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Sicarius
I'm at work, so my book isn't in front of me. But as I remember, the Viper Slivergun is 9S(f), 30© SA/BF and availablity between 5/6.

My question is? Can you just swap out the Flechettes for Regular Rounds (or EX-EX or APDS, etc) and have a decently concealable pistol at the appropriate damage rating but with a 30 round clip? Or, is the Sliver gun, unlike every other firearm in SR3 not receptive to different types of ammo?

Nyxll
Sorry .... the slivergun is flechette only. it has its own ammo as well, not just any hp flechette will do.
hahnsoo
There are several firearms that can only take its own custom rounds, including the Raecor Sting, the Viper Slivergun, and the Barret Sniper Rifle.
Bearclaw
Can I di-kote my Sliver gun ammo?
Nyxll
QUOTE (Bearclaw)
Can I di-kote my Sliver gun ammo?

I am pretty sure that rules state you cannot dikote ammo.

It would cook off. Dikoting takes a carbon plasma and covers the surface of the object.
Slacker
QUOTE
It would cook off. Dikoting takes a carbon plasma and covers the surface of the object.

That doesn't preclude dikoting the projectiles before putting them in the shell casing. smile.gif
Cray74
QUOTE (Slacker)
That doesn't preclude dikoting the projectiles before putting them in the shell casing. smile.gif

Beat me to it. Besides, you wouldn't want to dikote the slivers when they were pressed together in a shell - they'd bond into a solid bullet.
Nyxll
QUOTE (Slacker)
QUOTE
It would cook off. Dikoting takes a carbon plasma and covers the surface of the object.

That doesn't preclude dikoting the projectiles before putting them in the shell casing. smile.gif

You potentially could do that. But if I was a gm I would just rule that the melting point of the bullet is too low, and it loses its shape in the oven, or that it would cost nuyen.gif 1000 per bullet just to be a pain. There are much easier ways to munchkin your way around things.
Slacker
LOL. As a gm, there is no way in Hell I would allow anybody to dikote the ammo for the Slivergun. I was just saying that it should be physically possible.
Fox1
QUOTE (Slacker @ Sep 8 2005, 02:48 PM)
LOL. As a gm, there is no way in Hell I would allow anybody to dikote the ammo for the Slivergun. I was just saying that it should be physically possible.


Who knows if it was possible or not.

It may not coat smoothly enough, thus unbalancing the projectile and making it inaccurate at best.

It may not 'dry' evenly, thus warping the projectile with even worse results.

Or maybe the ammo for Sliverguns is already so coated, and thus is part of the base weapon stats.

I do believe however that the intent of the game is for it not to be possible.
Bearclaw
OK, so can I dikote my Ally spirit, and have one of it's manifestation forms be a Slivergun? Or would it's form be a "dikoted Slivergun"?
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Bearclaw)
OK, so can I dikote my Ally spirit, and have one of it's manifestation forms be a Slivergun? Or would it's form be a "dikoted Slivergun"?

Only if you have sex with it.
Bearclaw
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Sep 8 2005, 03:36 PM)
OK, so can I dikote my Ally spirit, and have one of it's manifestation forms be a Slivergun?  Or would it's form be a "dikoted Slivergun"?

Only if you have sex with it.

Sex with a dikoted Slivergun eek.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Bearclaw)
OK, so can I dikote my Ally spirit, and have one of it's manifestation forms be a Slivergun? Or would it's form be a "dikoted Slivergun"?

No, no, no. You bind a Free Spirit into a Slivergun (Dikotedô, of course) and use it's Wealth Power to create Dikotedô rounds.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Cray74)
QUOTE (Slacker @ Sep 8 2005, 05:32 PM)
That doesn't preclude dikoting the projectiles before putting them in the shell casing.  smile.gif

Beat me to it. Besides, you wouldn't want to dikote the slivers when they were pressed together in a shell - they'd bond into a solid bullet.

Stop acting like it made sense in the first place!
Dog
This thread, and the other one floating around, both bring up different visions of what 'slivergun' means in visual terms.

I've rolled this around in my own head a couple of times. Often I've imagined that 'sliver' was an exaggerated description of a particularily light, slim bullet, looking like a teeny rifle bullet, which would account for the high ammo capacity. Other visuals I've heard include a shotgun type of round that uses needles instead of pellets, (now how would that be silenced?) and a "salt shaker" looking muzzle with internal workings like a teensy rotary barrel gattling gun contraption, but somehow powered off a compressed gas mechanism (weird indeed).

Who's seen "bird shot?" We used to load them in .22's when I was a kid. Just like a miniature shotgun shell. Not exactly 9S devastating, though... unless you were a sparrow.

Anybody else got a visual on this? Can anyone refer us to a picture or more specific description of the mechanism that's published or posted?
Sicarius
http://www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/images/S014.jpg

That's my understanding, that a Flechette is actually a tiny sabot round. It does not make sense with the rules relating rounds to armor. According to a program I watched on TV, the round is SUPPOSED to penetrate armor, not as described.

But there are plenty of Gun nuts incarnate on the site, who can explain it fully I'm sure.

<casts Summon Gun Bunny>

<rolls for resisting drain>

Dog
Make fun of the gun bunnies and it's not drain you gotta worry about... (ducking!)
ShadowDragon8685
You coulden't dikote a bullet. It's the same reason bullets aren't made out of steel.

In the barrel, the bullet has to deform very slightly, to dig into the rifling, which lets it spin. Any material harder than lead, such as, ooooh, let's say steel, or titanium, or a diamond coated whatever, would be too hard, not dig in, and would fuck your barrel up, to boot.


So, if someone insists on having Dikoted bullets, probably a collector's item or something, and insists on adding powder charge and primer and firing it, well.... Not only is the bullet going to be a haaaair too big...

Call it, say, roll 2d6; below 4 = misfire. I doubt it would result in Carnage, oweing to the modern design of firearms in the 2060s, which probably have some sort of If pressure > X, where X is some number consistant with a misfire, then some sort of emergency valve facing forward on the gun pops, and you get a mother of a kick, but your gun basically survives. And requires a firearms BR test of 2 and about a miunte to fix.


However, none of this precludes dikoted flechette rounds. I woulden't let it do very MUCH more, but if you're willing to go to the extra cost, I'd maybe let it use it's full rating against armor.
hobgoblin
my take on the fletchette ammo for most handguns in SR sounds like a kind of shotgun light. most likely a series for small metal slivers that forms the shape of a "standard" bullet when loaded into the gun. but when fired the slivers break away and make for many small wounds. but if grouped just right on a unarmored target they should do more tissue damage then a normal bullet.

ie, its an extreme kind of hollow point, but with worse penetration nyahnyah.gif

but then im no firearms hobbyist (or gun nut as i think its more normaly called wink.gif ). hmm, that reminded me about some guy talking about the m-16 on a discovery channel program. the way he talked and held that gun made me wonder if he wanted to have sex with it...
toturi
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
You coulden't dikote a bullet. It's the same reason bullets aren't made out of steel.

In the barrel, the bullet has to deform very slightly, to dig into the rifling, which lets it spin. Any material harder than lead, such as, ooooh, let's say steel, or titanium, or a diamond coated whatever, would be too hard, not dig in, and would fuck your barrel up, to boot.

WTF? FMJ are steel over lead, even hollow points are steel over lead. Present day bullets are already made of steel, what the hell are you talking about? I'd wait for the resident gun gurus to ream you a new asshole.
Arethusa
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 9 2005, 09:35 AM)
You coulden't dikote a bullet. It's the same reason bullets aren't made out of steel.

In the barrel, the bullet has to deform very slightly, to dig into the rifling, which lets it spin. Any material harder than lead, such as, ooooh, let's say steel, or titanium, or a diamond coated whatever, would be too hard, not dig in, and would fuck your barrel up, to boot.

Toturi is correct. Full metal jacketed ammunition (and most everything else) is jacketed in either copper and zinc or copper coated steel. The jacket prevents barrel wear and damage to the weapon; it doesn't cause it. There are even steel cored and steel/tungsten bullets (like the 5.7x28mm SS109), and the P90 and Five-seveN may suck, but they shoot fine. I'm afraid you are completely incorrect.


QUOTE (Sicarius)
That's my understanding, that a Flechette is actually a tiny sabot round. It does not make sense with the rules relating rounds to armor. According to a program I watched on TV, the round is SUPPOSED to penetrate armor, not as described.

But there are plenty of Gun nuts incarnate on the site, who can explain it fully I'm sure.

To perhaps oversimplify, you are more or less correct, and Shadowrun is dependably more or less wrong. Flechettes, in real life, are small metal slivers with excellent aerodynamic characteristics and equally excellent penetration. They don't do very much damage because, as the root of their name suggests, they are small arrows. A flechette shotgun shell, in real life, is basically a shot shell filled with a bunch of large needles.

In Shadowrun, flechettes made/make no fucking sense in SR3, as they are the exact opposite of what they are in real life, and function more like Unreal Tournament's flak cannon than anything else. I don't know if this is the case in SR4, but it probably is.
Fox1
QUOTE (toturi)
WTF? FMJ are steel over lead, even hollow points are steel over lead. Present day bullets are already made of steel, what the hell are you talking about? I'd wait for the resident gun gurus to ream you a new asshole.

FMJ are typically a copper jacket over lead as are hollow points. Copper has a nice low friction value against steel which makes it the metal of choice. There were some experiments with Teflon, but I believe that line of development ended due to insignificant gain.


Common AP rounds have steel cores covered in copper although it varies depending upon the exact design. The .223 round for the M-16 series for example has a steel insert in lead both covered with a copper jacket and is perhaps best thought of as a fragmenting semi-ap round under ideal conditions...

Lead by the way is being replaced by new composite materials in the US military due to enviromental concerns.



Fox1
QUOTE (Arethusa)
To perhaps oversimplify, you are more or less correct, and Shadowrun is dependably more or less wrong. Flechettes, in real life, are small metal slivers with excellent aerodynamic characteristics and equally excellent penetration. They don't do very much damage because, as the root of their name suggests, they are small arrows. A flechette shotgun shell, in real life, is basically a shot shell filled with a bunch of large needles.

Basically correct.

The penetration ability however is somewhat overstated. They are not an AP round as such but are better than larger diameter but equal weight round shot.

Their main advantage over round shot is that their more aerodynamic shape results in less energy loss as the round travels, this resulting in more remaining energy upon impact on the target. Thus their use in shotgun like heavy weapons such as beehive rounds where they are exploded outward in huge numbers.

They've never successfully been field in small arms that I'm aware of. The US did produce a prototype rifle back in the 70s I think it was, but production of flechette was too expensive given the greater need for fine tolerance control. They also tend to individually lack stopping power due to a very small diameter. This weapon used a sabot like round in order to launch the flechette.


The 'brick ammo' idea is pure sci-fi and would require not only a brick that could produce exactly uniform flechettes- it would likely have to use a gauss like action as it would be missing the sabot. The lack of fins would be a major problem and I'm not sure how the projectile would be stabilized in flight...
Arethusa
I don't remember where I read it or how reliable the source was, but I do recall reading about 12ga flechette shells being used to clear trees of snipers in Vietnam.

Flechettes were also pitched to the US military in the form of Steyr's ill conceived and equally fated ACR.

And, yeah, brick ammo is just utterly silly rubbish.
ShadowDragon8685
Toturi, that was entirely uncalled for. I never said it was impossible if you decided to use an FMJ around it. It's simply very, very impractical.

Think about it. The only possible reason you'd want to dikote something is to make it retain it's shape. This results in impossibly hard and sharp bladed weapons that do not lose their shape, and can retain an impossibly sharp shape long after any similar shape of titanium steel would have become dulled.


However, this is NOT what you want from a bullet. You want the bullet to deform inside the target if at all possible. If you dikote the bullet, it's not going to deform, and you're going to get overall less damage. And if you're dikoting a standard round-nosed bullet, it's going to do less damage still, because it's going to penetrate even less. It might be SLIGHTLY more effective against ballistic armor, but you'd lose a whole damage code to ignore 2 pts of Ballistic armor.

On the other hand, if you dikote a round that's already AP, you've created... An extremely expensive AP round. It dosen't have the velocity to be antivehicular in any sense, even if it does retain it's shape.

So all you're doing is taking an expensive AP round, and making it extremely expensive.
toturi
I do not understand why my pointing out a gross mistake uncalled for. A bullet is generally made of steel over a lead core. The steel may be further coated with some other material, but it is not the default. Or at least I think the default bullet used in any army is the FMJ and is the one that is generally available and what people think of when someone mentions the word "bullet".
ShadowDragon8685
No, Toturi, even the fancy bullets are lead (or material with similar properties) over a steel (or tungsten, or DP, or etcetera) core. If you have naked steel going down the barrel, you are going to fuck your barrel up, at best.
jervinator
What about smoothbores? Many tank guns are smoothbores and fire (among other things) FIN-stabilized projectiles, as opposed to the SPIN-stabilized projectile of most small arms. And some Discarding Sabot rounds that can be fired from a rifled barrel allow the sabot to spin around the fin-stabilized penetrator making the rifled barrel undesirable at best.
Anyone who fires flechette rounds from a rifled barrel is a moron. They would disperse multiple flechettes to a virtually unusable spread, and for a single penetrator, the small diameter would not allow enough rotational momentum for spin-stabilization to work for long. Flechettes are for smoothbores and if you shoot at any sort of range, will be fin-stabilized.... at added cost.
Given a proper sabot, I see no reason to disallow Dikoted flechettes. If the players want to spend mucho nuyen on armor-piercing ammo that causes much less wounding than normal ammo. Let them spend 1500 nuyen per round on ammo that only inflicts 1 box of damage!
toturi
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
No, Toturi, even the fancy bullets are lead (or material with similar properties) over a steel (or tungsten, or DP, or etcetera) core. If you have naked steel going down the barrel, you are going to fuck your barrel up, at best.

Which is why I say that the bullets that most people think of are the copper-coated steel-jacket over the lead core kind. But most people will not think of the copper/brass jacket bullet as the default bullet.
Fox1
QUOTE (toturi @ Sep 8 2005, 11:33 PM)
Which is why I say that the bullets that most people think of are the copper-coated steel-jacket over the lead core kind. But most people will not think of the copper/brass jacket bullet as the default bullet.

Sigh.

That's not how it works.

FMJ is lead (or lead like) with a copper or copper alloy jacket. And yes, anyone who knows anything about firearms will consider this the default bullet.

If it's AP or semi-AP, it's a Steel (or other hard/dense material) core, sometimes with lead or lead like covering that, and *then* a copper (or copper alloy) jacket.

Steel NEVER touches the barrel. That's bad, even in a smoothbore.
toturi
Maybe I don't know anythng about firearms... but my GPMG use copper coated steel jacketed lead core bullets. And I fired enough rounds to know (250 belt, 6-7 belts per exercise, more exercises than I care to count...)
Clyde
Steel can be harder or softer depending upon how it's tempered. Very well hardened steel would be extremely bad for a gunbarrel. Hence the teflon coating in some armor piercing ammunition. Milder steel . . . it won't be as soft as lead but it'll probably be softer than the barrel and I'd figure that's what counts.
Raygun
Yes, some bullet jackets are made of soft steel rather than guilding alloy (copper/zinc).
ShadowDragon8685
Actually, when you say "Bullet", I think of round-nosed Ball ammo. It's simply the cheapest you can find, and when you're on a budger, especially at the range, that's what's most important.

For carry loads, of course I'm going to go for something with more stopping power, like FMJ Hollow Point. But it'll be lead, not steel. Steel dosen't deform as much as you want, anyway.
Tziluthi
Yeah, I think it was pretty harsh calling ShadowDragon out like that. A simple correction would have sufficed in place of a threat of ass-reaming or what have you, but that's in the past now (which begs the question of why anyone would bring it up again...SELF-OWNED!). And anyway, doesn't one ream an existing asshole? I was under the impression that a new asshole (or arsehole for those of the traditional persuasion) was torn into being. I guess you could ream an asshole until it was a good as new, but it just wouldn't be the same, would it?

In any case, I too was under the impression that steel is generally bad for barrel rifling, which, I guess is why AP bullets are steel cored, rather than pure steel. But in the case of flechette ammunition, even in brick form, it might be in a sabot. Of course, it would probably be bad idea to put a (synthetic-?)diamond coating on something that is supposed to fragment, and it would be difficult to put back into brick form once you have pulled it apart to dikote it, if you were going to do it that way.

QUOTE
Flechettes were also pitched to the US military in the form of Steyr's ill conceived and equally fated ACR.

But it looked pretty cool, though. Or at least I thought it did.
Fox1
QUOTE (Clyde @ Sep 9 2005, 01:02 AM)
Steel can be harder or softer depending upon how it's tempered.  Very well hardened steel would be extremely bad for a gunbarrel.  Hence the teflon coating in some armor piercing ammunition.  Milder steel . . . it won't be as soft as lead but it'll probably be softer than the barrel and I'd figure that's what counts.

As I already noted above, teflon coated steel is:

a) still not a steel jacket, it's a teflon jacket

and

b) has been abandoned for the most part in modern ammo. It didn't provide enough advantage for the cost.


I know of no modern "mild steel" AP rounds, the very concept is counter-productive not only for penetrating armor, but in the increased friction of steel on steel. You'd lose velocity and increase barrel wear no matter how mild it was.

It is possible that lack of copper and other suitable metal resulted in some production of mild steel rounds somewhere I suppose- and I'd feel sorry for anyone forced into such production.


Cray74
QUOTE (Slacker)
LOL. As a gm, there is no way in Hell I would allow anybody to dikote the ammo for the Slivergun. I was just saying that it should be physically possible.

I'd allow it and say it adds nothing to the bullet. Coatings do not always make things better.
Cray74
QUOTE (Clyde @ Sep 9 2005, 06:02 AM)
Steel can be harder or softer depending upon how it's tempered.


And depending on the alloy. Some steels do not respond to quench/temper heat cycles. Others respond easily. Some steels end up embrittled with a quenching cycle that makes another steel tougher and stronger.
Raygun
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
For carry loads, of course I'm going to go for something with more stopping power, like FMJ Hollow Point. But it'll be lead, not steel. Steel dosen't deform as much as you want, anyway.

You probably meant to say JHP (Jacketed Hollow Point) there. Full Metal Jacket and Hollow Point are two mutually exclusive bullet types, at least when it comes to handguns, which is what I assume you're talking about considering "round-nosed ball ammo" and all. FMJ "ball" bullets for rifles are spitzer-shaped (pointed). Have been pretty much since 1906.

QUOTE (Fox1)
As I already noted above, teflon coated steel is:

a) still not a steel jacket, it's a teflon jacket

and

b) has been abandoned for the most part in modern ammo. It didn't provide enough advantage for the cost.

The whole teflon coating thing came from a product of a company called KTW, who developed armor-piercing munitions (originally a case-hardened steel core, then sintered tungsten alloy, then brass) for handguns for the US police market. A thick, green teflon coating (yes, coating. not jacket; there is no jacket at all) was used to reduce friction between the projectile and bore. NBC found out about the ammunition and ran a completely unfounded story about "cop killer bullets" which Ted Kennedy apparently saw and went apeshit over.

http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/copkill.html
http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel2...00403010926.asp
http://www.logicsouth.com/~lcoble/2ndamend/ammo.txt

A couple of ammunition manufacturers use teflon to coat their non-jacketed lead bullets. I have a couple boxes of .22 LR Remington "Game Load" that are teflon coated. It helps prevent barrel leading.

QUOTE
I know of no modern "mild steel" AP rounds, the very concept is counter-productive not only for penetrating armor, but in the increased friction of steel on steel. You'd lose velocity and increase barrel wear no matter how mild it was.

It is possible that lack of copper and other suitable metal resulted in some production of mild steel rounds somewhere I suppose- and I'd feel sorry for anyone forced into such production.

I don't know exactly which alloys are used for steel-cored AP bullets, but I read somewhere that both the US and USSR used "mild steel" (I suppose that means it's not heat-treated) penetrators for AP small arm cartridges, at least prior to 1990 (for the US, that would mean 30-06 M2AP and 7.62x51mm M61). 30-06 M2AP is classed to penetrate at least 0.42" (10.6mm) of homogeneous armor plate (whatever that means) at 100 yards. It all depends on what you're planning on penetrating. Of course, some hardened steels and other alloys will generally resist deformation better. These days the US uses tungsten carbide penetrators in AP ammunition (M993, M995).

There aren't any non-jacketed or non-sabotted AP rounds that I'm aware of, but I do know for a fact that jackets for military ammunition are often made of soft steel (German 7.62x51mm FMJ comes immediately to mind), so there's plenty of steel-on-steel contact in the bore happening around the world.
Fox1
QUOTE (Raygun)
I don't know exactly which alloys are used for steel-cored AP bullets


This has already been stated. Steel Core- yes, Steel on steel in the barrel- no.

QUOTE (Raygun)

but I do know for a fact that jackets for military ammunition are often made of soft steel (German 7.62x51mm FMJ comes immediately to mind), so there's plenty of steel-on-steel contact in the bore happening around the world.


Your 'fact' is wrong.

The German round uses a copper plated steel jacket in order to prevent steel on steel contact. See http://www.fen-net.de/norbert.arnoldi/army/wound.html (warning- silly music at the site).

Quoted from there:
"The construction of the West German 7.62 NATO bullet differs from the US 7.62 NATO round in that the jacket material is copper plated steel"
Raygun
QUOTE (Fox1 @ Sep 10 2005, 03:20 AM)
Your 'fact' is wrong.

The German round uses a copper plated steel jacket in order to prevent steel on steel contact. See http://www.fen-net.de/norbert.arnoldi/army/wound.html (warning- silly music at the site).

That's nice and all (you can actually find that same article on my site), but have you ever actually seen one of those copper-plated steel jackets after it went through the barrel? The rifling digs some pretty nice gashes right through that copper plating. The plating itself does little more than look nice and keep the jacket from rusting. I gaurantee you there's plenty of steel-on-steel contact going on through the bore. Not all steels are alike, Fox. Some are softer than others and present no significant increase in barrel wear over guilding alloy.
Fox1
QUOTE (Raygun @ Sep 9 2005, 10:31 PM)
That's nice and all (you can actually find that same article on my site), but have you ever actually seen one of those copper-plated steel jackets after it went through the barrel? The rifling digs some pretty nice gashes right through that copper plating.

Such breaks in the plating minor in the overall effect for it does what it needs to do- i.e. reduce friction at it's most critical point, in the throat of the barrel

Without the plating, wear is serious and will quickly result in an inaccurate weapon. It's not a simple matter of hardness; it's a matter of the greater friction that results from steel on steel.

I have heard of people using rather mild steel bullets without any coating for very specific purposes- bench rifle and .50 cal long range rifle. The goal was to reduce any barrel fouling that occurs with plating. However all such use noted the shorter barrel life and typically suggest only using chrome-moly barrels to make the best of a bad deal.

BTW, I find the lack of attribution for the articles on your website distressing.
Raygun
Okay, dude. You can go on thinking copper plating on a steel jacketed bullet makes some massive amount of difference as far as friction is concerned. I really don't have any way to prove to you that it doesn't other than to possibly show you that there just isn't much copper left on the contact surfaces between the jacket and the bore after the bullet leaves the muzzle. It simply cannot do much good, especially at that other critical point of the barrel; the muzzle.

I was pretty much wrong about steel-on-steel contact anyway. Rifles that use steel jacketed ammunition usually have chrome-plated bores.

QUOTE
BTW, I find the lack of attribution for the articles on your website distressing.

Am I really getting to you that bad? Well, I try to give credit where it is due, but I have been known to miss a page occasionally. Which articles in particular are you distressed about?
Foreigner
I'm curious about something.

I had a random thought flit through my head just now (I sometimes think that my train of thought is either an express or a runaway eek.gif ):

Would it be possible to silver-plate Slivergun projectiles to make them more effective against shapeshifters and other Awakened paracritters with that vulnerability?

(And yes, I *do* realize that, if flechette ammunition is your choice, silver-plating conventional flechette ammo--especially for a shotgun--would probably be a more cost-effective option, as would loading an Ares Supersquirt with a mixture of water, silver nitrate and/or colloidal silver, and dimethyl sufoxide.)

Please, NO flames.

--Foreigner
Fox1
QUOTE (Raygun)
I really don't have any way to prove to you that it doesn't other than to possibly show you that there just isn't much copper left on the contact surfaces between the jacket and the bore after the bullet leaves the muzzle..


I would think it would be clear that energy spent damaging the coating is energy not spent damaging the barrel.

But beyond that I'm at the same impass.

As I said, there are pure mild steel bullets made for use in 50 BMG long range rifle shooting. My sources say it's a case of trading reduced fouling for hell on barrel life.

My only suggestion for proving the point now to you is to go buy yourself such a rifle with an extra barrel and do your own tests. You seem to be someone who has to see it for yourself.

For what it's worth, you're the only person I've ever seen who is making the claim you have.

QUOTE (Raygun)

I was pretty much wrong about steel-on-steel contact anyway. Rifles that use steel jacketed ammunition usually have chrome-plated bores.


smile.gif

Even those wear at a increased rate without a coating on the bullet.


QUOTE (Raygun)

Am I really getting to you that bad? Well, I try to give credit where it is due, but I have been known to miss a page occasionally. Which articles in particular are you distressed about?


You're not getting to me at all.

I simply didn't expect to see a word for word copied article on your website without immediate and clear links back to the original if online (or reference to a dead tree source with standard bibliography info). A name alone is not a proper reference nor is a different page with general source links.

You're not alone in such things on the net, and I'm not calling it a major foul. But I still consider it a sad state of affairs.
Sketchy
What about dikoting the barrel? After all, don't you dikote things to prevent them from deforming?
Eddie Furious
Toturi,

I was a gunner once. We never used anything called steel jacketed. We were issued 7.62 x 51mm Nato Full Metal Jacket Disintegrating Link - Belted for the jimpy. I was a bit of a gun bunny, mostly in the use, not the tweaking. You know, hopping rounds into dead zones, making funny shaped lanes, putting up range markers with rude pictures, etc... The round was designed with a copper jacket or in some cases a crazy zinc (I believe), which can lead people to believe it is steel. I guarantee you it is not a steel jacket, if it were, you would burn out the rifling and possibly warp the barrel in a matter of a hundred rounds. I know of which I speak. Me and some guys spent a half a day scrounging out all the tracer ammo once to play "STAR WARS" with the L7s on a night firing ex once. We almost burnt out five barrels and that was simply with tracer rounds*!
I have also glowed barrels with the BFA and blank rounds (Granted, we pushed 1200 "rounds" through two barrels in three minutes...)

And as an aside, if you are dikoting rounds, which are put under a great deal of force (acceleration out of the barrel has to be akin to smashing it with a hammer) wouldn't the coating simply shatter or deform at certain points, causing spurs which would decrease their performance?

*No charges were laid during this fiasco, but boy did we get rickies!
Eddie Furious
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 9 2005, 04:25 AM)
Actually, when you say "Bullet", I think of round-nosed Ball ammo. It's simply the cheapest you can find, and when you're on a budger, especially at the range, that's what's most important.

For carry loads, of course I'm going to go for something with more stopping power, like FMJ Hollow Point. But it'll be lead, not steel. Steel dosen't deform as much as you want, anyway.

I would just use the "FMJ" or "MILITARY BALL" ammo which as Raygun has indicated is rather pointy, they are two names for the same creature. Pushing hollow pointed stuff out an assault rifle will only lead to heartache and a very unhappy time as the rounds bang up against the feed tray. Not often, but often enough to make you feel like it is all the time.

If you want to have a military rifle operate "reliably" use the ammo geometry and powder measurement they have approved for it, nothing else.
Fox1
QUOTE (Sketchy @ Sep 10 2005, 03:34 PM)
What about dikoting the barrel? After all, don't you dikote things to prevent them from deforming?

You'd have to bore the barrel so that you don't decrease the diameter with the thickness of the coating.

After that, we have no idea how the dikote would respond to the pressure and heat of firing. For all we know it may soften or flake resulting in massive barrel fouling or worse.

Remember, we don't know anything about this stuff except what's in the rulebook. Nothing of its design limits that could prove critical in cases such as this.

Thus the simple, safe, and most correct method is to assume that dikote can only be applied to the uses specified in the rules- and that any other uses encounter unknown and undesired side-effects that make them counter-productive and even dangerous.
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