Specializations. Munchkin joy.
1) Unarmed has a specialization of 'Martial Arts'. Is there ever a time when this _wouldn't_ apply, getting 2 dice for everything except cyber-implants?
2) Pistols has a specialization of 'Semi-Automatics'. And what does everybody use 90% of the time?
Full Version: Munchkin-Fu
Unarmed Combat was always a wonky one regarding specialization,and always annoyed me, even in older editions... the Martial arts rules in Connon Companion helped a little, but still... I generally just disallowed Specializations for those.
For 4th ed, I'm going to allow them, but it has to be for specific situations. Generally Defensive or Offensive, which means they wouldn;t get their extra dice about half the time.
For Pistols, I'll have to check that out when I get home. I had thought that Specializations for this sort of thing were supposed to be weapon specific... So you could Specialize in Ares Predator IV or Ruger Warhawk.
But yeah, as a GM, I generally treat specializations very carefully... Plus,my players are all well aware of my rule of "You abuse it,I abuse it back." Specializations and Sniper Rifles are fine and Dandy, until the bad guys starting using them against you.
Bull
For 4th ed, I'm going to allow them, but it has to be for specific situations. Generally Defensive or Offensive, which means they wouldn;t get their extra dice about half the time.
For Pistols, I'll have to check that out when I get home. I had thought that Specializations for this sort of thing were supposed to be weapon specific... So you could Specialize in Ares Predator IV or Ruger Warhawk.
But yeah, as a GM, I generally treat specializations very carefully... Plus,my players are all well aware of my rule of "You abuse it,I abuse it back." Specializations and Sniper Rifles are fine and Dandy, until the bad guys starting using them against you.
Bull
| QUOTE (ef31415) |
| 1) Unarmed has a specialization of 'Martial Arts'. Is there ever a time when this _wouldn't_ apply, getting 2 dice for everything except cyber-implants? |
It also probably should not apply in Parrying or Subduing combat. In other words, you only get those dice when doing an offensive attack with Unarmed combat rather than using it defensively in parrying or using it for Shock hands or Subduing combat. You should, as a GM or prospective player, put further restrictions on it as well (only in open areas, only when both hands and feet are usable, whatever). Just like making a new Geas in MitS.
| QUOTE |
| 2) Pistols has a specialization of 'Semi-Automatics'. And what does everybody use 90% of the time? |
Well, you can't use Tasers, Revolvers, and other pistol-like weaponry that fall in the skill. But since Machine Pistols have been folded into Automatics, yes, there is very little point in getting anything other than Semi-Automatics, unless you are a Revolver specialist like my Dwarf Gunslinger Adept. 
Specializations almost amount to "free +2" dice, in terms of low Karma cost and the fact that it raises value as the skill increases. *shrugs* Considering the penalties that can accrue for both of those skills in combat, you'll probably need as many dice as you can get.
Specializations almost amount to "free +2" dice, in terms of low Karma cost and the fact that it raises value as the skill increases. *shrugs* Considering the penalties that can accrue for both of those skills in combat, you'll probably need as many dice as you can get.
If you select a martial art as a specialization, I'd rule that you can attack with the bonus all the time. However, you may not defend with the bonus unless your opponent is using the same martial art. Each style has different preferences and attitudes - some work well for long range, others for close in work. But practitioners of an art are at their highest level of performance working within their own comfort zone. Almost by definition, when the other guy is initiating some foreign attack you'll be outside your comfort zone.
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) | ||
It also probably should not apply in Parrying or Subduing combat. In other words, you only get those dice when doing an offensive attack with Unarmed combat rather than using it defensively in parrying or using it for Shock hands or Subduing combat. You should, as a GM or prospective player, put further restrictions on it as well (only in open areas, only when both hands and feet are usable, whatever). Just like making a new Geas in MitS. |
That's not remotely reasonable. Better to just ban martial arts as a specialization in favour of things that are, y'know, actually balanced, but none of those things are outside the ken of "martial arts", nor even outside the areas of certain specific martial arts.
~J
Specializations are just wrong as printed. 2BP for 2 more dice, and it grows as you increase the base skill. I mean the only thing with stronger munchkin-fu is musle toner bioware. I mean smartlink is not even as janktastic anymore, and they removed the penality for the non-cybered version. So, now every mage does not even have to consider implants. They just need a sprite guarding their PAN 
/houseules sofar: it costs 2BP for each point of specialization, its still a great deal but not nearly as munchy as it is written.
/houseules sofar: it costs 2BP for each point of specialization, its still a great deal but not nearly as munchy as it is written.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| That's not remotely reasonable. Better to just ban martial arts as a specialization in favour of things that are, y'know, actually balanced, but none of those things are outside the ken of "martial arts", nor even outside the areas of certain specific martial arts. |
Well, I'm merely presenting the specialization as a mutually exclusive option, as it is presented in the SR4 Core book (you can only have one specialization for any given skill, after all). There are multiple ways to interpret the various specializations of each skill, and there's some overlap on some of the key specializations, I will agree (any vehicle skill and the Remote Operation specialization, for example). I'm just offering one interpretation, that's all. I don't believe it is asinine or unbalancing to split it off into such categories, especially if one considers Parrying to be an Aikido (or other "avoidance" martial art) specialization or Subduing Combat to be a "grappling" martial art specialization. I'm not interested in getting into a Martial Arts Trivia pissing contest here.
Certainly I'm not suggesting splitting the specialization by individual martial artmartial arts have no place in the specialization system anyway. What I'm objecting to is splitting into things like Parrying, Offensive Combat, Defense, whatever, while still calling it "martial arts".
~J
~J
Have martial arts specializations only apply when fighting using tournament rules.
I'm not terribly happy with the specializations as listed in the book either...too wide-open for interpretation.
I'll probably go with:
- Grappling (for subduing, choking, throwing, etc.)
- Striking (for kicking, punching, etc.)
- Defensive (for parrying, blocking, dodging melee, etc.)
I'll probably go with:
- Grappling (for subduing, choking, throwing, etc.)
- Striking (for kicking, punching, etc.)
- Defensive (for parrying, blocking, dodging melee, etc.)
Look at it this way: Silat uses cyber implant weaponry in 2070, so the right Martial Art specialization would apply even to your cyber spurs. But more importantly: so what?
Unarmed Combat sucks. It's just like ranged combat except:
it doesn't have any range
it takes a complex action
your opponent gets to add their dodge or close combat skill to their defense dice.
That's completely ass! If people get a practically free 2 dice to their attack rolls - I don't honestly care. It's the least I can do for people having to put up with the fact that their chosen method of combat is the suck.
I would give people those 2 dice for free. And I want people who perform unarmed combat to periodically describe what their character does. So it's a perfect world after all - they have to write up a little bit of character background, and then they get 2 extra dice to try to make their combat style suck a little less.
-Frank
Unarmed Combat sucks. It's just like ranged combat except:
it doesn't have any range
it takes a complex action
your opponent gets to add their dodge or close combat skill to their defense dice.
That's completely ass! If people get a practically free 2 dice to their attack rolls - I don't honestly care. It's the least I can do for people having to put up with the fact that their chosen method of combat is the suck.
I would give people those 2 dice for free. And I want people who perform unarmed combat to periodically describe what their character does. So it's a perfect world after all - they have to write up a little bit of character background, and then they get 2 extra dice to try to make their combat style suck a little less.
-Frank
Specializations have changed into a free bonus. Thereīs no longer any question weather or not you take one. Iīm going to assume everyone who can will specialize in a skill they use a lot. This will apply to the oposition as well.
In the end you could view it as being worse at things youīre not as familiar with just as soon as to view it as a huge bonus to the thing you do the most (not really, but you get the idea). I do not think it will be unballanced as long as I remind my players to take advantage of it whenever possible, so that it is not utilised by some to outpower the others.
In the end you could view it as being worse at things youīre not as familiar with just as soon as to view it as a huge bonus to the thing you do the most (not really, but you get the idea). I do not think it will be unballanced as long as I remind my players to take advantage of it whenever possible, so that it is not utilised by some to outpower the others.
| QUOTE (Bull) |
| But yeah, as a GM, I generally treat specializations very carefully... Plus,my players are all well aware of my rule of "You abuse it,I abuse it back." Specializations and Sniper Rifles are fine and Dandy, until the bad guys starting using them against you. |
Wow, my GM must have gone to the same school as you!
We just started an SR4 campaign. We quickly figured out how he was calculating the dice pools the enemies used. He'd just look at whoever in the party had the biggest dice pool for a given task and made that what all of the enemies used.
Obviously, there was only one thing we could do.
We immediately began performing lobotomys on one another in a desperate effort to reduce our skills as low as possible. As long as our skills were low to non-existant, our enemies would be similarily wimpy. After all, he'd only throw whatever we could throw!
We soon realized the folly of our ways. WE HAD FORGOTTEN ABOUT AGILITY! We still had dice pools large enough to have a good probability of getting a hit with a weapon! We went south to Aztechnology and begged them to perform Genetherapy on us to give us whatever Steven Hawking had. They told us it was amyotrophic lateral sclerosis and were happy to oblige. They were always in need of new test subjects.
Right now, the party is planning a run on the kitchen in our hospital. We think we can successfully steal some of the good stuff. I KNOW those bastards are holding out on us. Seeing as how the rest of the world is coping with outbreaks of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis and Down Syndrome of pandemic porportions that even affected already-born individuals, we're pretty confident we can do it. If we can just get some modifiers to reduce their perception tests, we're all but guaranteed to reduce their pool to a Longshot test. I'm gambling that greasing my wheels will do the trick, but we're also going to try to cause electrical shorts in every room we go in by drooling into electric sockets or just flicking them off at the switch. As a backup plan, the former party mage(He took up marijuana in a desperate effort to destroy his magic rating) has filched a fork and will use it to sabotage the place if he has to.
Overall, I have to say that his policy of 'Anything you can do I'll do too' is pretty good. The other party members think he's just an uncreative bastard who can't min/max so he just copies off of us, but I know they're wrong. He's really just the best GM on the planet. Look at how many other people came up with this SAME IDEA! Great minds think alike, eh!
Obviously, we should never come up with clever, rules-legal ideas. We should only do the obvious things in every game, but not the BEST things because then you'd be a dirty filthy pinko commie who's out to steal our precious bodily fluids and we'd have to kill you with an elaborate Rube Goldberg device that involves a CD rom, an opened box of Doritos from the year 2002, and a chain-smoking orangutan named George. Anyway, if something was broken, he'd just ban it instead of using it himself. As he is better than Jesus he could never do an imperfect action and thus his policy MUST BE RIGHT! I know he's better than Jesus because he gave me this book called 'Diagnosis' that told me about how I need to become Clear and then he told me he was already Clear and could totally throw cars around like tin cans as long as no one else was watching. I think it has to do with Schrodinger's cat, but maybe it's the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle, but it doesn't matter because he's Clear and that's that.
I'm so glad you are around to remind me of just how totally awesome my GM is! Not that I'd forget anything, but I like being reminded. It's like how you always tell your girlfriend how pretty she is before you slug that gold-digging slut in the face! She likes it just like I like my reminders. I'm sure you're just as good a GM as mine, after all, you're using the same ideas he does.
For creating such lucid explanations to concepts so complex, I salute you.
That attempt at humor just makes you look very pretentious. If you're going to mock someone, at least do it with some smileys so that you conceal your maliciousness.
| QUOTE (Modesitt) |
| For creating such lucid explanations to concepts so complex, I salute you. |
Heh. Thanks, I needed a good chuckle.
I would note, however, that despite the fact you apparently disagree with one of my personal GM decisions, does not make it wrong or right. And being condescending about it? Let's not do that anymore here, ok?
Bull
| QUOTE (Bull) |
| the Martial arts rules in Connon Companion helped a little, but still... I generally just disallowed Specializations for those. |
*g* So did the martial arts rules themselves ... No specializations for martial arts under CC rules ...
Sorry... I meant prior to the MA rules in CC I had generally disallowed specializations.
Bull
Bull
I think coming back to the base help making rules after.
1 Martial Art means (to me) training until the point it becomes art in a martial (= violent, military or something like that) application
This meaning seems especially important since a lot of "martial art" branches - kung fu wuchu, budo in japan, old version of yoga means the opposite of "martial" art.
Budo or Wuchu could be translated as "the brave who stop the violence without using it" when "martial" comes from Mars, god of the war (his behavior being quite violent)
2 Martial arts (as they are generally called) eventually teach (for a lot of them) that using a weapon is close to using no weapon.
3 There is a lot of "martial arts" that are in fact a complete training in a wide area of fighting (grapple, hit, push, using most of the part of the body)
With that I would state :
(3) a global method should not be allowed as a specialization (!)
(2) the real skill of fighting isn't so fragmented as written in sr rules (unarmed, club, blades), therefore the concept of martial arts is not applicable in the sr4 rules,
(1) but any good skill should be linked to a particular style (any martial skill at a high rank means a particular (or even a few) technic is used anyway
So in the end you could simulate a tai shi master just by giving him good skills (with push as specialization for unarmed combat for example, tai chi sword in blades and so on), and for the culture a knowledge skill "tai chi" .
1 Martial Art means (to me) training until the point it becomes art in a martial (= violent, military or something like that) application
This meaning seems especially important since a lot of "martial art" branches - kung fu wuchu, budo in japan, old version of yoga means the opposite of "martial" art.
Budo or Wuchu could be translated as "the brave who stop the violence without using it" when "martial" comes from Mars, god of the war (his behavior being quite violent)
2 Martial arts (as they are generally called) eventually teach (for a lot of them) that using a weapon is close to using no weapon.
3 There is a lot of "martial arts" that are in fact a complete training in a wide area of fighting (grapple, hit, push, using most of the part of the body)
With that I would state :
(3) a global method should not be allowed as a specialization (!)
(2) the real skill of fighting isn't so fragmented as written in sr rules (unarmed, club, blades), therefore the concept of martial arts is not applicable in the sr4 rules,
(1) but any good skill should be linked to a particular style (any martial skill at a high rank means a particular (or even a few) technic is used anyway
So in the end you could simulate a tai shi master just by giving him good skills (with push as specialization for unarmed combat for example, tai chi sword in blades and so on), and for the culture a knowledge skill "tai chi" .
On consideration, I think the best fix for unarmed combat is to make the specializations
-- Offensive (like tae kwan do)
-- Defensive (like aikido)
-- subdual (like judo)
Pistol specialization in SA is still pretty much a gimmee. Then again, in SR3 everybody in the world had Pistols 6 at creation.
-- Offensive (like tae kwan do)
-- Defensive (like aikido)
-- subdual (like judo)
Pistol specialization in SA is still pretty much a gimmee. Then again, in SR3 everybody in the world had Pistols 6 at creation.
| QUOTE (ef31415) |
| Pistol specialization in SA is still pretty much a gimmee. Then again, in SR3 everybody in the world had Pistols 6 at creation. |
Not remotely true, and even if it were it would not be a justification.
~J
| QUOTE (ef31415) |
| On consideration, I think the best fix for unarmed combat is to make the specializations -- Offensive (like tae kwan do) -- Defensive (like aikido) -- subdual (like judo) |
I would add
-- knock down (in many arts)
-- interception (not very useful - but makes sense)
-- by part of the body: fist - leg - head etc ...
-- by condition: on the ground, running, charge, with multiple opponent, multiple strike ...
I think a lot of specialization are possible, since it's balanced.
Anyway the more munchkin one will probably stay the same than in sr3 : fist (used with shock hand or bone lacing) - almost always useful
I would comment on Modesittīs post if I didnīt know that would cause Bull to close down the thread.
I found it very amusing actually. ( it is a bit of a shame I perceive bad intentions in that good story).
could be a nightmare / Virtual reality game scenario
could be a nightmare / Virtual reality game scenario
Could be cool. Caricatures of the characters run around in a parody of the typical shadowrun, trying to defeat the unbeatable gamemaster once and for all.
| QUOTE |
| Silat uses cyber implant weaponry in 2070 |
...what?
Sorry, is that correct? If it is, would the writer who came up with that please post up the materials he/she/it based that decision on? As a per silat myself (silat tokku and seni silat haqq), it strikes me as out of character, but I am aware that there are a great many schools of silat and there may be others that differ (saying you study "silat" is like saying you study "kung fu", meaningless without further qualification).
| QUOTE (DrJest) | ||
...what? Sorry, is that correct? If it is, would the writer who came up with that please post up the materials he/she/it based that decision on? As a per silat myself (silat tokku and seni silat haqq), it strikes me as out of character, but I am aware that there are a great many schools of silat and there may be others that differ (saying you study "silat" is like saying you study "kung fu", meaningless without further qualification). |
The SR3 is 'pentjak-silat' and you can buy it's maneuvers for cyber-implant combat or edged weapons once you've learned them for the unarmed martial art itself.
Additionally you get +1 die when calling a shot, and -3 dice trying to use subduing combat (that is, inflicting no real damage but subduing your opponent)
| QUOTE (mintcar) |
| I would comment on Modesittīs post if I didnīt know that would cause Bull to close down the thread. |
Or if I didn't collapse in laughter for the entire first half of it. Poor taste all the way, but if taken out of context ... oh yeah ... that brought a smile to this 9/11 bday boy.
I rule that specialties in martial arts only apply when you're performing specific martial arts maneuvers. Since there are no specific maneuvers yet published, I'm not worried about it.
One of my players is converting a Carromeleg-user. I'll allow that as a specialization as long as the character has plenty of space for jumping around like a dancing monkey. Seemed okay, since it won't just provide an across-the-board bonus.
| QUOTE (Modesitt @ Sep 10 2005, 04:43 AM) |
| If we can just get some modifiers to reduce their perception tests, we're all but guaranteed to reduce their pool to a Longshot test. |
I think you mean if you can get modifiers to reduce YOUR perception test, right?
| QUOTE |
| I know he's better than Jesus because he gave me this book called 'Diagnosis' that told me about how I need to become Clear |
You mean 'Dianetics'. Don't worry, preclear. When you have gotten all of your engrams out, your memory will improve immensely, just like mine! If your memory is bad, it's just because your mother tried to abort you before you were born.*
Cute post, though.
*I am currently half way through reading Dianetics. Yes, my comments are based upon said reading.
I actually did a solo shadowrun 4ED session last night:
My runner:
Body/Agi/Str/Rea = 5.
Initiative = 9.
IP = 3
Unarmed 4 (Kung-Fu +2).
Armor 6/6 (jumpsuit)
(Wired Ref = 2, Mus. Aug 2, Mus. Toner 2)
Fighting unarmed against:
(4) Threat level 1 gangers. two unarmed, two with clubs.
Body/Agi/Rea/Str = 3.
Init = 5
IP = 1
Skills: Clubs 2, Unarmed Combat 2
Leather jackets (2/2)
===
My runner used his 3 edge to get extra initiative passes (ip) 2 times in two different combat turns. The last edge was used re-rolling failures on an attack roll, which sucked but was not a glitch.
My runner took out all 4 gangers in 9 seconds (3 combat turns). That was with me giving the gangers +3 dice pool both offense and defense for "friends in melee", which went down as he dispatched them. Also reducing their dice as they took damage.
My runner took no damage, and the gangers all ended up with physical overflow, one with 8 physical overflow (he had only 1 stun box left and he got hit with 9 stun damage). The other gangers had 5, 4, and 2 physical. All had full stun meters and were unconscious.
So I guess the moral of the story.. dont waste 100s of nuyen on Tranq patches... Knock them out with a few right-hooks.
My runner:
Body/Agi/Str/Rea = 5.
Initiative = 9.
IP = 3
Unarmed 4 (Kung-Fu +2).
Armor 6/6 (jumpsuit)
(Wired Ref = 2, Mus. Aug 2, Mus. Toner 2)
Fighting unarmed against:
(4) Threat level 1 gangers. two unarmed, two with clubs.
Body/Agi/Rea/Str = 3.
Init = 5
IP = 1
Skills: Clubs 2, Unarmed Combat 2
Leather jackets (2/2)
===
My runner used his 3 edge to get extra initiative passes (ip) 2 times in two different combat turns. The last edge was used re-rolling failures on an attack roll, which sucked but was not a glitch.
My runner took out all 4 gangers in 9 seconds (3 combat turns). That was with me giving the gangers +3 dice pool both offense and defense for "friends in melee", which went down as he dispatched them. Also reducing their dice as they took damage.
My runner took no damage, and the gangers all ended up with physical overflow, one with 8 physical overflow (he had only 1 stun box left and he got hit with 9 stun damage). The other gangers had 5, 4, and 2 physical. All had full stun meters and were unconscious.
So I guess the moral of the story.. dont waste 100s of nuyen on Tranq patches... Knock them out with a few right-hooks.
<mode sarcastic on>
| QUOTE (Mightyflapjack) |
| Unarmed 4 (Kung-Fu +2). |
kung fu includes strikes, push and everything. I guess your specialization works in all rolls ? (specialization = everything)
| QUOTE (Mightyflapjack) |
| Fighting unarmed against: (4) Threat level 1 gangers. two unarmed, two with clubs. (...) My runner used his 3 edge to get extra initiative passes (ip) 2 times in two different combat turns. |
WHAT ? You used 3 edge point for those poor little ganger ? Are you sure 1 edge could have been enough just to avoid them ?
| QUOTE (Mightyflapjack) |
| My runner took no damage, and the gangers all ended up with physical overflow, one with 8 physical overflow (he had only 1 stun box left and he got hit with 9 stun damage). The other gangers had 5, 4, and 2 physical. All had full stun meters and were unconscious. |
Is it a very complicated way to say you killed them after making everyone KO ?
You really count the overflow when you splash more than once a head on a hard ground ???
<mode sarcastic off>
*** EDIT: reading, not just for school anymore ***
Dude, reread the quoted section. A point of edge gives one extra initiative pass once.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Sep 12 2005, 11:49 AM) |
| Dude, reread the quoted section. A point of edge gives one extra initiative pass once. ~J |
Ah, i did misread that.
My bad, i should just stay completely out of threads i'm having a hard time stomaching.
| QUOTE (nezumi) | ||||
I think you mean if you can get modifiers to reduce YOUR perception test, right?
You mean 'Dianetics'. Don't worry, preclear. When you have gotten all of your engrams out, your memory will improve immensely, just like mine! If your memory is bad, it's just because your mother tried to abort you before you were born.* Cute post, though. *I am currently half way through reading Dianetics. Yes, my comments are based upon said reading. |
Why am I now picturing Tom Cruise as a Twisted Magician Adept performing a ritual sacrifice?
| QUOTE |
| 2) Pistols has a specialization of 'Semi-Automatics'. And what does everybody use 90% of the time? |
Um...the firearms group skill, which can't be specialized?
(now, once it's close to being capped during play, I could see someone breaking the skills apart for the specializations)
So, yes, people can be munchkiny if they want...and that separates this system from the pristine SR3 how exactly? (aside from the caps which make 4th somewhat LESS absurd at times)
Hrm... judging from the example of the 1.5x-Cap of Skills, Specializations may fall under that cap, too.
I think of specializations as a way for each character to define themselves a bit more and offer a little more variety from one to the other (rather than everyone using the same gun). With the unfortunate side effect of yet-again enlarging the dice pool.
Well, several archetypes (bounty hunter, combat mage, enforcer, face, gunslinger adept, hacker, , smuggler, ganger, samurai, shaman, technomancer) have very low skills (lower than 4) and still a specialisation in it ... I donīt now if it would make really sense to apply this rule to specialisation as well. If it applies, the maker of the archetypes has an interesting view about using BPs.
IMHO, the 1.5x-rules just apply for the reflex recorder. Almost everything else increases the "dice pool" or is for a "test".
SYL
IMHO, the 1.5x-rules just apply for the reflex recorder. Almost everything else increases the "dice pool" or is for a "test".
SYL
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| Hrm... judging from the example of the 1.5x-Cap of Skills, Specializations may fall under that cap, too. |
No, I don't think so. The cap mentions specifically "adept powers, implants, or magic". I assume the cap doesn't apply to all other sources.
What I'm wondering: does specialization increase the skill? For instance, if I have
Pistols 6 (semi-auto +2) does this make my skill with a predator 8? So I could toss a 4-level adept pool into the mix, getting even more munchkiny goodness?
It says 'abilities', too, which is why I'm wondering... and specializations explicitly only provide bonus dice to a skill.
| QUOTE (apple) |
| donīt now if it would make really sense to apply this rule to specialisation as well. |
It would certainly solve some beef about the specializations.
In fact, they are referred and noted the same way as those boni, too.
| QUOTE (apple) |
| If it applies, the maker of the archetypes has an interesting view about using BPs. |
Judging from some Errata requests, they have.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| It says 'abilities', too, which is why I'm wondering... and specializations explicitly only provide bonus dice to a skill. |
Really?
| QUOTE ("SR4") |
Adept powers, implants or magic may provide bonus dice to a skill, creating a modified skill rating, |
| QUOTE ("SR4") |
A specialization grants the character 2 extra dice on tests using that skill when the particular specialty applies (see Specializations, p. 109). |
IMHO it still doesnīt apply.
btw:
| QUOTE ("SR4") |
The reflex recorder adds a +1 dice pool bonus to a specific skill or skill group |
Just forget, what I have said above about reflex recorders. Perhaps it would be better to use this rule just for the cap of 9.
And problems with specialization? 2 extra dices for very few karma/BP. So what? Many things in SR3 and in SR4 are "munchkin". Look at the old and new smartlink, cybereyes, data/chipjack, skinlink, GMC-Bulldog (even some of the old specializations like sorcery(spellcasting)) and countless other things. PCs could have it, NPCs could have it, some or many will take it. Especially when it comes to PCs, 2 dices will be part of a much larger dice pool. And I donīt believe, that 2 additional dices are enough to break a system.
SYL
| QUOTE (apple) |
| Really? |
| QUOTE (SR4 p. 109) |
| The unmodified skill rating assigned at character creation or purchased during game play is considered to be the character’s base skill rating. Some spells, abilities and implants may provide bonus dice to a skill, creating a modified skill rating, but this does not change the base skill rating. These extra dice are listed in parentheses aft er the base skill, as in Spellcasting 4 (+2). A modified skill cannot exceed the base skill rating x1.5 (making 9 the maximum possible rating, or 10 with the Aptitude Quality). |
Really.
| QUOTE (apple) |
| And problems with specialization? 2 extra dices for very few karma/BP. |
And given the other interpretation, they would also repesent a loophole to the definition of the system of caps, too... double plus ungood.
One more reason to kill the cap-rules.
SYL
SYL
| QUOTE (apple) |
| Many things in SR3 and in SR4 are "munchkin".[ ] GMC-Bulldog |
Oh, I do so hope you're talking about the new Bulldog
~J
Out of curiosity, how is it munchkin to use a rule as written that every other PC or NPC can use, and should?
I don't see what the problem is with specializing. I am specialized in my job, and you can bet I am better at my specialization than the general skill.
How many people here are better at using the calculator they have had for 3 years than the one they just picked up with a slightly different button placement? Then you have calculators (specialization: Casio fx-300W), or whatever you are using.
It is part of the game, and it happens in real life, too. Time to move on.
I don't see what the problem is with specializing. I am specialized in my job, and you can bet I am better at my specialization than the general skill.
How many people here are better at using the calculator they have had for 3 years than the one they just picked up with a slightly different button placement? Then you have calculators (specialization: Casio fx-300W), or whatever you are using.
It is part of the game, and it happens in real life, too. Time to move on.
If you'll reread the thread, the "munchkin" issue at hand is Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts), which reasonably applies to every use of unarmed combat. To a lesser extent Pistols (Semiautomatics), which applies to nearly all pistols and certainly the most commonly-used ones.
~J
~J
Or in other words, a specialization of Calculators(Casio fx-300W) isn't Munchki, but a specialization of Calculators(Math) is.
Hi,
Just thought I'd jump in with a couple of points :-
From what I remember from SR2/SR3, you could have Firearms, Firearms (Revolvers) specialisation and Firearms (Favourite Revolver) - getting better bonus' the more specialised you became and less capable with anything outside your specialisation.
Specialisations are great - just make sure the specialisation isn't always usable, to make them appreciate it.
As for Martial Arts and specialisation, doesn't Cyberpunk 2020 has quite a good system for Martial Arts - namely, that you have a selection of moves [punch, kick, block, strike, sweep, etc] with modifiers, combining them to produce various Martial Arts ??
Just my 2 pennies worth
Just thought I'd jump in with a couple of points :-
From what I remember from SR2/SR3, you could have Firearms, Firearms (Revolvers) specialisation and Firearms (Favourite Revolver) - getting better bonus' the more specialised you became and less capable with anything outside your specialisation.
Specialisations are great - just make sure the specialisation isn't always usable, to make them appreciate it.
As for Martial Arts and specialisation, doesn't Cyberpunk 2020 has quite a good system for Martial Arts - namely, that you have a selection of moves [punch, kick, block, strike, sweep, etc] with modifiers, combining them to produce various Martial Arts ??
Just my 2 pennies worth
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