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nezumi
So here's the background... I'm running an online game of about half a dozen teenagers. One of them has some background with SR. One of them seems to be a good (if aggressive) player. Most of the rest only post intermittently. I had explained several times they're not Neo, they need to give the cops a good leeway and keep to the shadows.

The GM (myself) made the pay waaay too low ($4k per person, plus expenses), but it was supposed to be a milk run. Break into a rented floor in an office building in an A section of town, grab a box, and get gone. The 'experienced' SR player made a few mistakes, but got out, with two of his buddies in tow. They're safe.

However, the 'aggressive' player rounded up half a dozen guards, drugged and shot them, but left one alive and conscious (who had an internal cyber radio). He missed hints that shooting the guards may be a poor idea. He ignored messages from the experienced character that running would be good. He ignored the decker (PC, then NPC, as the player disappeared) warnings that the cops were surrounding the building. He WAS smart enough to get captured disguised as one of the hostages, rather than go down with guns blazing.

His friend didn't post anything (except, literally "I run to a coffin motel") As such, I assumed he followed along with his buddy, which means he too is up the creek, except doubly so because his crime is not playing at all, rather than playing but overestimating himself.

So these two guys get caught. I figure, well, color me sideways, what do I do with these two characters? The quiet one I don't mind killing off (if you don't care enough to post, well...) So they both get carted away to the hospital, under guard. LS decides to question them. Pretty standard, good cop bad cop, but I figure they're more interested in the employer than the runner, so they're willing to give the PCs a criminal SIN, a tracking device, a fake package, and do a sting on the employer. A big owie to their reputation, plus a criminal SIN, but at least they survive, right? I warn them a few times they're in over their head.

The 'good' player figures this out pretty quick. He accepts the deal, and asks for the cop's cell phone to call some guys. He *KNOWS* it's bugged. But he calls his decker to tell everyone to get ready. I know he's planning on getting them to help him break out, he just hasn't said that quite yet.

The other guy suddenly realizes that if he doesn't start posting, he's going to get dead. So he makes up some dumb, cock and bull story about how a troll with dreads threatened his family into doing it.


So the cops have two dummies sitting in their hospital. One is talking on their tapped phone about getting a jail break. One is clearly lying through his teeth (his story doesn't match up with his buddy's, for one, and his buddy is a much better talker).

And there I am. I submit myself to your lashing. Should I start explaining how to make new characters, or let them out on an 'administrative mix-up'?
Fix-it
kill them, then find a humorous way to show a play-by-play of thier mistakes. hopefully they'll learn the lesson.
Nkari
Kill the moron, and let the rest of the runner team deal with the semi moron after they get shot up and getting hints that its the semi morons fault.. wink.gif
Nikoli
better yet, have the Johnson hire the ones that made it out to clean up the mess the remainder of the team made.
Fortune
If the aggressive player's character was in disguise and pretending to be a hostage, how did Lone Star know he isn't one?
Siege
Do they have any experience with gritty heist games? Or even movies, for that matter?

They may not a proper frame of reference to conceptually understand the idea of "Shadowrun."

For honest-to-Goddess newbs, a gentler introduction to Shadowrun might have been in order before starting something as (relatively) complex as a corp run.

-Siege
nezumi
QUOTE (Nikoli)
better yet, have the Johnson hire the ones that made it out to clean up the mess the remainder of the team made.

Oohh... Good idea.

How does LS know?

1) Their janitor IDs don't check out (later examination show that the database was tampered with
2) No SINs
3) A suspicious amount of gear (no weapons, they were smart enough to throw their guns away before getting caught, but transceivers and the like) and both of those caught were physical adepts. Not your normal janitor.
4) Security guard testimony. Remember, they left one alive and conscious, and they never used any masks. She was using her headware radio to give live, minute by minute reports on them
5) Watcher spirits caught the end of things as they cut cyber out of the dead security guards

I'm sure they could do fingerprints as well, but #4 pretty much seals it in my book (even though the one guy said she was secretly running a drug ring, and that's why SHE killed everyone and tried to blame it on the new guys.)
brohopcp
Say the deal's off because the runners are obviously lying and have Lonestar send them through the legal system. When security officers end up dead, the legal system consists of a sham trial and death row for a month, ending with execution. Even if they turn in their team and Johnson the best they should get would be life in prison.
nezumi
QUOTE (Siege)
Do they have any experience with gritty heist games? Or even movies, for that matter?

I was under the impression that was the case. Heck, when the LS officer got a detail wrong, one player assumed he was actually a fake officer in disguise, and the Johnson set them up as a fall team. One of the players (the one with the SR experience) is actually running another game with them all, but it's post-apocalyptic, kill all the horror/zombie/shedims as they come out of the ground.

You're right though, the only other experience I gave them before this (admitedly, very easy) corporate break-in was Food Fight (wheee!) However, they did deal with the footwork step pretty well.
Siege
Needless comment deleted.

As for the relative seriousness of consequences, kill them. If they got this sloppy while running against a more serious opponent, death would be the least of their worries.

As this point, you're teaching the players, not the characters.

Just be clear with the consequences - like, "your mug has been plastered all over the trid with a 25k reward...is that a spark of recognition in that squatter's eye? Wow, I'd bet that much cred would buy a couple of bikes for that go-gang..."

Understanding why getting caught and being dragged into the light is a bad thing for this career choice.

-Siege
Nikoli
Basically, you should explain to the players, all of them, that such stuff isn't tolerated by the authorities and that you'll continue to play it out as it would happen were they experienced. Then make new characters and start them off slow and get them used to the grit of your Shadowrun.
NightRain
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Basically, you should explain to the players, all of them, that such stuff isn't tolerated by the authorities and that you'll continue to play it out as it would happen were they experienced. Then make new characters and start them off slow and get them used to the grit of your Shadowrun.

That would be my thought too. If you let them out, you haven't convinced them that going up against extreme odds like that is to be avoided, you've taught them that they can live through anything providing they're not stupid enough to get shot.

Personally, I'd have one or both of them "die resisting arrest" and any survivors thrown in gaol. Then, they can create a new character (even give them some karma to bring them up to the other characters if you want). The idea is not to penalise them for being new and making a mistake, but to show them as new players, that doing something dumb will have repercussions
Eldritch
Heh, I started getting worried nyahnyah.gif
fistandantilus4.0
I voted for maim but not kill, but after acutally reading the post, I think I'll change my vote to kill 'em. Otherwise they'll just do it again.
nezumi
I don't think I've ever seen such an evenly matched poll. 40 votes, almost perfectly split. One vote different and it would be 10/10/10/10.

*sigh*

Well, as its shaping up, the REAL player might actually be asking his buddies to help with the sting, which works, but the other guy is getting dumber. I think I might just give him a 'window of opportunity' to escape... directly into the firing arc of a man with an assault rifle. It might be less painful for everyone involved.

(And no, Eldritch, it's not you nyahnyah.gif I'll put up a different poll for 'what should a mysterious monster leave implanted in my decker?')
Sicarius
maybe Lonestar is pressured by the Johnson to let him go.. only to walk right into the sights of the hitters brought in to clean up the mess.
But i don't know how powerful their Johnson was.
hyzmarca
Bail Hearing + 200,000 nuyen bond + yak or mafia loanshark + criminal record flaw + jailhouse gangrape = sufficiently traumatized runners, in my opinion.
nezumi
Their Johnson is a anti-metahuman policlub member out of Reston (or whatever that agragarian part of the city is) who hired them to steal some minor piece of technology that'll be used as a bomb.

Not really a super well-paid sort of guy, and unlikely to care for a keebler who dun got himself locked up.
Mystweaver
Put them up against a character beefed up with 700 karma or so... I can provide mine if ya want... they will all be dead in the initiative phase. sarcastic.gif
Sicarius
Ooh.. I'm thinking Policlub members in County finishing him off in a shower shivving.

cheaper that way.
Critias
QUOTE (Mystweaver)
Put them up against a character beefed up with 700 karma or so... I can provide mine if ya want... they will all be dead in the initiative phase. sarcastic.gif

Ooh, badass. Sometime in the initiative phase, they're all dead! That's totally hardcore! You rule!
Eldritch
QUOTE (nezumi)
(And no, Eldritch, it's not you nyahnyah.gif I'll put up a different poll for 'what should a mysterious monster leave implanted in my decker?')

D'Oh!!!! *smack*
mmu1
If you have the right kind of players , you should just let the dice fall where they may.

That doesn't mean you should make things as hard on them as you possibly could, given the circumstances - people sometimes get lucky breaks, after all, and if it helps the game run smoothly... However, once you decide how to respond to their actions, play things out to the logical outcome.

If your idea of what SR should be like is what they're looking for in a game, they'll learn from the mistakes and adapt.

On the other hand, if you're not on the same page when it comes to what you should expect from the game, taking it easy on them isn't going to help, unless you're willing to do that every time they get into trouble... because you shouldn't expect your players to change. It might happen, but counting on it is a mistake.

Dragonscript
I tend to be very forgiving with noobs if they are willing to learn. But if he killed 6 guards in cold blood for no reason then his character goes to jail and gets executed. He can always create a new one. It is a harsh lesson, but one that must be learned.
Kagetenshi
Yes. That you never stop after only six guards.

~J
Sicarius
The only problem I see from killing them is that they learn to merrily make new characters after having their last character's axed for being stupid. If they don't have any personality or feeling into their characters, killing them isn't a punishment. It's like the fish you get at the fair... its fun while its last, for killing them to be effective, it's gotta be more like drowning their kitten.

Taran
Do you have any idea why they let that one guard live? Butchering the security seems like an all-or-nothing proposition to me.
caramel frappucino
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Yes. That you never stop after only six guards.

~J

You advocate senseless murder in your games?
bclements
Hey, if you're going to start killing them, you might as well finish the job.
hyzmarca
They should get off with a slap on the wrist of the six murders. The property theft, on the other hand, is probably a capital offence.
Siege
QUOTE (caramel frappucino)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Yes. That you never stop after only six guards.

~J

You advocate senseless murder in your games?

Why did they finish executing the guards in "Heat" once the nut started?

Answer:
  • Eliminate any possible witnesses
  • You're going to be just as dead for killing a guard as you are six
  • Killing a prisoner may cow the others - it may also inspire them to resist, as they have nothing left to lose

-Siege
caramel frappucino
You just gave three examples that illustrate why that specific course of action in the movie isn't senseless murder.
toturi
Ah, but killing the guards after you knock them out is senseless murder.
Siege
Depending on what they saw prior to being knocked out.

A stunbolt is a nifty combat spell now, which means it'll likely be used well after the target has seen, heard or otherwise experienced something incriminating.

Complete aside - sim recording unit, skinlink and implanted storage device.

Which means if you don't pull the recording unit, cleanup crews can retrieve a sim-recording of everything the guard saw or heard prior to flatlining.

-Siege
caramel frappucino
QUOTE (toturi)
Ah, but killing the guards after you knock them out is senseless murder.

No, going back to kill the guards after you've pulled the entire job over their heads and the rest of your teammates have already left the scene is senseless murder.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Siege)
Complete aside - sim recording unit, skinlink and implanted storage device.

The same thing can be done in SR3 with an eyecam, ear recorder, and headware memory, it is just more expensive.

Sometimes it is a good idea to brng several empty bowlingball bags to a run, preferably ones that are waterproof.
Siege
With a simrig and skinlink, the storage device doesn't have to be in the head.

Stick that recording device in the chest cavity or along a bone in the body and unless you liquify the corpse and grind up the bones, you won't find the gizmo on the bounce.

-Siege
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (caramel frappucino @ Oct 14 2005, 08:35 PM)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Yes. That you never stop after only six guards.

You advocate senseless murder in your games?

No, though I don't frown on it either. Sensible murder, on the other hand, I'm all for. That said, in this case one of the player's key mistakes was not killing them all quickly.
QUOTE
No, going back to kill the guards after you've pulled the entire job over their heads and the rest of your teammates have already left the scene is senseless murder.

Way to make assumptions. Not if:

You're sending the target a message.

The target is one you may be hitting again soon (eternal vigilance is impossible, and the replacements once any elites leave are likely to be less than thrilled at taking the post of someone who got gutted like a fish).

You have something else to gain from it (body parts, food, personal satisfaction).
QUOTE
With a simrig and skinlink, the storage device doesn't have to be in the head.

Stick that recording device in the chest cavity or along a bone in the body and unless you liquify the corpse and grind up the bones, you won't find the gizmo on the bounce.

Two easy choices: take the body, or carry explosives packs for corpse disposal.

~J
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE
body parts, food

ghoul?

There's also healthy, if time consuming way to clean up after your self and send a message. Have a ghoul on the team. Have him eat the downed gaurds. Give 'em increases reflexes, see if he can eat faster! In down time, take him to pie eating contests (just don't let the other contestants see what's in his pie).
Kagetenshi
Ghouls like blueberries too, you racist frown.gif wink.gif

~J
caramel frappucino
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
You're sending the target a message.

The target is one you may be hitting again soon (eternal vigilance is impossible, and the replacements once any elites leave are likely to be less than thrilled at taking the post of someone who got gutted like a fish).

You have something else to gain from it (body parts, food, personal satisfaction).

~J

The first two you should've already worked out beforehand with the rest of your team, and neither one was mentioned as an objective in the original post. That you say I'm the one making the assumptions is pretty ironic.

The last one isn't even close to being a valid reason.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
No, though I don't frown on it either.

Gotcha. If you don't have any problems with your players acting like idiots, then by all means, don't let anything I say change your mind. smile.gif
Kagetenshi
I missed the implication that this was post-run and assumed that you'd thrown the original example to the wind. That said, the assumption that there's no valid reason for what he did is just that.
QUOTE
Gotcha. If you don't have any problems with your players acting like idiots, then by all means, don't let anything I say change your mind.

Murder for its own sake is not stupid. It can be done stupidly, but it is not innately stupid.
QUOTE
The last one isn't even close to being a valid reason.

Believe that all you want.

~J
caramel frappucino
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I missed the implication that this was post-run and assumed that you'd thrown the original example to the wind. That said, the assumption that there's no valid reason for what he did is just that.

No, it isn't. It's a deduction derived from a set of given facts. It may very well be incorrect, but it's not an assumption.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Murder for its own sake is not stupid. It can be done stupidly, but it is not innately stupid.

Untrue. Murder is innately stupid when a superior alternative to achieve the same end exists and is not taken instead. In this case, if his goal was body parts, food, or personal satisfaction, there are targets whose elimination would inflict less risk upon the job, himself and his team.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Believe that all you want.

Oh, don't worry about me. I will.
Critias
Simple fact: killing some of the guards (and if he didn't have to) could be seen as kinda of stupid.

More important fact: not killing all the guards, once he started, was amazingly stupid.

Once you start on something like that, you finish the job (to eliminate witnesses, if for no other reason).
hyzmarca
QUOTE (caramel frappucino @ Oct 15 2005, 01:05 AM)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Murder for its own sake is not stupid. It can be done stupidly, but it is not innately stupid.

Untrue. Murder is innately stupid when a superior alternative to achieve the same end exists and is not taken instead. In this case, if his goal was body parts, food, or personal satisfaction, there are targets whose elimination would inflict less risk upon the job, himself and his team.

Well, for its own sake is the point. There is no supperior alternative to murder when murder is the goal.

Killing captives can potentially compromise a mission. It can be a waste of time and resources. By the same token, tending to wounded captives can compromise a mission. It can be a waste of time and resources.

In both cases, the runners may have higher moral obligations that take precidence. No one would blame the pacifist Dove shaman for dragging a wounded enemy to safety and applying first aid. For such a character, saving others is both a moral obligation and a totem requirement. Likewise, no one should blame a nihilist Dark King shaman for freeing his enemies from this meaningless life and sending them to paradise.

Of course, characters don't have to be Dove shaman to follow a moral paradigm that says killing is wrong and it is good to save those who are dying. Likewise, a character doesn't have to be a Dark King shaman to follow a moral paradigm that says death is good and murder is an obligation
mfb
QUOTE (caramel frappucino)
Murder is innately stupid when...

a short aside: a quality can't be both innate and conditional. that's what innate means--the quality is inherent in the subject, and not prone to change due to outside factors.
caramel frappucino
I'm speaking of murder in a specific sense, not conceptually. The conditional exists outside of that specific instance.

You're right, though. My choice of words was poor. I blame lack of sleep and not enough coffee. wobble.gif
caramel frappucino
hyzmarca:

QUOTE (hyzmarca)
No one would blame the pacifist Dove shaman for dragging a wounded enemy to safety and applying first aid.

Eh? If I was an archetypical shadowrunner, I wouldn't hesitate to put a round into the Dove shaman's head for jeopardizing the team and the mission with her nutty antics.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (caramel frappucino @ Oct 15 2005, 02:11 AM)
hyzmarca:

QUOTE (hyzmarca)
No one would blame the pacifist Dove shaman for dragging a wounded enemy to safety and applying first aid.

Eh? If I was an archetypical shadowrunner, I wouldn't hesitate to put a round into the Dove shaman's head for jeopardizing the team and the mission with her nutty antics.

But would you blame her (or him)?
mfb
i probably would have barred him/her from the team.
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