Is it just me, or is it strange that your stun boxes are linked to willpower instead of Body?
In some senses, I can see this is an improvement (magic types)...but logically, I just cannot see a low willpower troll being able to take less of a beating than the average human in stun damage.
I was talking about SR4 to a friend, and I mentioned this aspect. It was enough to make him never want to look at the new edition, and he's stubborn about that sort of thing.
Now, I guess a higher body would make up for it a little, as you would take fewer hits on average. However, I'm already finding it a little disconcerting about the number of posts describing the new way to take down a troll fast... stun dmg.
Anyway, if there is something I'm just not getting, let me know.
-Ravennus
Full Version: Stun Dmg linked to Willpower?
The Troll can't endure more pain, it's just harder to inflict pain upon him.
but if they have a lowered will, they actually can't endure as much pain.
So, what, they're so used to not getting hurt that acutally getting through makes em curl up in a ball?
So, what, they're so used to not getting hurt that acutally getting through makes em curl up in a ball?
You still resist damage (Stun or Physical) using Body. You just have less boxes with a lower willpower, that's all (and only one or two at the most). A troll is still tough, stun damage or not. But they are still affected the same as other metahumans by tasers and stunbolts.
as I still don't have SR4 (sad for me) I'm really just throwing out thoughts as they come. So feel free to ignore me until next week . But thanks Hahnsoo. You're book-fu is strong
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) |
| You still resist damage (Stun or Physical) using Body. You just have less boxes with a lower willpower, that's all (and only one or two at the most). A troll is still tough, stun damage or not. But they are still affected the same as other metahumans by tasers and stunbolts. |
Why would they be affected the same by a taser? I mean 2-3 times the mass of a human hit by a charge designed to incapacitate a human.. hehe taser a grizzly bear or elephant I will doubt that they will go down like a human would.
Also the troll should not wear heavy armour, because they have fewer stun boxes than physical.. *I mean huh* But its true, those 8 points of ballastic armour stopped the bullet, no physical damage just stun. Oh wait you have fewer boxes of stun than physical, sorry mr troll you go down just as fast as the average human( same # of stun damage boxes taken). Yes, you are correct inpart because a troll can mitigate more damage than a human. But they still have the same threshold for unconcienseness, just not death. Which is kinda wonkey.
It makes sense when it comes to tasers, spells, toxins and pretty much any other source of stun damage. But a punch in the face? That is a little bit hard to swallow. An adept with killing hands might just choose not to use it against trolls.
All in all, it's a small gripe, and i'm otherwise digging the new damage system.
All in all, it's a small gripe, and i'm otherwise digging the new damage system.
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Sep 7 2005, 01:49 AM) |
| but if they have a lowered will, they actually can't endure as much pain. So, what, they're so used to not getting hurt that acutally getting through makes em curl up in a ball? |
Actually Will 5 has the same number of stun boxes as Will 6, it is 8+(Will/2) rounded up. Without an Exceptional Attribute used by the Orc/Elf/Human, the Troll will have the same tolerance to stubbing his toe.
thanks, that's one of the things I'm missing by not having the book (yet 
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| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| House rule |
you need to edit some of those typo's man. Overall you gave me several good ideas. Thanks!
And the specialization thing, yeah my group already houseruled it to the same thing, 2bp per specialization die, up to 2 dice. I mean, when they created sr4, they made everything cost so much. Now that all the attributes and skills are so low. But then, if you specialize your still back to 6 or more skill dice, for only 2 BP.. WTF?
And LOL yup if i was a adept i would not use physical killing hands on a troll, it would be stupid.
I might concider making stun boxes (body+will)/4. Easy change that wont effect the game ballance much, I think.
If I was a troll I'd just get Adrenal glands to make myself immune to stun damage. Let the stupid adept unleash a few stun punches, by the time he realizes you're immune to getting knocked out while the juice is flowing he'll likely be paste.
How do Adrenal glands make you immune to stun damage?
It doesn't - you just don't blackout anymore, as it works like a pain editor, too.
For 1d6 to 3d6 rounds at least, then you not only have the old penalties but also new ones equal to one stun damage per round it was active.
Well first off. I would suggest reading the rules first before pronouncing that trolls are wimps. 
1. Trolls and humans have the same starting and maximum Willpower. They both start with 1 Willpower and have a maximum of 6.
2. If the Damage value of an attack does not exceed the Armor piercing modified Armor rating then the attack does Stun damage instead of Lethal. So a 5L would become 5S.
3. You still resist the Damage Value of an attack with Body + Armor. Trolls have a natural Armor rating of 1 which stacks with any other Armor that they have.
4. A Troll's Body rating starts out at 5 and has a maximum of rating of 10! Compared to the Humans starting Body of 1 and maximum of 6.
5. The maximum enhanced Body of a Troll is 15. A Human has a maximum enhanced Body of 9.
So, Trolls are not going to curl up into a ball in pain from a pimp slap.
1. Trolls and humans have the same starting and maximum Willpower. They both start with 1 Willpower and have a maximum of 6.
2. If the Damage value of an attack does not exceed the Armor piercing modified Armor rating then the attack does Stun damage instead of Lethal. So a 5L would become 5S.
3. You still resist the Damage Value of an attack with Body + Armor. Trolls have a natural Armor rating of 1 which stacks with any other Armor that they have.
4. A Troll's Body rating starts out at 5 and has a maximum of rating of 10! Compared to the Humans starting Body of 1 and maximum of 6.
5. The maximum enhanced Body of a Troll is 15. A Human has a maximum enhanced Body of 9.
So, Trolls are not going to curl up into a ball in pain from a pimp slap.
dont make a mountain out of a molehill.
Too lazy to check - are there any Stun damage spells that are resisted solely with Willpower?
Against such the massive troll would curl up into a ball just as quickly as the puny 'uman...
Against such the massive troll would curl up into a ball just as quickly as the puny 'uman...
Stunbolt ...
SYL
SYL
Interesting, though - most Clubs now deal Physical Damage...
| QUOTE (snowRaven) |
| Too lazy to check - are there any Stun damage spells that are resisted solely with Willpower? Against such the massive troll would curl up into a ball just as quickly as the puny 'uman... |
The classic Stunbolt, or the variants Knockout (touch range) or Stunball (fun for the whole family).
P.S. Damn straight it should take the Troll down. Something has to.
Take two Narcojets. 
SYL
SYL
For my peace of mind I had to quickly check the toxin rules, and thankfuly, narcojets are resisted with Body and nothing else. (Still a good choice agaist a troll, but not as good as a stun bolt)
| QUOTE (Gomez) |
| Well first off. I would suggest reading the rules first before pronouncing that trolls are wimps. 1. Trolls and humans have the same starting and maximum Willpower. They both start with 1 Willpower and have a maximum of 6. 2. If the Damage value of an attack does not exceed the Armor piercing modified Armor rating then the attack does Stun damage instead of Lethal. So a 5L would become 5S. 3. You still resist the Damage Value of an attack with Body + Armor. Trolls have a natural Armor rating of 1 which stacks with any other Armor that they have. 4. A Troll's Body rating starts out at 5 and has a maximum of rating of 10! Compared to the Humans starting Body of 1 and maximum of 6. 5. The maximum enhanced Body of a Troll is 15. A Human has a maximum enhanced Body of 9. So, Trolls are not going to curl up into a ball in pain from a pimp slap. |
Not sure if your post was meant for me, but I'll respond as if it was.
First of all, I never suggested that a troll had a lower max willpower than humans.
Second of all, I was just commenting on how strange it was that a 10 foot troll that's built like a tank will soak up the lethal dmg...but then if he gets hit with stun damage that gets through (from any source), he drops just as quickly as a 5'10" human.
It shouldn't be a disadvantage for a troll to turn physical hits into stun hits with armor, because that means he will go down quicker than his bulk implies.
Either way, it is a minor gripe. I just thought it was strange, and thought I'd start a discussion on it since no one else had. If I was that slotted off about it, I would have been much more colorful in my language, lol. (see my rant on another thread about the cyberlimb rules in SR4 for that)
Also, I read the rules, thanks. I also realize Trolls are still the tanks of Shadowrun... heck, even more so in SR4. If I implied they are wimps, I apologize. Not my intention.... though I admit the subtitle to the thread was a little misleading (more to attract attention, lol).
-Ravennus
Thats why I persnonally liked the 10 box damage track. It really kept arguments like this at bay.
Simple matter is that yes, Trolls are slightly more vulnerable to stun attacks. The obvious retort to this would be that damage resistance is still made with Bod, (outside of certain magic attacks) which is the Trolls bread and butter.
In the past I have found that things like the Yamaha Pulsar and the good ol' mana bolt were a balancing factor against things like Trolls and Orks that just had so much carne asada under that secure long coat you couldnt put them down with anything less than a panther. It just has to boil down to letting go of the idea that those 40 BP's you spend on Troll aren't going to make you godhead. Just real close.
Simple matter is that yes, Trolls are slightly more vulnerable to stun attacks. The obvious retort to this would be that damage resistance is still made with Bod, (outside of certain magic attacks) which is the Trolls bread and butter.
In the past I have found that things like the Yamaha Pulsar and the good ol' mana bolt were a balancing factor against things like Trolls and Orks that just had so much carne asada under that secure long coat you couldnt put them down with anything less than a panther. It just has to boil down to letting go of the idea that those 40 BP's you spend on Troll aren't going to make you godhead. Just real close.
Actually the only metas with an edge over others in Stun are Dwarves. As Gomez pointed out (i forgot to double check other's assumptions 
) Trolls have the same natural Will cap as Humans, Orcs, and Elves. So Trolls aren't weaker at all than the norm, they are simply don't outclass the other metas in the number of boxes like they do with Physical damage boxes and have one less box than Dwarves do. Unless they take the Exception Attribute (Will), which then both a Troll and a Dwarf with the Exception Attribute (Will) have the same number of Stun boxes in their Condition Monitor with Dwarves having the slight edge in resisting some Stun sources and Trolls much more so resisting it in others.
) Trolls have the same natural Will cap as Humans, Orcs, and Elves. So Trolls aren't weaker at all than the norm, they are simply don't outclass the other metas in the number of boxes like they do with Physical damage boxes and have one less box than Dwarves do. Unless they take the Exception Attribute (Will), which then both a Troll and a Dwarf with the Exception Attribute (Will) have the same number of Stun boxes in their Condition Monitor with Dwarves having the slight edge in resisting some Stun sources and Trolls much more so resisting it in others.
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