 1.5 (which makes 9 the maximum possible rating, or 10 with the Aptitude Quality [SR4 pg 109]).
| QUOTE (Elve) |
| When is a skill counted as augmented? |
When implants/spells/whatever give bonus dice explicitly to that skill.
So mnemonic enhancers augments all knowledge and language skills, but smartlink doesn't, nor do specializations.
| QUOTE (Elve) |
| When is a skill counted as augmented? Any clarifiactions on that? |
As far as I can tell anything that raises it other than karma paid to the skill itself. It seems that the 1.5 limit stands for adept powers, cyber, you name it. Reguardless of what other limitations might be placed elsewhere (eg max aug for adepts is skill rating, availability, essence etc) the 1.5 limit appears to trump all. If it's in parenthesis then it's limited to 1.5 racial max.
--Edit--
As mentioned above certain things like smartlink, specialization etc give you a dice pool bonus on certain tests. This is not an addition to Skill Dice.
| QUOTE (Mightyflapjack) |
| And this is the 800 lb. gorilla in my room that all my players are complaining about when we convert their characters from SR3 to SR4. |
Well, remember that the 10 equivalent skill in SR3 is now a 7 equivalent skill in SR4. Most 6's would be converted to 4's or 5's, and the SR4 6 is more of an equivalent to an SR3 8.
| QUOTE (Elve) |
| When is a skill counted as augmented? Any clarifiactions on that? |
SR4 pg 109:
| CODE |
| The unmodified skill rating assigned at character creation or purchased during game play is considered to be the characters base skill rating. Some spells, abilities and implants may provide bonus dice to a skill, creating a modified skill rating, but this does not change the base skill rating. These extra dice are listed in parentheses after the base skill, as in Spellcasting 4 (+2). A modified skill cannot exceed the base skill rating x 1.5 (making 9 the maximum possible rating, or 10 with the Aptitude Quality). |
That's the only place I've seen reference to augmented skill caps so far.
Addendum: Okay, I found another reference to modified skill ratings (BTW, I love searchable PDFs!)
SR4 pg 63
| CODE |
| The maximum natural rating available for a skill is 6, or 7 with the Aptitude quality (p. 77). Adept powers, implants or magic may provide bonus dice to a skill, creating a modified skill rating, but this does not change the base skill rating. The maximum modified rating allowed is 1.5 times the natural rating (making 9 the maximum achievable, or 10 with the Aptitude quality). |
Oddly, there's no mention there about specializations. I'm not sure if they should count or not. The description of how specializations work certainly sound like they would (i.e., "A specialization grants the character 2 extra dice on tests using that skill when the particular specialty applies.")
Edit: Nevermind, it looks like specializations raise your base skill (at least according to pg 63). So, maybe you could get up to a skill pool of 13? Nine from skill 7 + specialization 2 then 4 more augmented dice?
Would this be legal?
4 automatics
+2 AK97
+1 recorded reflexes
+2 smart linked
So is that max really only 4?
4 automatics
+2 AK97
+1 recorded reflexes
+2 smart linked
So is that max really only 4?
Err, I mean would I cap out at 6 since I only have 4 firearms?
| QUOTE (Mal-2) |
Oddly, there's no mention there about specializations. I'm not sure if they should count or not. The description of how specializations work certainly sound like they would (i.e., "A specialization grants the character 2 extra dice on tests using that skill when the particular specialty applies.") |
The key language seems to be the difference between
"Adding dice to a skill test"
or
"Providing bonus dice to a skill"
Adding dice to a skill test is augmenting the dice pool not the skill. Providing bonus dice to the skill is augmenting the skill and would cause the skill to be read as Pistols 6 (7) for instance for a +1 die to the pistols skill.
Arg, now I'm completely confused.
I went to the Adept Powers section to look at the Improved Ability power. It says "This power gives you additional dice for use with a specific Active skill." followed by "You cannot have more additional dice than your base skill rating."
How is this supposed to tie in with maximum augmented skill ratings?
I went to the Adept Powers section to look at the Improved Ability power. It says "This power gives you additional dice for use with a specific Active skill." followed by "You cannot have more additional dice than your base skill rating."
How is this supposed to tie in with maximum augmented skill ratings?
| QUOTE (Mal-2) |
| I went to the Adept Powers section to look at the Improved Ability power. It says "This power gives you additional dice for use with a specific Active skill." followed by "You cannot have more additional dice than your base skill rating." How is this supposed to tie in with maximum augmented skill ratings? |
In another thread on adept twinks it was mentioned that this should probably go the way of 'adding dice to the skill'. It keeps adepts a little more grounded compared to chromers and is the way I'm playing it in my current game. The more additional dice than skill rating is a seperate limitation.
For instance. If you've got a 3 skill, you can Imp Ability for 3 more dice as that meets the limit for adepts. 6 total dice in the skill is still below the max augmented threshold. Now, if you've got a 6 in the skill you can still only Imp. Ability for 3 due to the 1.5 limitation.
This sure changes things.
So the base max skill limit of 6 is there, regardless of the attribute that the skill is linked to. (eg even with a 7 or 8 Strength the character can still only max out at 6 in natural skill).
The Augmented limit seems to really put a damper on character growth. With 9 being the absolute once a character reaches this (via implant, magic or adept power) they can progress no further.
Sounds like they need to come up with an "Epic Level" runners supplement.
So the base max skill limit of 6 is there, regardless of the attribute that the skill is linked to. (eg even with a 7 or 8 Strength the character can still only max out at 6 in natural skill).
The Augmented limit seems to really put a damper on character growth. With 9 being the absolute once a character reaches this (via implant, magic or adept power) they can progress no further.
Sounds like they need to come up with an "Epic Level" runners supplement.
Do specializations count towards the limit?
Smart link is just a bonus similiar to aiming for awhile right? So it doesn't apply?
Smart link is just a bonus similiar to aiming for awhile right? So it doesn't apply?
| QUOTE (Lord Ben) |
| Would this be legal? 4 automatics +2 AK97 +1 recorded reflexes +2 smart linked So is that max really only 4? |
Well I'm not sure what the +2 AK97's supposed to be. +2 as a specialty? If that's what you mean then you should know that you can't take a specialty more than once.
So let's say 4 Automatics, Specialty: AK97, +1 Recorded Reflexed, +2 Smart Linked, +2 Aiming.
That's a total of 10 (4+1+2+2) which it totally fine. Your skill isn't above 9. It's the other modifiers that take it up.
As for specialties I wouldn't count that towards skill limit. I'd allow a skill of 9 and a specialty no problem.
Just a note that your specialization would be Assault Rifles, not AK-97. Thus:
Automatics 4 (Assault Rifles +2)
You'd roll 6 + Agility + 1 for Reflex Recorder + 2 for Smartlink + any take aim for your attack rolls with an Assault Rifle.
Automatics 4 (Assault Rifles +2)
You'd roll 6 + Agility + 1 for Reflex Recorder + 2 for Smartlink + any take aim for your attack rolls with an Assault Rifle.
What applies to the augmented limits then? Is it only for adepts? Or does some cyberware apply?
Sure. Muscle replacement and the like. Anything that adds specificly to an attribute or skill for all purpouses of that rating, and only for that rating. For skills I donīt know of any examples for when it applies, as skillsofts are caped far lower.
And Lord Ben; I noticed that you confused the augumented cap, it doesnīt set the limit at your current skill * 1.5, but your maximum skill * 1.5. So in your example, you would have a skill of 4 period. All the modifiers you stated are situational and apply to the dice pool not the skill (except specialization but thats a special case).
And Lord Ben; I noticed that you confused the augumented cap, it doesnīt set the limit at your current skill * 1.5, but your maximum skill * 1.5. So in your example, you would have a skill of 4 period. All the modifiers you stated are situational and apply to the dice pool not the skill (except specialization but thats a special case).
| QUOTE (mintcar) |
| And Lord Ben; I noticed that you confused the augumented cap, it doesnīt set the limit at your current skill * 1.5, but your maximum skill * 1.5. |
I quoted two places from the book where it says the max is your base skill * 1.5. Can you provide a quote for your interpretation?
Just spent some time checking it myself. And you are right it does say that. However, when it comes to skills the only significant example of were it applies is Improved Ability. And that discription says you can increase the skill up to twice your natural skill. With my interpretation both of these could be true. With yours one of them has to be false. I know what Iīm gonna go with, but I sadly canīt prove anyone wrong.
<<edit>> I would like to say that thereīs another problem here, and that is that the discription of Improved Ability states that itīs a bonus to the test, not explicitly the skill. If thatīs the way they want it, IA rocks and I canīt imagine what the base skill (or max skill?) * 1.5 even limits in the first place. I certainly havenīt seen any example of were it clearly applies as of yet.
So I simply think that this whole thing is a mess and I choose the way I wanna play it. Heck, when I first spoke up I thought that was how it was really, but now I just think there IS no right interpretation of this mess.
<<edit>> I would like to say that thereīs another problem here, and that is that the discription of Improved Ability states that itīs a bonus to the test, not explicitly the skill. If thatīs the way they want it, IA rocks and I canīt imagine what the base skill (or max skill?) * 1.5 even limits in the first place. I certainly havenīt seen any example of were it clearly applies as of yet.
So I simply think that this whole thing is a mess and I choose the way I wanna play it. Heck, when I first spoke up I thought that was how it was really, but now I just think there IS no right interpretation of this mess.
Well, my DM is saying that all cyberware that provides a bonus counts as a bonus for the maximum. Essentially limiting anyone to 18 dice...
| QUOTE (mintcar) |
| So I simply think that this whole thing is a mess and I choose the way I wanna play it. Heck, when I first spoke up I thought that was how it was really, but now I just think there IS no right interpretation of this mess. |
I agree. There are two places in the book that they talk about skill caps in general discussion of how skills work. No where else do they seem to acknowledge those couple of sentences. None of the magic, cyber, or skill bonus descriptions seem to have any idea that there is an augmented skill cap.
So, until there's some clarification from on high, we should probably either ignore augmented skill caps across the board, or apply them equally to any cyber or magic that adds to skills (or rolls with particular skills).
[
| QUOTE |
| I went to the Adept Powers section to look at the Improved Ability power. It says "This power gives you additional dice for use with a specific Active skill." followed by "You cannot have more additional dice than your base skill rating." |
It makes no sence that if your skill is 6 you can have a 6 in this adept power but never be able to use more than a level 3. Can anyone find the logic in that?
As far as skill compression goes from SR3 to SR4, I'd imagine the conversion looks something like this:
..SR3..........SR4
1..........(Don't bother)
2-3...............2
4-5...............3
6..................4
7-8...............5
9..................6
10-11...........7
..SR3..........SR4
1..........(Don't bother)
2-3...............2
4-5...............3
6..................4
7-8...............5
9..................6
10-11...........7
alright... this seems to put a serious damper on advancement and balance!
Compared to the various old SR rules where certain powerful individuals had very high skill ratings (Teachdaire with Rifles 11, Walther MA 13; Rhonabwy with Sorcery 25...metaplanar entities in Harlequin's back with 40 in their skills).
So according to the SR4 rules, we'd be looking at this:
Fastjack, Dodger and Michael Sutherland; Hacking 7
Teachdaire and Blackwing; Firearms 7
Perianwyr; Spellcasting 7.
This also means that a starting character will only have to spend a measly 14 Karma to become as good in a specific skill as the legends in the shadowrun universe... does this sound wrong to anyone else? (Not to mention that the Adept Hacker from another thread could practically max out his/her hacking dice from the start and give any existing decker a run for his money)
Not to mention that attributes just became insanely important.
I am seriously questioning this decision, and I'll throw the ball in the air and ask some of the people who've played and/or playtested and/or wrote this - how did you find this to work, practically? What ramifications were considered in making this decision?
Cuz I'm just puzzled...
Compared to the various old SR rules where certain powerful individuals had very high skill ratings (Teachdaire with Rifles 11, Walther MA 13; Rhonabwy with Sorcery 25...metaplanar entities in Harlequin's back with 40 in their skills).
So according to the SR4 rules, we'd be looking at this:
Fastjack, Dodger and Michael Sutherland; Hacking 7
Teachdaire and Blackwing; Firearms 7
Perianwyr; Spellcasting 7.
This also means that a starting character will only have to spend a measly 14 Karma to become as good in a specific skill as the legends in the shadowrun universe... does this sound wrong to anyone else? (Not to mention that the Adept Hacker from another thread could practically max out his/her hacking dice from the start and give any existing decker a run for his money)
Not to mention that attributes just became insanely important.
I am seriously questioning this decision, and I'll throw the ball in the air and ask some of the people who've played and/or playtested and/or wrote this - how did you find this to work, practically? What ramifications were considered in making this decision?
Cuz I'm just puzzled...
| QUOTE (Orient) |
| As far as skill compression goes from SR3 to SR4, I'd imagine the conversion looks something like this: |
Considering defined skill-ranges, I came up with:
SR4 -> SR3
1 -> 1
2 -> 2
3 -> 3 & 4
4 -> 5 & 6
5 -> 7
6 -> 8
(7 -> 9+)
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| Considering defined skill-ranges, I came up with: |
*shrug*
Either way works. As far as complaints regarding the overimportance of Attributes, I tend to agree. Granted, I'll withhold final judgement until I've managed a bit more playtesting, but still..
Hmmm - I just saw that dragons have skills listed at 8 (10 for great dragons)... I guess this means that there isn't a skill cap of 6(7) - it's just metahumans that are too stupid to learn higher than that...
Those who haven't played Survival of the Fittest should probly not read this:
Those who haven't played Survival of the Fittest should probly not read this:
[ Spoiler ]
Remember, 6 (or 7) is the maximum for humans. Spirits don't have that maximum, and have skills equal to their force. So while I find it to be a big problem that humans are so very capped, the doom sayers talking about how limited dragons and metaplanar entities are.... well, those people are wrong.
Great Dragons are written in as having the Sorcery Skill Group out to 10+ in the basic book. So no, PCs are never going to be able to aspire to be the equals of the great named characters - those dudes have the special "not capped by anything" rule and PCs don't. No amount of adventures will ever get you enough skills in any endeavor to seriously threaten any of the Great Dragons. Your caps simply aren't high enough to compete with their minimums.
-Frank
Great Dragons are written in as having the Sorcery Skill Group out to 10+ in the basic book. So no, PCs are never going to be able to aspire to be the equals of the great named characters - those dudes have the special "not capped by anything" rule and PCs don't. No amount of adventures will ever get you enough skills in any endeavor to seriously threaten any of the Great Dragons. Your caps simply aren't high enough to compete with their minimums.
-Frank
Well...great dragons aside (and aren't spirits capped to force 6, I thought I read something like that in the magic section...) newly created runners will still be able to give the more metahuman 'legends' a run for their money.
With the existing caps, it seems to me there will be alot of runners with important attributes maxed out, skills capped out, the best gear (since it's cheap and fairly available) and...that will be that.
With the existing caps, it seems to me there will be alot of runners with important attributes maxed out, skills capped out, the best gear (since it's cheap and fairly available) and...that will be that.
No more so than before, really. The starting power level has droped, and so has the top (tremendously). But nothing will stop me as a GM from making special NPC super-qualities for the legends.
| QUOTE (mintcar) |
| No more so than before, really. The starting power level has droped, and so has the top (tremendously). But nothing will stop me as a GM from making special NPC super-qualities for the legends. |
You may not -expect- anything to stop you, but nobody expects the Gaming Police Inquisition.
But then again, why trowing legends at players?
In some cases it's not a matter of throwing legends at the players. It's a matter of the players trying to take down someone great because they "know" he can only possibly have X dice.
Because the problem is really with a few named figures in the gaming world that you are not very likely to encounter, Iīm much more comfortable with handling it with qualities than with infinite skill values. You can tailor in a bunch of powerful modifiers for unique tricks the characters have learned in their long, adventurous careers.
(The gaming police have very limited resources in Sweden. They hardly ever make any real strikes, so Iīm not really worried. That doesnīt prevent people from threatening to report you though)
(The gaming police have very limited resources in Sweden. They hardly ever make any real strikes, so Iīm not really worried. That doesnīt prevent people from threatening to report you though)
Well, true... I agree with you that 'throwing legends' at the runners is and should be rare.
But the simple fact there won't be anyone better than your character at shooting a rifle, after you've spent those karma in the right place, is a gaming faux pax.
Resorting to special rules for the best of the best should be rare, as it has in SR previously (Ultimate chars, Teachdaire...).
My biggest gripe is that the absolute ceiling that they've put into SR4 not only severealy flattens things out at the high-powered end - it puts the psychological damper on players that their characters won't be able to advance much in their field of expertise, and it makes the gap between 'starting character' and 'legendary experienced runner' waaaay too short.
In my SR1, 2 and 3 games over the years, the 'awe-inspiring' skill level has steadily increased. Back in the early days it was 7 or 8 that marked a seasoned expert. Then it went up to 9 and 10, and now in SR3, the 'best of the best' that the runners can compare themselves to has skill rating upwards of 12 and 13 - maybe even 15.
In SR4, the runners will start with a skill at 5 or 6, and fairly quickly advance to the top 6 and 7, and that's it. Their enemies can never advance past that, and neither can they.
And of course, house-ruling this cap opens up a whole new can of SURGEd earthworms, because what happens to the success system when someone is rolling 40 dice on a test? (not to mention the physical aspect of rolling and counting 40 dice...).
But the simple fact there won't be anyone better than your character at shooting a rifle, after you've spent those karma in the right place, is a gaming faux pax.
Resorting to special rules for the best of the best should be rare, as it has in SR previously (Ultimate chars, Teachdaire...).
My biggest gripe is that the absolute ceiling that they've put into SR4 not only severealy flattens things out at the high-powered end - it puts the psychological damper on players that their characters won't be able to advance much in their field of expertise, and it makes the gap between 'starting character' and 'legendary experienced runner' waaaay too short.
In my SR1, 2 and 3 games over the years, the 'awe-inspiring' skill level has steadily increased. Back in the early days it was 7 or 8 that marked a seasoned expert. Then it went up to 9 and 10, and now in SR3, the 'best of the best' that the runners can compare themselves to has skill rating upwards of 12 and 13 - maybe even 15.
In SR4, the runners will start with a skill at 5 or 6, and fairly quickly advance to the top 6 and 7, and that's it. Their enemies can never advance past that, and neither can they.
And of course, house-ruling this cap opens up a whole new can of SURGEd earthworms, because what happens to the success system when someone is rolling 40 dice on a test? (not to mention the physical aspect of rolling and counting 40 dice...).
Well, that is one of the points I like about the Skill+Attribute with a ceiling, it eliminates skill "inflation".
| QUOTE |
| In my SR1, 2 and 3 games over the years, the 'awe-inspiring' skill level has steadily increased. Back in the early days it was 7 or 8 that marked a seasoned expert. Then it went up to 9 and 10, and now in SR3, the 'best of the best' that the runners can compare themselves to has skill rating upwards of 12 and 13 - maybe even 15. |
And the difference I have always seen between a "average" shadowrunner and a "legendary" shadowrunner is not just skill, because anyone can shoot a gun or drive a car but gear and contacts. You may be as good as Johny "One-Shot" McGue" with a rifle, but his rifle is tricked out to the extreme with toys that no-one has access to. How? In the years that he has been running, he has accrued favors and made friends in all the right spots, so Ares "lost" one of their new proto-type "Uber-Rifle X9999" with new plutonium rounds.
That has always been how I have seen and potrayed "legendary" individuals. Not only are they the best of the best because of all their ability (and not just their Rifle 7) but because of all the favors and feats they have done.
personaly, i wouldnt worry about it right now... unless you're just converting 3r ed characters, or you play every other night.
i'd suggest the following house rule.
Stats 1-6 = rating x3 (2=6k 3=9k 4=12k 5=15k 6=18K)
stat 7-12 = rating x 4.5 (x3x1.5), requires exceptional atribute quality (costs 40 karma, or 20 bp) (7=31.5 8=36k 9=41, ect
under 3d ed, didnt the cost of increasing a stat past the racial maximum just double the cost ?
i'd suggest the following house rule.
Stats 1-6 = rating x3 (2=6k 3=9k 4=12k 5=15k 6=18K)
stat 7-12 = rating x 4.5 (x3x1.5), requires exceptional atribute quality (costs 40 karma, or 20 bp) (7=31.5 8=36k 9=41, ect
under 3d ed, didnt the cost of increasing a stat past the racial maximum just double the cost ?
| QUOTE (Autarkis) | ||
Well, that is one of the points I like about the Skill+Attribute with a ceiling, it eliminates skill "inflation".
And the difference I have always seen between a "average" shadowrunner and a "legendary" shadowrunner is not just skill, because anyone can shoot a gun or drive a car but gear and contacts. You may be as good as Johny "One-Shot" McGue" with a rifle, but his rifle is tricked out to the extreme with toys that no-one has access to. How? In the years that he has been running, he has accrued favors and made friends in all the right spots, so Ares "lost" one of their new proto-type "Uber-Rifle X9999" with new plutonium rounds. That has always been how I have seen and potrayed "legendary" individuals. Not only are they the best of the best because of all their ability (and not just their Rifle 7) but because of all the favors and feats they have done. |
Yes, that is a valid difference - reputation and gear. The best have the best. (As for being the best in one skill - take Blackwing. He is stated as being THE best with firearms in a recent adventure pack. In SR4, there is no such thing, within the rules. No one can ever be 'the best' at anything - just one among many).
But looking at the current rules from an in-game perspective, is it feasible that someone will go from nothing to the absolute maximum of their potential in a few years of running? And is it feasible for the elf that did this back in 2050 to still have the exact same skill in 2070?
The reason skill levels have increased in my campaign is because we've been running in the same game world from 2050 through 2063 - no one character (except world NPCs like Dodger etc) have survived through all those years, but we do have current PCs and NPCs with 7 years of development. Elves live hundreds of years, but can never surpass 7 in a skill (and 6 in the rest).
Transferring those characters - even if it's only just for background flavor - to SR4 rules, will create the odd situation that those characters will stop developing, unless you go beyond the written rules.
Like someone said in another thread, it's like putting a cap on Initiation. 'Sorry, grade 6 is the max - after that you know all you can ever learn)'.
The fact remains that many people play so they can advance their characters and see the numbers develop as the history and character does, but now after you max-out the five-six skills and attributes that are 'your' speciality, all that's left is diversifying and expanding into other territories.
That is only part of the gaming experience, I know, but it's an important part.
Once you're so good at shooting at a certain level things like wind, etc become far more than skill can overcome. I mean, you can shoot an apple thrown into the air at close range, but at a certain level whether your gun has shot 10000 times or 10001 times is more important than an extra dice of skill. Or wheter any butterflies flapped their wings in colorado last week has more effect.
There HAS to be a number at which improving your skill doesn't matter because chaos is more important. This game system says 7 dice is that number (+ specialties +combat modifiers, etc)
There HAS to be a number at which improving your skill doesn't matter because chaos is more important. This game system says 7 dice is that number (+ specialties +combat modifiers, etc)
The skill caps are stupid and I'm going to ignore them.
The skill caps, along with the restrictions on skills at chargen (one at 6, the rest at four, two at 5, the rest at four), are misguided attempts to control munchkinism. I haven't met a munchkin I couldn't eat alive and wringling since I graduated high school. And the root cause of munchkinism is bad gamemastering, anyway.
Gamemasters pour karma and nuyen on their players like a baptism, then wonder why they're overpowered. Cut down on both, and you cut down on player power.
Besides that, I'm not afraid of the player who spends all his karma building Pistols 14. It doesn't help against a land mine. Or a vehicle or spirit immune to pistol fire. It doesn't save you when the chopper you're riding in takes a hit and needs wrestled to a safe landing. If a player twinks out one aspect of his character, present the character with problems that aspect cannot solve.
Gamemastering defeats munchkinism. Not silly rules restrictions that make starting characters among the best in the world.
The skill caps, along with the restrictions on skills at chargen (one at 6, the rest at four, two at 5, the rest at four), are misguided attempts to control munchkinism. I haven't met a munchkin I couldn't eat alive and wringling since I graduated high school. And the root cause of munchkinism is bad gamemastering, anyway.
Gamemasters pour karma and nuyen on their players like a baptism, then wonder why they're overpowered. Cut down on both, and you cut down on player power.
Besides that, I'm not afraid of the player who spends all his karma building Pistols 14. It doesn't help against a land mine. Or a vehicle or spirit immune to pistol fire. It doesn't save you when the chopper you're riding in takes a hit and needs wrestled to a safe landing. If a player twinks out one aspect of his character, present the character with problems that aspect cannot solve.
Gamemastering defeats munchkinism. Not silly rules restrictions that make starting characters among the best in the world.
I'm not against a skill cap - but I am against the hard skill cap of SR4 where, as ZenShooter pointed out, starting characters can be among the very best in the world.
With 7 steps from'absolute nobody' to 'the best ever' the scale is simply too small. We're talking 62 karma to go from barely knowing 1+1 to figuring out the thermal leakage of a black hole - in your head...
With SR3 there was a more sensible soft cap if you used the learning rules from SRC - desired skill rating x 2 as TN to raise skill. Once you reached 7-8 it became very difficult to increase the skill - taking a long time, even with an instructor and using the skill daily.
Above 15 would near impossible, and no SR diceroll in any of my games has ever been above 37 - equalling a skill raised to 18.
And the TN in SR3 would be where skill stops mattering much.
With 7 steps from'absolute nobody' to 'the best ever' the scale is simply too small. We're talking 62 karma to go from barely knowing 1+1 to figuring out the thermal leakage of a black hole - in your head...
With SR3 there was a more sensible soft cap if you used the learning rules from SRC - desired skill rating x 2 as TN to raise skill. Once you reached 7-8 it became very difficult to increase the skill - taking a long time, even with an instructor and using the skill daily.
Above 15 would near impossible, and no SR diceroll in any of my games has ever been above 37 - equalling a skill raised to 18.
And the TN in SR3 would be where skill stops mattering much.
I plan on using skill and attribute caps the same way they rule new qualities...
If I decide as a GM that a character (or NPC) has earned the right to develop a skill then they can do it, at double the karma cost.
Fastjack has a higher hacking skill then 7.
Damien Knight has a higher negotiations skill then 7.
etc...
Limits on 'total' dice pool I think are un-necessary, but that falls into the area of house rule as well.
If I decide as a GM that a character (or NPC) has earned the right to develop a skill then they can do it, at double the karma cost.
Fastjack has a higher hacking skill then 7.
Damien Knight has a higher negotiations skill then 7.
etc...
Limits on 'total' dice pool I think are un-necessary, but that falls into the area of house rule as well.
Now being the best at something is not just limited to your Ability and Skill. Don't forget Edge. If your trying to make that one in a million shot it is nice to be able to throw more dice in and be able to reroll your 6's. So you have to max out you ability and skill, max out your edge (don't forget to get the lucky quality), and max out any enchancements (cyber, bioware, or magical) and specialities. That's alot of points to be a one trick pony.
Maybe I'm weird or something... but skill-caps don't even begin to affect anything I do... I've never had enough karma to raise my skills to 7 in SR3, so I really don't think I'm gonna have a problem with skill caps in SR4. Maybe my GM is simply cheap with Karma... wait, I always suspected him of beeing cheap with it... and cheap with cash rewards too but hey, back in SR3, I was running a deficit using drones on runs and repairing them... pretty sweet.
Anyway, Sorry bout this lil rant, but I don't think skikll caps are gonna be a problem.
Anyway, Sorry bout this lil rant, but I don't think skikll caps are gonna be a problem.
the thing about skill caps is that there is no 100% sure way of being the single best being in the world doing your thing.
and to me that sounds kinda fair. you may be the best at what you do around your parts. but some day some stranger may roll into town that can match you point for point. and at that point, going head to head comes down to luck.
allso, a old hat at any "game" will know how to stack the cards his way. as in know when to go head to head, when to shoot form the shadows, and when to get someone else to take the opponent on and then finish off whoever is left standing.
this is grit from my pov. this is film noir at its best. where the hero isnt a rambo that can just walk into harms way and be 100% sure to survive because he is protecting the american way of life. this is where the guy in the trenchcoat gets roughed up by the bigger guy, someone he have to sucker punch to the be able to get away. where you deal with the sharks so that they let you go because you set them up with a bigger catch. and then gets out of town as you cant say for sure if they will turn around and remove you as you know to much.
basicly the hard caps nails this down. there is no way you can go beyond the sweet zone. basicly there is no way for the game to degenerate into a cold war between cheesy power house characters and even more cheesy npcs trown at the characters just to see the heaps of dice roll.
and to me that sounds kinda fair. you may be the best at what you do around your parts. but some day some stranger may roll into town that can match you point for point. and at that point, going head to head comes down to luck.
allso, a old hat at any "game" will know how to stack the cards his way. as in know when to go head to head, when to shoot form the shadows, and when to get someone else to take the opponent on and then finish off whoever is left standing.
this is grit from my pov. this is film noir at its best. where the hero isnt a rambo that can just walk into harms way and be 100% sure to survive because he is protecting the american way of life. this is where the guy in the trenchcoat gets roughed up by the bigger guy, someone he have to sucker punch to the be able to get away. where you deal with the sharks so that they let you go because you set them up with a bigger catch. and then gets out of town as you cant say for sure if they will turn around and remove you as you know to much.
basicly the hard caps nails this down. there is no way you can go beyond the sweet zone. basicly there is no way for the game to degenerate into a cold war between cheesy power house characters and even more cheesy npcs trown at the characters just to see the heaps of dice roll.
| QUOTE (Franko) |
| Maybe I'm weird or something... but skill-caps don't even begin to affect anything I do... I've never had enough karma to raise my skills to 7 in SR3, so I really don't think I'm gonna have a problem with skill caps in SR4. |
You've never had ten karma on a character with a skill of six? That really is all it takes.
Fourteen karma if you don't have an attribute of seven. Actually a full seventeen (!!) if you're at a mere 3.
That in no way meaningfully alters your point, but I thought I'd mention.
~J
That in no way meaningfully alters your point, but I thought I'd mention.
~J
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.