 Ranged Combat, the SR3R way |
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 May 27 2005, 12:40 AM
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#26
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Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670  |
depends on the AR, Shadow. i think 8-10M for a 5.56 or 5.45 round is a'ight, but 7.62 should probably be 9-11S. the easiest way to reflect that is to not class 7.62 rifles as "ARs" in SR terms--call them battle/sport rifles.
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May 27 2005, 12:42 AM
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#27
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Because I spent a lot of time working on a project that got very little attention and drew very little interest. And here you are, bringing up a few of the exact same issues— and you know why? Because you hate me.
Auuuaugh. The 9x19mm round is not heavy. If such classifications existed in real life, it would be a medium round. In Shadowrun, it is very clearly what Light Pistols were intended to represent. Because Mike Mulvihill can't tie his shoes, this was not bound to work out well. There is no such thing as a Beretta 98fs. You are probably thinking of the Beretta 92.
Doesn't matter. A single shot from an assault rifle— which is how they are often used when fighting at distance or when ammo needs to be conserved— is still a fair bit nastier than a single pistol shot.
That's, uh— that's generous. |
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May 27 2005, 12:48 AM
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#28
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
That could work. I still think they should all be S but you could scatter them from 8S to 11S. Itt woudl sure make the game a helluva a lot more deadlier and would make the characters go for cover instead of standing in the open doing their Ethan Hunt imitation. |
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May 27 2005, 12:48 AM
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#29
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Assault Rifles are deadly. Very deadly, I think that should be represented is all. |
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May 27 2005, 12:50 AM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 215 Joined: 12-April 05 From: New York City Member No.: 7,326 |
Excessive deadliness in what is ultimately a game system is not always a Good Thing™.
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May 27 2005, 12:53 AM
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#31
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
I would settle for a realistic amount of Deadliness. When you are walking down the street and punk pulls the pistol, you are afraid.
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May 27 2005, 12:56 AM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 21-December 04 Member No.: 6,893 |
Then what the heck is this? http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galle...s/2000/2073.htm I do not know much about guns; however, it seems kind of odd to me that an Uzi deals 6M damage with the same round that deals 6L in a smaller pistol. |
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May 27 2005, 12:57 AM
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#33
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
And with a sensibly designed hitloc system, I'd be pretty worried about M damage in even incompetent hands, rather than SR's current system of magically armored faces. Jacking up damage levels does bad things to the system and creates more problems than it fixes. Serious damage is exceedingly generous for anything in 5.56x45mm.
Also, I think I should point out to you that SR may be a very poorly designed game as a cohesive whole, but what does hold together paints a fairly distinct picture that looks a lot more like Ethan Hunt than Black Hawk Down. Action movie silliness was very often intended. |
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May 27 2005, 01:00 AM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 21-December 04 Member No.: 6,893 |
I personally think that the old system of simply rolling seperate shots was much better; however, it took an absurdly long time to actually get anything done. It also makes hitting people much easier, in a manner similar to real life.
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May 27 2005, 01:00 AM
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#35
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I stand corrected. Forgot about that one. It is not at all a common weapon, however. And, no, it makes no sense that SMGs do more damage than light pistols. It also makes no sense that machine pistols, SMGs, and pistols all use different ammo, despite the fact that the defining characteristic of an SMG is that it fires pistol ammunition (let's ignore Colt's inability to figure this out). Explanation? Mike Mulvihill has trouble tying his shoes. |
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May 27 2005, 01:13 AM
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#36
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
It might be a Beretta 98FS, though that's hard to tell, because the only real difference between a 92FS and a 98FS should be the caliber (9x19mm vs. 9x21mm IMI). The 98-series is out of production, was only made in small numbers and only for the European market.
And realistically it should by no means be guaranteed that two average hits with an assault rifle firing FMJ drops the average human unconscious. However, rifle terminal ballistics isn't exactly a straight forward matter, and I can't claim to know with any accuracy the exact mechanics of a human being hit by high velocity projectiles. Still, articles like this support most ARs doing Moderate damage with FMJ rounds. |
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May 27 2005, 01:37 AM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 149 Joined: 21-March 05 From: UCAS (if its tuesday) Member No.: 7,200 |
So lets make a set of terminal balistics rules. There really is no way that you can make a rule system to accuratly describe what happens to a bullet after impact. a 123g 6.5x55 FMJ does very little damage because it does not loose very much energy on a small target. however that same bullet hitting a troll would so a lot of damage as it was reflected around his internal organs by his bone lacing. people have been "dead" and still manage to fight for some time (generaly chem fueled but not always)
I don't think that holdouts are too broken, to do damage you pretty much would have to go for a head shot anyway, and that puts you to 4-6M or up to 9M if you use HP ammo, plus staging and that gets pretty deadly. I do think there should be a greater range of power (lots of derringers are available in the .45 ACP to .50 AE range) so whats so special about lazer weapons that they need a new skill? just roll some dice and burn ammo, you want realistic combat try paintball, (those guys argue all the time about its realism, and they only have to deal in reality) enough of my smart-assituse for a while |
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May 27 2005, 01:55 AM
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#38
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
It would be much more accurate to say that it does little damage because it does not make a very big hole in the target. You can dump a hell of a lot of kinetic energy into a human body without killing it.
No. Bullets don't bounce around. Coming at metallic bone lacing (or indeed just thick bone) at an angle, a bullet might deflect, which only means it's now headed in a slightly different direction; it doesn't necessarily mean there's any more damage done to the target, it may just as well mean there's less damage done. In all but the rare few weird cases (which usually involve very low-power firearms), the deflections are of very small angles, some degrees in another direction -- at a greater angle, the bullet will simply crush through the bone or is stopped by it. |
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May 27 2005, 02:50 AM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 149 Joined: 21-March 05 From: UCAS (if its tuesday) Member No.: 7,200 |
The first part was more that the bullet does not impart much energy on the body as it does not slow down much (mostly due to shape). the second part was partly sarcasm /smartassedness/ mocking CSI which seems to like the bouncing bullet
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May 27 2005, 03:05 AM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 21-December 04 Member No.: 6,893 |
With the growing prevalence of OpenRPG, perhaps it would make more sense to use the old-fashioned "seperate shots" method of resolving combat. After all, if resolving attacks and damage only requires the push of a button, why not use six more clicks? It also covers hitting seperate targets (you often lose shots) and greatly improves the balance between burstfire and full-auto.
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May 27 2005, 03:10 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 149 Joined: 21-March 05 From: UCAS (if its tuesday) Member No.: 7,200 |
It would definitly make the "short burst" more powerful
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May 27 2005, 03:13 AM
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#42
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
The problem being of course not everyone does use OpenRPG, whatever that is, and some people even like to roll dice by hand once in a while.
Anyway, another thing to consider about pistols doing low-power (5-6) damage is that in the 2060s there are trolls, and have been for some 40 years. Gunmakers will likely have responded to that and tried to pack larger bullets into pistols, in order to make them actually meaningful against such behemouths. |
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May 27 2005, 03:40 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 21-December 04 Member No.: 6,893 |
I was merely stating that it might make more sense for openRPG players. Also, I am a digital junkie, and often carry about me a laptop, palmpilot, and graphing calculator. Also, if I'm not mistaken, there are heavy pistols with a concealibility of 6. Even considering the absurd toughness of a troll, a few shots from one of these will likely incapacitate them. |
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May 27 2005, 03:50 AM
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#44
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
The potential an object has to damage and its ability to penetrate armor have pretty close to fuck-all to do with each other. Wound profiles generated by defensive handgun and military rifle munitions are often, for all practical intents and purposes, similar in wounding capacity, the major difference being the range at which the target can reliably be engaged and that wound dealt out. But the assault rifle bullet, with its much higher velocity, smaller frontal area, pointed shape, and usually construction devised to penetrate things harder than humans, will do much better at penetrating body armor. Ergo, Heavy Pistols are not that insane (my own fix is to make both 9M). The way in which armor penetration is handled in Shadowrun is what is truly insane. As for Light Pistol DCs, I'm sure most of you are aware that I'm in favor of bumping that up a bit. I went about it differently, calling them "Medium Pistols" and putting them in the 6M-8M range. I did that because there are still some light-caliber pistols that are too large to be considered "hold-outs" that are marketed for defense use these days (P22, for example). Shotguns... The spread rules need to be overhauled obviously, as well as the rules for "flechette" ammunition (+1 DC? Fuck no). Skill groups: We've had that argument and I still doubt we're going to agree on how it should be done. I say Pistols, Machine Pistols, SMG, Shotgun, Assault Rifle, Rifle, Sniper Rifle/AMR/Assault Cannon, Grenade Launcher, Heavy Weapons (Machine Guns, Automatic Grenade Launchers, etc...). With appropriate defaulting. All for reasons I've explained elsewhere. |
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May 27 2005, 03:52 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237 |
Hold out pistols: 4M. Short barrel length leads to drastically reduced muzzle velocity for these bad boys. The short sight radius and awkardly small grip contributes to shorter range. Nevertheless, they ought to do a base moderate wound b/c anyone can stage. The power's at 4 because armor is still highly effective against them. Note that on this logic, I'd consider .38 special fired from a 2" barrel to be basically a hold out. It's on the minimum end for a defensive handgun these days anyhow. 4L can be relegated to those holdouts that fire .22 short or .25 ACP.
Light pistols: 6M. Same calibres as holdout pistols (in the 9mm/.38 range), but a full length barrel gets you more muzzle velocity and thus penetration. The presence of a full sized grip and proper sight radius gives you the improved range you seek. 6L can be relegated to those light pistols that fire .380 auto or .32 ACP. Heavy pistols: 7M. Slight advantage over the lights in terms of armor penetration. The true benefit of the heavy pistol is its range. I'd consider these bad boys to be based on current high powered cartridges such as .45 ACP, 10mm Auto, .357 magnum, etc. The increased power doesn't represent the ability of the bullet to penetrate modern body armor reliably, rather it represents blunt trauma transmitted through the armor by the increased mass of the bullet. Assault Rifles: 8M. Its got a combination of penetration and wounding. Note that this is for 3/4 power rounds as fired by modern assault rifles: 7.62x39mm, 5.56mm, etc. Full power rifle rounds don't have an edge in penetration, but they have a higher base damage level ("S") because their increased size lends itself to greater up front tissue/bone damage. Thus, an "assault rifle" modeled on the M-14, G-3, or FN-FAL would probably do 7S damage. Other weapons would all do similar damage. As for skills: pistols, assault weapons (covering the assault rifles and SMGs), rifles and shotguns. That's four skills instead of five. Alternatively, fold assault rifles into rifles. A note on body armor in shadowrun. Given the high concealability value of most SR body armor, it's clear that they mean this stuff to look A LOT less conspicuous than current policy/military body armor. Thus, it makes sense that even a weak handgun may have a chance against it. For everyday wear, you need comfort and concealability. The armor may lose reliability in that trade off, it would certainly lose the ability to handle blunt trauma well. Also, it would be subject to a lot of wear and tear. Kevlar, for example, is quite susceptible to the elements. It loses tensile strength when exposed to water and can degrade under UV rays. Modern body armor systems solve this by putting a waterproof layer around the actual kevlar. SR armorers may be using different materials and techniques. As for shotguns: spread should not exceed 1 meter. Most sporting shotguns are designed to put their "pattern" into one square yard at the limit of their range. Besides that, 12 gauge buckshot shells contain about 9 pellets, each about .33 calibre. They can't provide coverage like a miniature claymore. I say leave the gigantic shot cones and adjustable choke behind. Instead, grant a flat target number modifier. At short range the modifier is nice for hitting a fast and small target At longer ranges, the modifier helps offset the chance of missing but not as much because now half your pattern has gone wide. Shotgun pellets can lose damage over range categories, instead of obsessively tracking ranges. -2 power per range category ought to do (thus T-250 goes 10S/8S/6S/4S). Ineffectiveness against body armor at range is the real problem with a shotgun, unarmored targets are still screwed to a considerable distance. Given the generally reduced power levels I advocate, it's probably a good idea to do something about armor layering. |
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May 28 2005, 06:51 AM
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#46
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
The AK 47 and the MP5 are incredibly different weapons, dude. Also, 9mm isn't really "heavy". If anything, it's on the flimsy side. The S&W 500 magnum revolver no doubt packs quite a whallop. But how well does it perform against armor compared to, say, a NATO 7.62 round? I'm no expert, but I'd imagine that the metal jacketed rifle cartridge probably performs better than the gigantic pistol round. Also, I'm pretty sure that assault rifles, while they are certainly designed to operate in automatic mode, are not necessarily "supposed" to be fired that way. At long ranges, single shots are better. My impression is that assault rifles are actually designed to be fired in single shot or automatic modes, depending on the nature of the situation. Lastly, IRL, it dosen't take much armor to stop a pistol round. Pistol rounds can be stopped handily by rather light armor, even .357 magnum rounds. |
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May 28 2005, 07:54 AM
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#47
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I am all for rifles and assault rifles (at the least, maybe even shotguns too) being folded into a single skill.
One of my favorite firearms-skill breakdowns had pistols (including some SMGs) in one skill, rifles (including assault rifles, shotguns, and some other SMGs) in another skill, and "full auto" as a skill all it's own (if you plink on semi-auto with an M-16, you use rifles. If you spray and pray, you use full auto -- ditto with uzis, MP5s). So in a way it was just "shoulder weapons," "handguns," and "blazing merrily away." |
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May 28 2005, 07:54 AM
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#48
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Incidentally, I do want to mention that realism isn't my primary concern. Any improvements that can be made in the course of changing things to affect balance are all well and good, but I'm leaning heavily towards not wanting to change anything that isn't unbalanced or unnecessarily complex just to make it more realistic, though I do admit that the idea of Trolls being all but immune to handguns is very attractive to me.
And I'm about to fall asleep on the keyboard, so more later. ~J |
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May 28 2005, 03:19 PM
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#49
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Change "handguns" to "most handguns" and we'll be in agreement. If we do go this route, of having pistols all do Moderate damage at (relatively) low Power, the market would immediately recognize that trolls are essentially immune to normal defensive handguns and work to provide something relatively discreet that could. Maybe they would be small, a 2-3 shot gun that operated through break-action or something--but it would do damage at a high enough Power that it would make even a troll stop and think a moment. Remember the market's had 40 years worth of troll rapists and muggers to get used to the idea that people may need protection against something the size of a small car; the market would adapt to that, not just throw up its hands and say "You're on your own." Also I agree with Critias on weapon skills: shortening the list would be a good idea, and that seems like the simplest way to do it. Maybe we shouldn't go putzing with the skill list at all, though: this is a revision, not a rewrite. |
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May 28 2005, 03:38 PM
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#50
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Dude, paintball isn't realistic. The range on your typical rental marker is so borked that the sights are there just as some kind of running gag. |
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