CGL Speculation #9, Please review ToS before posting Options

[Method]

CGL Speculation #1
CGL Speculation #2
CGL Speculation #3
CGL Speculation #4
CGL Speculation #5
CGL Speculation #6
CGL Speculation #7
CGL Speculation #8

See also the Terms of Service. (h/t to RunnerPaul)

Recent big event: Catalyst Game Labs License Extension Imminent

[RunnerPaul]

(h/t to RunnerPaul)

No hat tip required, seeing as I stole the idea in the first place from how you yourself had started #7.

[Method]

Hmmm... so I did. Seems like ages ago.

Well if nothing else I cut and pasted your text, so there you go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dwight]

From they way it reads, especially the quote from TOPPS, it sounds like they're keeping you guys on a short leash and looking over your shoulders to make sure you behave.

Bah, compared to the leash that Herb and Jason have me on, CGL/IMR is on a space elevator.

Pics or it didn't happen.

[Method]

So the business side of CGL was a mess before all this. Now PSI is going to ensure that books get to paying customers and presumably there are mechanisms in place to make sure money gets back to TOPPS to pay the license. I'm curious to know what mechanisms have been put in place to ensure freelancers get paid?

I'm sure more details will come to light in the next few days, but maybe Jason has heard something about this?

[augmentin]

:::Pause, deep breath, sigh:::

Ambivalent feelings. Glad this is over. Not sure if I want to continue with Shadowrun. It's the only RPG I've ever played consistently. I don't like the idea of wrong deeds rewarded. I do like the idea of redemption and rehabilitation, if there is any sort of contrition at all on the part of the offenders. Right now I don't see it. JMH has been a brick (in the British sense [that's good]). LLC, RNB, et. al.? From what I can tell, not so much.

I don't like street level noir except to the extend that it allows runners (us) to be involved in the metaplot and have a significant effect on the world. I have a job I slog through for 50-60 hrs a week. I don't want my PCs to do the same thing, but criminally. I want them to matter.

Rules wise, I love SR4. Sure there's a few areas that could use a little work, but on the whole it's the best edition we've ever had. If the people that aren't responsible for it aren't around anymore, that makes me sad. Then again, none of the writers of SR2 were around for SR4 and it still managed to be an improvement (mechanics-wise, sorry guys, no offense, but my heart's with the SR2 fiction).

:::another slower sigh:::

I just don't know. Jason says that he's not changing shadowrun, just adding noir. Ancient History and some others say he doesn't understand the setting. Rather than continue to debate and speculate on things we have no control over and are frankly already decided, I'd really like this thread to focus on two things:

• Why should I continue to purchase Shadowrun products?
• Why should I stop buying Shadowrun products?

• What are the ethical pros/cons?
• What are the game mechanics pros/cons?
• What are the fluff/fiction pros/cons?

• What are you going to do? Why?

Thank for your input. Even the snarky ones.

EDIT: Also, I'm sad because I figured it would be a lot easier for the freelancer family to mend in a new home. Oh well. Such is life. JMH, AH: I for one would love it if you two kissed and made up. Since I doubt there's a snowball's chance in hell AH would be the first, it could go something like this:

JMH: I'm sorry for kicking you out of the forums. I value functional conflict. It strengthens ideas like iron sharpens iron. Only, it hurt my feelings when you told my friends I'm was a liar. I consider myself a man of integrity and it's deeply offensive to my sense of self to hear you say otherwise. Please don't do that anymore.

AH: I forgive you, and ... I'm sorry. I should have said that to your face or not at all. I'm sorry for telling the world you're a terrible developer and a bad person. I didn't mean it. I place a high value on the quality of work I produce. It's part of who I am and I don't make apologies for being a perfectionist. I felt like you were taking something I love and devaluing it. I felt like you weren't listening to me. It made me feel less valuable as a person. It hurt my feelings and I lashed out at you. Then these guys on these forums encouraged me and I got stuck in a self-reinforcing feedback loop. The worse I treated you the more encouragement I got. It made me feel good. I never felt good around you.

JMH: I forgive you, and ...I'm sorry about that. I just wanted to make a good impression with the freelancers and I felt like you were in my way. But listen, you are great at what you do. Come back. Just promise not to undermine me in front of the freelancers or fans anymore. I'm new to being a developer. I want to hear your suggestions. Just bring them straight to me. If you do that, we can have a great working relationship.

AH: That sounds really great. I'd like that.

:::And the two live happily ever after and Shadowrun is better for it:::

Wishful thinking? Sure. But we're talking about a world where man meets magic and machine.

This post has been edited by augmentin: Jun 15 2010, 03:54 AM

[martian_bob]

Ambivalent feelings. Glad this is over.

Well, it's not really over. The ink isn't dry on the extension. It's not clear how long the extension is for - until next Thursday, or through GenCon, or another three years, until the heat death of the universe? And there's still the chapter 7 stuff. I figure there's still a good deal of speculation to go around.

[Shinobi Killfist]

:::Pause, deep breath, sigh:::

Ambivalent feelings. Glad this is over. Not sure if I want to continue with Shadowrun. It's the only RPG I've ever played consistently. I don't like the idea of wrong deeds rewarded. I do like the idea of redemption and rehabilitation, if there is any sort of contrition at all on the part of the offenders. Right now I don't see it. JMH has been a brick (in the British sense [that's good]). LLC, RNB, et. al.? From what I can tell, not so much. I don't like street level noir except to the extend that it allows runners (us) to be involved in the metaplot and have a significant effect on the world. I have a job I slog through for 50-60 hrs a week. I don't want my PCs to do the same thing, but criminally. I want them to matter. Rules wise, I love SR4. Sure there's a few areas that could use a little work, but on the whole it's the best edition we've ever had. If the people that aren't responsible for it aren't around anymore, that makes me sad. Then again, none of the writers of SR2 were around for SR4 and it still managed to be an improvement (mechanics-wise, sorry guys, no offense, but my heart's with the SR2 fiction).

:::another slower sigh:::

I just don't know. Jason says that he's not changing shadowrun, just adding noir. Ancient History and some others say he doesn't understand the setting. Rather than continue to debate and speculate on things we have no control over and are frankly already decided, I'd really like this thread to focus on two things:

What I find funny is the people saying Jason does not understand SR are the people who wrote for SR4 and whether you like it or not SR4 was a fairly large departure from what SR was in the feel of the setting. So did they understand SR when they made there changes? How is adding noir any different from the scale of changes they did. I'd say noir is closer to traditional SR than the SR4 take on the world, but whatever.

I happen to think 4E is the worst rules and setting feel so far but everyone is different and if the people responsible for it are gone I have a bit of hope for the game now.

[Darkeus]

Eh, all I can do is wait and see. I like fourth edition a lot so I guess I just need to see what direction they decide to go. If it isn't what I think Shadowrun should be then I will just stick with what I got and move forward with my own Shadowrun campaigns and my own metaplot.

It is still a waiting game for me.

[Ancient History]

I just don't know. Jason says that he's not changing shadowrun, just adding noir. Ancient History and some others say he doesn't understand the setting. Rather than continue to debate and speculate on things we have no control over and are frankly already decided, I'd really like this thread to focus on two things:

Why should I continue to purchase Shadowrun products?

If you like what you see, if you enjoy it enough that you feel you want to own it, then you should continue to buy SR products.

Why should I stop buying Shadowrun products?

If you don't like the material being produced, or if it isn't useful to you, then you should not.

What are the ethical pros/cons?

You get what you pay for. If you buy a bad product, you're rewarding the people that write and produce that product. If you buy a good product, same same.

In the grand scheme of things, yes, continuing to buy products from CGL is rewarding people like Randall Bills and Loren Coleman - because these are the people that directly profit when CGL profits, and when you buy their products they profit. However, it is not your job or social responsibility to punish them. Your purpose as a consumer is to reward good actions by buying shit and bad actions by not buying shit. Your vote is the almighty dollar, and how you spend it is entirely up to you - and don't let anyone tell you different.

What are the game mechanics pros/cons?

I'm gonna speak just from experience here, but Jason doesn't know the rules, and doesn't have a lot of perspective on them that I can see. We never really got around to talking about rules design philosophy, but I know he was never involved in any of the planning or discussions about the rules that came out, good or bad. I could go farther on that particular topic, but let's be honest: Jason probably won't be writing any rules. He wasn't when I left, anyway. Other people will write the rules, and that could be a good thing or a bad thing. Obviously, all Shadowrun mechanics aren't winners. I've made my fair share of mistakes (cough, hack, Runner's Companion, please forgive me), so I've got limited room to talk here - except, well, I tried. You have no idea how I tried. I honestly don't think the FAQ would be posted if I hadn't threatened Jason I would post it myself if he didn't.

Sort of drifted off-topic there, let me recap: there's no way to tell whether it would be good or bad. Probably some of both in any event.

What are the fluff/fiction pros/cons?

Much of what I said above applies. Leaving aside my opinion on Jason's writing, we haven't really had an example of a book he's solely produced or an entire book by people that haven't left. People like Brandie Tahlvin, Ken' Horner, David A. Hill Jr., they're decent writers. Do they know Shadowrun? Some more than others. Does Jason know enough about Shadowrun to successfully edit their work? Well, he didn't do it in Corp Guide. It could get better. That was a shaky product, lot of last-minute work.

What are you going to do? Why?

I'm gonna wait. I'm going to finish a few things I've started, and I'm going to see if IMR implodes or not. I hope it does. I hope Jason goes and finds a great job that never involves Shadowrun. I hope to work on Shadowrun again. Honestly though? If CGL keeps the game, if Jason Hardy stays on the line, I'm done with the game. Finis. I'll probably sell my books and stare at my empty shelves and feel very empty for long time, and that will be it.

[augmentin]

Thank you for the thorough and thoughtful post, AH.

[JM Hardy]

So the business side of CGL was a mess before all this. Now PSI is going to ensure that books get to paying customers and presumably there are mechanisms in place to make sure money gets back to TOPPS to pay the license. I'm curious to know what mechanisms have been put in place to ensure freelancers get paid?

I'm sure more details will come to light in the next few days, but maybe Jason has heard something about this?

The entire contracting system is being revamped. The freelancer audit is underway, and that will ensure that CGL's records are accurate. Check-writing systems have already been revamped, to ensure that money goes where it's supposed to go. We also have new calculations to make sure we're planning properly on project expenses and income.

I don't know all the details of the ongoing revamps. We have someone well versed in accounting and related tasks doing a lot of work to put things in order, so I'm mostly leaving her to her stuff, since she knows what she is doing better than I do.

Jason H.

[Ancient History]

The entire contracting system is being revamped. The freelancer audit is underway, and that will ensure that CGL's records are accurate.

Well, it might ensure that CGL has records. The form sent to me, it was tracking checks, not the contracts they were paying. It's a start.

Check-writing systems have already been revamped, to ensure that money goes where it's supposed to go. We also have new calculations to make sure we're planning properly on project expenses and income.

There's a funny story I could tell you about Digital Grimoire here, but maybe another time.

I don't know all the details of the ongoing revamps. We have someone well versed in accounting and related tasks doing a lot of work to put things in order, so I'm mostly leaving her to her stuff, since she knows what she is doing better than I do.

Jason H.

This is technically completely accurate while still managing to be disingenuous. The SR line developer has zero say in the accounting and money matters. Your influence on the matter is minimal. Saying you're staying out of Amy's way is like a turtle saying he's stay out of the eagle's way while she's flying. Is it so hard not to intimate you have any influence over this stuff at all?

[JM Hardy]

Well, it might ensure that CGL has records. The form sent to me, it was tracking checks, not the contracts they were paying. It's a start.


There's a funny story I could tell you about Digital Grimoire here, but maybe another time.


This is technically completely accurate while still managing to be disingenuous. The SR line developer has zero say in the accounting and money matters. Your influence on the matter is minimal. Saying you're staying out of Amy's way is like a turtle saying he's stay out of the eagle's way while she's flying. Is it so hard not to intimate you have any influence over this stuff at all?

Not hard at all. I didn't say I had any influence over her; what I was saying was that if I kept asking for details of all the revamps, that would be getting in her way. Which I don't want to do.

Jason H.

[Derek]

...I'm done with the game. Finis. I'll probably sell my books and stare at my empty shelves and feel very empty for long time, and that will be it.

As a player of SR since the beginning, even with the terrible rules that were SR1, I can honestly say that the above quote bums me out. AH, I wish you could find a way to let bygones be bygones and get back to writing SR, even if it is with a company that you despise.

Either way, I hope SR continues to live a long life, as I, for one, thoroughly enjoy the game, and have done so through it all.

Jason, I hope you take good care of long loved game.

[General Pax]

I'm gonna speak just from experience here, but Jason doesn't know the rules

Unlike the people responsable for the faqs right??? O wait...

I hope to work on Shadowrun again.

Should have thought of that before showing your tru colors as a backstabbing conniving person that no professional and no company would ever want in their employ. Or at least none that I can think of would want someone who will share confidentil info with anyone so eager to burn their bridges and badmouth people not even responsable for the financil issues at the company. Unprofressional and petty people get what they deserve. Which is why you got what you deserve.

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

How about you stick with your goodbye and leave or are you not even capable of back that sentimint either??? Good riddence anyway. Maybe the fanbase can stop having to deal with people like you now and get back to having fun with the game.

[Darkeus]

Oh my, time for popcorn already? I don't know if I have enough fireproofing here to get in the middle of this one.

Man, so much hate over this debacle. All I can do is sigh....

Shadowrun is bigger than any of this crap.

[Kid Chameleon]

Pics or it didn't happen.

Not only did one of my quips cause Jason to threaten me, SR Developer Emeritus Tom Dowd threatened me.

[Method]

Pax: Please review the ToS. Personal attacks are not allowed. Your tone and statements are inflammatory. This post will be reviewed by the moderators.

[nemafow]

/me pulls up a stool and watches.

Hang on, I've had a stool here all along.

/me continues to sit and watch.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Not only did one of my quips cause Jason to threaten me, SR Developer Emeritus Tom Dowd threatened me.

I don't know you were talking about trying to squeeze a cyber penis into something, maybe it is you who were threatening. I mean that sounds painful.

[Kid Chameleon]

Rather than continue to debate and speculate on things we have no control over and are frankly already decided, I'd really like this thread to focus on two things:

• Why should I continue to purchase Shadowrun products?
• Why should I stop buying Shadowrun products?

You could start a thread just on that. Seems kind of silly to have this thread focus on you.

[Kid Chameleon]

I don't know you were talking about trying to squeeze a cyber penis into something, maybe it is you who were threatening. I mean that sounds painful.

Or fun!

Or both!

[Ancient History]

Unlike the people responsable for the faqs right??? O wait...

The FAQ before last was done by Rob Boyle. It took a couple years later and serious effort to put out the next one, and I know because I did a significant bit of the heavy lifting; the others were mostly freelancers that had actually written the original rules. So yes, unlike the people responsible for the FAQ.

Should have thought of that before showing your tru colors as a backstabbing conniving person that no professional and no company would ever want in their employ. Or at least none that I can think of would want someone who will share confidentil info with anyone so eager to burn their bridges and badmouth people not even responsable for the financil issues at the company. Unprofressional and petty people get what they deserve. Which is why you got what you deserve.

I haven't backstabbed anyone, or revealed anything that was confidential. I have burnt my bridges and bad-mouthed people, because there are bridges that need to be burned and people that need to be bad-mouthed and because I'm a terrible and honest person.

[lehesu]

I hope CGL will take this opportunity to really devote the resources necessary to make Shadowrun every bit the lean, mean, polished game that Battletech has been. I don't expect this to happen over night, but I hope a sustained long-term strategy is applied to the line, as opposed to the constant regime changes of the past.