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Daishi440
Just curious now the initial shock wave has passed what people who have read it, or played it think.

Xenith
It needs work. As is I liked the rule system for SR3 better. However I enjoy the concepts in SR4 more, so I will keep playing.... but I'll be looking to set up house rules that improve the quality of play. smile.gif

Initial dislikes: Low skill cap, lack of explaination of several skills and rule references (instruction for example), Specialization giving +2 dice instead of just +1, Low thresholds, that you use Agility for bloody everything

Initial Likes: Technomancer, More broadened skills at character creation, Reaction opposed combat, Initiative system, varyed starting magic/resonnance attribute, Edge rules, Background, Wireless world, and a number of other items that would make this list needlessly long
Dawnshadow
Likes: Spellcasting without force
Dislikes: No damage levels
Hates: Conjuring, skill caps, combat lacking counterhits, creation....

Result: SR3 all the way.
Daishi440
I must say my biggest problems are the lack of die pools. Especially the combat pool.

I loved in SR the way you could use your combat pool to change the style of the fight very much. It was always a decision as to how much to invest in each action, you always had to think about the future.

Now it seems more like D&D. You just have an attack bonus and a defence value, and there is nothing you can do to change those during a fight. It becomes a slogging match.

I have a whole load of other gripes too.
Low start characters
Stretched and poor fiction.
using the word fuck.
glitches not being thought through properly
Attributes better than skills.
Skill caps.
Silly start Adepts.
...

Things that are good
Rationalising magic.
Making decking take a sensible amount of time.
Bringing all the rules into line with each other.

But I don't see why these things couldn't have been done without breaking all the bits that already worked.
Jrayjoker
Having just read the book and not playtested it yet, I voted as middle of the road as I could.
hobgoblin
*hands Daishi440 a note: edge?*
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Xenith @ Sep 11 2005, 12:18 PM)
It needs work. As is I liked the rule system for SR3 better. However I enjoy the concepts in SR4 more, so I will keep playing.... but I'll be looking to set up house rules that improve the quality of play. smile.gif

Wouldn't it be easier to retrofit the concepts to SR3 than to fix the rules system to SR4?

*Hands hobgoblin a note: no.*

~J
fastdos
QUOTE (Daishi440)
I must say my biggest problems are the lack of die pools. Especially the combat pool.

I loved in SR the way you could use your combat pool to change the style of the fight very much. It was always a decision as to how much to invest in each action, you always had to think about the future.

Now it seems more like D&D. You just have an attack bonus and a defence value, and there is nothing you can do to change those during a fight. It becomes a slogging match.

I have a whole load of other gripes too.
Low start characters
Stretched and poor fiction.
using the word fuck.
glitches not being thought through properly
Attributes better than skills.
Skill caps.
Silly start Adepts.
...

Things that are good
Rationalising magic.
Making decking take a sensible amount of time.
Bringing all the rules into line with each other.

But I don't see why these things couldn't have been done without breaking all the bits that already worked.

I think the combat system is leaps and bounds beyond the SR3 system, specifically in the area of speed and efficiency. Instead of having these choices about assigning pools you're left to focus on the actual aspects of combat such as small unit tactics, locating cover, and so on. Vehicle combat is especially easy from the GM's POV. No longer do I have to slog through google earth looking for maps of every little street corner...

hand to hand combat comes down to dice rolls. While this is a drawback it is not enough to upset me.

I'm grateful for low starting characters. It gives the campaign a place to go that isn't Supermanland two weeks later. It's a much longer growth curve.

Fiction: It was good in spots. I get the point of using a short fictional entry to give a IC feel to what you're trying to explain. Did it work across the board? Nope. Some of the fiction left me flat. Good idea though.

Overall, I was impressed with the fluidity of the game mechanics. It made my game go alot faster.
Grinder
QUOTE (fastdos)
I'm grateful for low starting characters. It gives the campaign a place to go that isn't Supermanland two weeks later. It's a much longer growth curve.

You could get low-power chars even back in SR3 just by adjusting the starting BPs and maybe cap skills, attributes, availabillity and starting money.

No big difference to SR4 for me here.
hobgoblin
but to get the official BP rules you had to get the shadowrun companion. the only character generation system available in SR3's main book was the priority system...
Grinder
That's right. I'm using that system for so long that i tend to forget that fact...
Rae
After my initial reaction of SKILL CAPS!?! and my second aghast attempt at creating an elf technomancer and not coming out of chargen all leet and stuff, and then actually looking through the thing--I like it.

In fact, I like it a lot. So much for first reactions being right, eh?

Mind you, there are still a few things I chafe about(beginning decker vs beginning technomancer) but all in all, this system is growing on me.
mintcar
As this poll is not about initial reactions (mine is: great!), Im waiting until I actually played it.
snowRaven
I haven't really had the opportunity to do much playing yet, but from reading and re-reading and re-re-reading I must say I like alot of things about the system - and some things I love.

On the surface, the rules seem alot more streamlined and intuitive than SR3. I think they've managed to finally integrate all aspects of the Sixth World into very similar, easy-to-learn rules. I really like the combat system, the wound system, and almost all of the skill system, as well as the system with qualities. I love technomancers - finally we have otaku that are actually playable in a regular runner team, though I'm iffy on them not having a datajack/commlink at least to initially 'awaken'. I like that the magic system seems to incorporate both more differences and less differences between the traditions.

However, under the surface there are alot of potential problems: low skill caps, cheap and superior attributes, near-invincible spirits, unbalancing ammo-types, odd curve for glitches...

I have a feeling I'll be using alot of house-rules with SR4, and many of their suggested alternate rules.
hobgoblin
about those technomancers. with all the data traffic going thru the air im not surprised if the initial awakening can be a bit like suddenly seeing a pink dino dancing down the street in a spam zone and wondering if one is about to go nuts silly.gif
Dogsoup
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
about those technomancers. with all the data traffic going thru the air im not surprised if the initial awakening can be a bit like suddenly seeing a pink dino dancing down the street in a spam zone and wondering if one is about to go nuts silly.gif

Iinteresting; Adds much more to the atmosphere and possibilities of roleplaying if the change might be traumatical. Sort of like goblinization really, "what am I?".

The AR concept and the day-to-day matrix interaction is HUGE and to me revolutions Shadowrun in ways I probably haven't even grasped yet. It's going to be hard to purge the dusty mental luggage from SR3 in that respect.

My only distinguished dislike is some of the art, so far.... and me being slightly vary of there being so many magical skills but I've read everything very shallow so far, so it might be nothing.
sapphire_wyvern
Of course, the chances are that any Technomancer would have actually used the Matrix extensively in a conventional AR fashion before their "Awakening".

So the pink dinos dancing down the street wouldn't be so much a problem as the moment where you go... "what the frag... I'm not even wearing my AR glasses?"
Phoniex
I like the new game system. But i also like how shadowrun is semi-realistic in the way it explains how things work. The new extended test rules do that marviously. But i still have concerns about the matrix, Character creation, healing, edge,and dice caps. The rules for these are, well they need a little bit of help to me. (tweaks mainly)

Otherwise my group and I are enjoying SR4 so far smile.gif

snowRaven
QUOTE (sapphire_wyvern)
Of course, the chances are that any Technomancer would have actually used the Matrix extensively in a conventional AR fashion before their "Awakening".

So the pink dinos dancing down the street wouldn't be so much a problem as the moment where you go... "what the frag... I'm not even wearing my AR glasses?"

Well...not necessarily.

So far, the only stated 'cause' of becoming a technomancer is from having been affected when the Matrix crashed - this was before AR, and there is a small in-character chapter in SF that discusses one of these technomancers after her awakening in Stockholm...

Of course, this isn't stated explicitly in SR4 - leading to freakish things like non-cybered technomancers who just 'awakened'.

God, I hope they hurry up with the first source books...
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