I was wondering your thoughts on layering vision enhancements. A lot of people mention that cybereyes are less useful now that most of the stuff can be used through contact lenses and whatnot, but one advantage cyberwear does have is the ability to shove all of that equipment into a single package.

That made me wonder. At chargen you can't stuff all of those enhancements into a single package, but would it be possible to layer them over multiple pieces of equipment? For example, combining contact lenses with goggles?

Contact Lenses w/ Smartlink, Flare Compensation, Image Link (R12, 600)
Goggles w/ Thermographic, Vision Enhancement (R3), Vision Magnification (R12, 550)

Assuming your character has low-light, that means you get everything but Ultrasound for 1150 and no essence loss. The wireless connectivity would mean everything gets to talk to each other. You couldn't have thermographic on the contact lenses because it would only see the inside of the goggles, but otherwise it seems logical.

What do you guys think? Significantly cheaper than cybereyes, that's for sure. Would the same thing work for an earbud and headphone combination to get R3 Audio Enhancement, R3 Select Sound Filter, and a Spatial Recognizer for 1060?

What do you guys think?

I dislike the way they wrote it.

The cost of the non-cyber should be greater than the cyber cost.
The max rating of non-cyber should be 1, or limited slots, or both.

Keep in mind that a talented Face character could get even more packed in to contacts/earbuds after the game starts.

You explain it as written, and as my group plays it, but I dislike it.

what? why? cybereyes/ears are smaller than anything besides maybe contacts, you have to go under the knife to fix/alter/upgrade them, and they have biological concerns that other sensory media don't. why would they be cheaper and roomier than non-cyber stuff?

well, yeah, contacts are kinda wacky. personally, i'd have made it so that contacts are just display-capable, with no built-in vision enhancers. then, you get a little headband thingy that takes in all kinds of sensory data, processes the data for display, and feeds it into the contacts.

I'm not sure about the headphone/earbud combo. At the very least the filtering would have to be on the earbuds because if the sound improvement wasn't on the headphones i'd probably rule that the earbud would simply hear a very accurate depiction of the crappy sound coming from the headphones. *shrug*

*There is no moon tonight, for the clouds mask the reflective brightness of the moon... You see a flash of heat as your thermal-enhanced vision picks up a large creature approaching. Before you know it, you are pounced by the large paranimal, and you glitch your dodge roll...*

"AHHH!! My contact lens fell out!"

*But if you think that's bad... try critically glitching it with cybereyes...*

"ACH!! Meine eyesen!"

I'd have less of a problem if they had to be left on and not 'smart operated' on and off on a whim. that way the cyber would have an advantage, but there no such limitation requiring them to be left on or left off. :-/

Are contacts considered to be wireless-linked or skinlinked?

Yeah, exactly. I'd skinlink everything I could.

I'm just not sure if the skinlink technology is supposed to work on contacts, since they're touching your eyeballs and only hit flesh intermittently when you blink.

Kinda moot for me, since I'd be using shades for my external HUD anyways. Sunglasses at night are standard 'runner gear, along with trenchcoats, leather jackets, and the occasional ponytail.

No skinlinking contacts - that's just insane...

I even have a hard time with wireless connections to something as small and specific as a contact lense, but...nanotech does wonderful things, apparently.

I'd argue the other way - goggles should be cheaper because:

1. Larger production quantities because anyone can use them without surgery
2. Larger components, facilitating general production and assembly

The inherent drawback to goggles over cybereyes? Goggles are obvious and cybereyes are less likely to become dislodged. Mind you, there are no rules to address such - ergo, they never become dislodged (sorry absolutist interpretation )

I mentioned some of the problems with the monocle/goggle/contact scenario under "Gear Errata" - contact lenses are "obviously superior" because they can fit all the same options that goggles and monocles can without any limitation or modification to cost and available options.

The background material is a little vague as to whether or not contacts are hardwired with skinlinks or automatically wireless which would be the only real limitation in canon versus goggle/monocle/contact.

I think it's safe to say this particular section of the gear catalog, while interesting, needs a little work.

-Siege

I think it needs to be cleverly done, personally.

If you just plug Thermo into contacts, then put on your Ultrasound, lowlight, smartlink shades on over that, if you switch to Thermo, then you're just going to see your own heat radiating off the shades (imo.)
Similarly, if your Magnification and Smartlink systems aren't on the same piece of gear, be ready for a few stray shots, as the Smartlink mis-aligns with the Magnification.

So what's the best way to layer them?

It's really depressing that cybereyes are now so seemingly useless.

Add houserules for losing contacts and dislodging goggles.

-Siege

Or combine the usually quite high Availability for contacts with the detail that they are neither as rugged as goggles, nor as carefree as cybereyes...

Which still require more rules than are provided in the 4E book.

I still question how contacts can support the same degree of electronics that are normally crammed into cybereyes, goggles and monocles.

-Siege

Der be making dem 'lectrons smaller every year. Seriously though you only need one image layer, it's the sensors that you need to add. I think the sensors for the contacts should have cost more, but they way they did it is simpler. *shrug*

BTW because contact lenses start out with a higher Avail that does make it much tougher to find contact lenses with lots of goodies packed on, so in some ways the extras are limited.

Not limited enough, IMHO.

And yes, nanotechnology, but damn - by the same reasoning, cybereyes should be able to hold a lot more if the whizkids can fit the same, if not more stuff into a contact lens.

Sheesh, at this rate, just graft a contact lens onto a cybereye and be done with it - and you bypass the whole wireless issue.

-Siege

Actually, there is no (AFAIK) cap on the amount of crap you can cram into contacts according to the rules. Cybereyes have capacity limits. Given that fact, even if you have to skinlink, DNI, or manually adjust them somehow they are far superior to cybereyes in SR4. You'd be a sucker to get cybereyes in SR4.

Which is, it seems, kind of the idea. All of that cyber that was indicative of SR1-3? Old news. SR4's the wave of the future, catch it or drown!

That's my point - if nanotechnology is held to be the reason why so much widgets and gidgets can be crammed into contact lenses, why do cybereyes have such small and arbitrary limits?

Particularly considering the relative size differences between the cybereye and the contact lens, it makes no sense.

-Siege

Do cybereyes, being bought with essense, still allow mages to target with them? If so there is one small advantage. Also the 12 Avail limit for starting characters is hit quite quickly with contacts vs. many cybereyes options. But outside of that, the contacts are primarily the way to go.

On the other hand the cyberware sniffer is FAR inferior to having an external sensor. Especially if you put the external in a secure RFID tag. The Signal range 0 is nothing, you're only going to be sniffing the air beside you.

Olfactory boosters give a big bonus on perception, though.

The main advantage of cyber systems is that they are always there - and being paid with essence (important as soon magic comes into play).
They offer the option to record and play back, too, and have some unique enhancements...

The sensors can provide most, if not arguably all of that if you link them in with your commlink and then feed that into your head.

Depending on the purpose, not even most, in fact.

Keep in mind those nasty subscription limits, too.

what i wonder is if you can have those eye covers (the cyberware with no essence cost) act as a vision enhancing device... i certainly can't see why they wouldn't (heck, if they can squeeze it into a pair of contact lenses, i should hope something strong enough to give +2 armor is gonna be big enough to fit that in somewhere), so that kinda just degrades the value of actual cybereyes even further.

although, at least at this point you've got cyberware doing it. i just find it pretty depressing that the cybereyes presumably won't even hold as much as the eye covers ought to be able to hold.

No one else has brought this up but there is one great advantage to cybereyes over goggles, shades, and contacts. You can cast spells through cybereyes. You can cast spells through contacts or shades. One may be able to fit optical magnification into goggles but there isn't really a point since there are no distince modifiers for spellcasting.

This poduces the very odd situation where magicians are the only ones who would get any use out of a particular bit of cyber.

Yeah, but this is the same book with a BTL and stim-addicted combat mage as a sample character.

i don't think subscription lists are all that big of a deal. sure, you can only have so many... but then, the stuff you are subscribed to can be subscribed to other stuff... and that can be subscribed to other stuff... and so on...

i think that's mainly why they just said "unlimited storage space". with the amount of stuff you could have linked, it would be way too much of a nuisance to keep track of, and would have effectively the same result, so why bother with it?

but anyways, doesn't distance eventually give perception modifiers? which would limit your ability to use magic on stuff? and therefore the magnification actually has potential uses?

and also, couldn't you just have clear (or one way, if you prefer) goggles with an image link to project an overlay? and couldn't you just wirelessly (or skin) link all your optical stuff to the image link device to get that added to the overlay?

i still have to say, i don't consider cybereyes to be worth it. not for mages, not for anyone, unless you get captured maybe. even then, i would personally be a lot more worried about, say, weapons, armor, and stuff that will help you get away (like ropes, or maglock passkeys). i suppose, if nothing else, you could just store sensitive information there and put some crazy IC on it or something... maybe backup copies of agents/IC/programs that you own. but then, you can do that on any cyberware.

Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this is nuts.

The bit about the protective covers being able to hold more stuff than the cybereye itself was spot on. Also, consider this. There's nothing preventing you from wearing contact lenses and goggles over cybereyes.

Hell, the problem with having your stuff knocked off is pretty easily fixed. Just make the goggles part of a helmet. Heck, you could stuff the helmet with all kinds of RFID sensors.

Uber Chargen Sensor Suite

Contacts (50)
Vision Enhancement 3 (300)
Flare Compensation (50)
Image Link (25)

Goggles (50) Integrated into Helmet
Thermographic (100)
Smartlink (500)
Vision Magnification (100)

Earbuds (10)
Select Sound Filter 3 (600)

Headphones (50) Integrated into Helmet
Audio Enhancement 3 (300)
Spatial Recognizer (100)

Helmet (100)

Micro Sensors (Studded Around Helmet)
Atmosphere Sensor 3 (75)
Camera (100)
Cyberware Scanner 6 (450)
Directional Microphone (50)
Geiger Counter (50)
Laser Range Finder (100)
MAD Scanner 3 (450)
Microphone (50)
Motion Sensor (50)
Olfactory Sensor 6 (3000)
Radio Scanner 6 (150)

Skinlink 15 Items (750)

Cost: 7610
Nuking Sammie's Self Respect: Priceless

The skinlink isn't even required; you could just as easily connect most of that stuff via fiberoptic. Also, did I miss them or do the sensor packages themselves have no cost?

Also, you could pretty easily purchase some kind of minicomputer with a high system rating. In game terms, buy a Metalink (100) and upgrade it to a Rating 5 system (3000). Or, purchase two of them, link one to the other, and have your entire system connected to your main commlink by a single connection.

In other words, the whole thing would cost you 13810, and the only thing you would be missing would be ultrasonic vision, sound dampening, and low-light vision. In my opinion ultrasonic vision could easily be inserted as another micro sensor (given that ultrasound sensor is a headware item), so if the GM lets you that would be 1000. Possibly more if they require you to use the cyberware version, which has a capacity 2 and costs 6000. Then again, you wouldn't be able to get them onto contacts if that were the only option. Make your character an Ork (it's all the rage these days), and you have every kind of possible sensor for 14810.

As for sound dampening... well I guess cyber has an advantage after all.

who says the eye covers are protecting cybereyes?

as i read it, they take up no capacity, and no essence. they explicitly protect normal eyes as well as any cyber eyes you might have.

so why bother getting cybereyes? why not just get yourself eye covers with unlimited capacity and go nuts? even if you're gonna be using cyberware i wouldn't bother with the eyes... i mean really, it's a no-brainer:

hmm... let's see...

cybereyes: 500-1500 for basic. 0.2-0.5 essence for basic. limited capacity.

OR

eye covers. 100 flat rate. no essence cost. provides +2 armor to any attack on your eyes. unlimited capacity. also a lower availability (except for rating 1 eyes)

so now we're looking at even awakened/technomancers getting the full benefits of cyber eyes... with none of the penalties. well, i suppose you would have to deal with availability, which would be easier for the cybereyes. but in the end, that's not much of a drawback compared to the essence, the money (not just the basics, but the 'ware costs more than putting it into non-cyber stuff), the fact that you might get a bomb stuck in your head (always something to consider), and probably something else i'm missing.

The awakened wouldn't get full benefits from tricked-out eyecovers. They still wouldn't be able to use any of the vision enhancments to create Line of Sight.

if you can get vision enhancements on a contact lense, you can fit one into an eye cover. to say otherwise would just be silly. just because it isn't explicitly spelled out in the rules doesn't mean it can't happen.

i mean, if we rely only on the RAW, i'm pretty sure the Slivergun is the best heavy pistol, for example, because it doesn't ever come out and say that it can only handle flechette rounds to my knowledge. so, i could try and rules lawyer that into having a slivergun with ex-ex rounds, or i can just acknowledge that the designers are not infallible beings who have not come up with an explicit rule to cover every single situation. (in fact, that's not the only problem i can see with the slivergun, but that's beside the point).

so if it isn't in the books, it doesn't exist? that's just silly.

that's like saying that only a handful of different cars exist in 2070, because only a few are in the book. the book is not intended, nor will it ever be intended, no matter how many other books they add in, to cover every single situation possible. if they were to try, they would fail, and would take up hundreds upon hundreds of pages filling it in with minor variations, and all kind of useless material, and no one would want to play it.

it doesn't mean they don't exist. it means there are no rules for them. if you want them, you'll need to make up rules for them--house rules. if you want a car besides the ones in the book, you'll have to houserule those too.

that said, mods for eye covers are, as described in this thread, hardly 'useless'. if they existed (and i agree that they should), they would (should) have rules.

Given , CyberEyes Rating X 4 = Capacity

I would House Rule as follows:

Lenses Rating(4 Max) X 1 Capacity
Monocle Rating(4 Max) X 2 Capacity
Glasses Rating(4 Max) X 3 Capacity

Goggles Rating(4 Max) X 5 Capacity
Binoculars Rating(4 Max) X 6 Capacity

That's not a bad idea. i severely disklike that contacts as written can hold more than something 20 times the size.

[edit] ermm... this was in response to mfb... i guess i typed too long, and two other posts got in between =P [/edit]

yes, well, IMO they "should" have included stat blocks for banshees, goblins, and dzoo-noo-qua, considering there is nothing keeping elves, dwarves, or trolls from getting HMHVV any more than humans or orks, particularly considering vampires and wendigo both are capable of spreading HMHVV around, and are in the core book.

however, i am also going to recognise that they don't have 10,000 pages to put every last scrap of material possible into a book. and even if they did, they aren't going to think of everything (look in the errata threads, for example).

so yes, they probably should have rules for eye covers with vision enhancement. but it's sillly to say that because they didn't think of rules for it, the rules all of a sudden change.

for example:

we have goggles. they have an availability (0 as i recall). if you want to add low-light vision to them, you add onto their availability (+4, again iirc). if you also want an image link, you add that availability in. (+2? anyways, you get the point). then you add up the costs, just like it says. presto, you now have low light goggles with an image link.

so, my houserule for eye covers: treat them exactly the same as getting anything else to have vision enhancements built in. start with the availability and cost of the eye cover. add in the availability and cost modifiers of the vision enhancements. presto, the only 'houserule' needed is to say that it's allowed, and even that is more common sense than anything.

thing is, only a person with cyber eyes should wear the covers. I don't see those being too comfortable or healthy for someone with meat peepers. Last I checked densiplast didn't make for comfortable vision correction. Cyber-eyes are okay because they aren't easily irritated, flexible bags of clear goop.