Name one. And no, d20 does not count. d20 is very good at what it attempts to do: create a simple, streamlined, nearly (difficult) math-free environment for heroic-style fantasy gaming. It does what it's supposed to do very well, and the mechanics of the d20 system match up with the flavor of d&d well enough that it keeps from getting in the way of the storytelling and roleplaying, which is the best you can really hope for with a system to simple.

I contend that a clunky game system cannot fluorish if the mechanics actually interfere with the style of play it was designed for. The exception to this are things like that movie Plan 9 from Outer Space: oddities kept around simply because they are oddities, campy, banal.

Anyone that I end up playing Shadowrun with will be playing "Fox1s houeruled history".

You are of course free to limit your purchases. And you are free to do so based upon nothing more than the presence of immortal elves and all powerful dragons. I'm just expressing a bit of wonder that those two minor points would cause you to do so.

But everyone has a different point at which something becomes unacceptable. I would do the exact same thing with the only difference being the theshold amount of objectionable material.

I'm worrying about 4th edition being that break point. Cyberware being considered obsolete? No more classic Matrix even in image if not mechanics (I didn't like the change from 2nd to 3rd edition)?

I wish the book was out...

i'm definitely judgemental, but you're not the target. the target is the SR4 devs, and the game they've put out.

for the record, ell is a she, not a he.

Understanding something is almost always - objectively speaking - better than not understanding it, as long as the subject itself is worth knowing. (which is where we seem to be in disagreement)

No one is saying that you're a worse person for enjoying RPGs your way, but don't say "ignorance is bliss" and expect universal agreement.

One could also state that the squirrel impressionist movement of the early 23rd century had a major impact on the evolution of metallic breakfast cereals...

I could do far more than than. Heck SR 3rd edition counts itself and in spades.

A TN modifier system where a modifier may not modify? Silly beyond belief.

A die resolution system that requires GMs to make extensive cheat sheets covering game probabilities if he's interested in matching TNs that he must chose to his specific PC group? Clunky in the extreme.

I could go on and on.

But SR was and is a successful game with many people having buckets of fun? How could that be?

Because problems like those didn't bother them. So what if a TN 6 and 7 provide identical results, just don't pay attention. So what if I can't easily figure out success chances, more dice = better and I'll get a 'feel' for it somewhere along the line. It's all just a minor point.

A game's success depends upon its players ignoring or avoiding its weaknesses. And players are good at it.

And so designers don't bother to correct the problems. Deadlands comes out years latter than SR, and it still has the TN 'feature' in its rules. Players have been proven to be very accepting of even obvious mechanical defects in their games. Why spend the effect to fix it?

And because players are so accepting of such game design, those who would desire more from their game mechanics are left in the cold- making house rules to correct simple errors at best, or coverting entire game settings to different rules at worse.

It wasn't meant to be disdainful. I certainly respect your method of gaming although from what I've seen so far it is very different indeed than my own.

I've know people who played without any rules at all. And I've seen others that played with rules that were exceedly bad for what they were doing. They can do so well, and with great results.

Best wishes for much future fun.

Actually, if you go strictly by the book and its rules - even outside digital warfare, most elemental mechanics in SR4 are simply less stupid or broken: Check out the rules for Languages, Vehicles or even Weapons...