While I'm not sure if Fanpro will do this, it is quite possible that the sourceboooks which come out later will raise the bar.
If we call the rules laid out in SR4 "Street Level", later books could offer up rules for "corporate level" or "Prime Runner level" which would change the way we look at hard caps.
Many people complained early on that their starting SR3 character would wipe out platoons of starting SR4 characters, others griped about the inherent shift in power level. Though, if you compare the rules offered up in MJLBB for variable power levels, you may begin to see where I'm going with this.
For a basic system that is easy for new players to join without feeling out-classed and out-gunned, I like the hard cap. It's my hope that modified rules will come out later as they did with SR3. (I'd reference p. 69 of SR4 as a hint that what I suggest may be in future offerings...)
Full Version: Who likes the hard cap set where it is?
Given the setup of SR4, redefinition is very unlikely without an 'errata' of the main book.
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| I'd also like to note that we have no proof that Fastjack isn't an adept, either. |
Right. So, from now on, in order for anyone to be exceptional at something, they have to be an Adept (even if they're made an Adept retroactively, countering the timeline about when Adepts appeared, when Adepts could learn non-physical abilities, etc, etc).
No one thinks there's something wrong with that?
| QUOTE (Critias) | ||
Right. So, from now on, in order for anyone to be exceptional at something, they have to be an Adept (even if they're made an Adept retroactively, countering the timeline about when Adepts appeared, when Adepts could learn non-physical abilities, etc, etc). No one thinks there's something wrong with that? |
I do. Fastjack is -so- a magician. Duh.
Seriously, though, the cap is silly. And they break it with a normal NPC. Just...stupid.
| QUOTE (Gothic Rose) |
| And they break it with a normal NPC. |
Sure, and in SR4.01D, Trolls are never allowed to buy Logic or Willpower.
Get real, C&P-errors make a bad reference.
It's not so much a hard cap that troubles me... it's that you can hit a lot of those hard caps at char-gen. So the only way that some specialists can improve after char-gen is to generalize more. But since the hard caps are so low, you can have characters quickly go from novice to "best of the best" in a new skill. And because Magic is not limited, they have kept the biggest power discrepency from SR3.
if you think you hit the hard cap to soon, lower the build points you start with...
other then that i think that the hard cap makes for a more gritty game in that your sure that you can allways run into someone that can match your skills without things becoming insane down the line.
exerience in real life often shows up as someone that knows a bit about a lot of stuff, like say how to pick locks, how to fix a broken engine and so on. ie, the longer you live the more spread out your skills become.
like say that exerienced cop that knows how to sweet talk his way to some info while that new one basicly is as smooth as a brick trown by a cybered up troll...
other then that i think that the hard cap makes for a more gritty game in that your sure that you can allways run into someone that can match your skills without things becoming insane down the line.
exerience in real life often shows up as someone that knows a bit about a lot of stuff, like say how to pick locks, how to fix a broken engine and so on. ie, the longer you live the more spread out your skills become.
like say that exerienced cop that knows how to sweet talk his way to some info while that new one basicly is as smooth as a brick trown by a cybered up troll...
The problem isn't that starting characters are too powerful (because they're close to the skill cap), the problem is that the skill cap is too low (because real life has no such thing, and because it's an artificial limit purely created for "game balance" reasons that doesn't actually balance the game, and because it's too easy to hit as a starting character).
See the difference?
See the difference?
| QUOTE (Critias @ Nov 3 2005, 06:48 AM) |
| The problem isn't that starting characters are too powerful (because they're close to the skill cap), the problem is that the skill cap is too low (because real life has no such thing, and because it's an artificial limit purely created for "game balance" reasons that doesn't actually balance the game, and because it's too easy to hit as a starting character). See the difference? |
Real Life has no such thing???? Ooookay. You know there is a difference between something existing and being able to say [edit:accurately] that *points* is where it is. Welcome to a game where stuff that isn't codified nice and easy in RL is abstracted and codified nice and easy (well not always easy, and nice being a subjective term
)P.S. WTF are you talking about it being broken with a normal NPC?
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| The problem isn't that starting characters are too powerful (because they're close to the skill cap), the problem is that the skill cap is too low (because real life has no such thing, and because it's an artificial limit purely created for "game balance" reasons that doesn't actually balance the game, and because it's too easy to hit as a starting character). See the difference? |
...
correct me if I get something wrong ...
almost half of the starting shadowrunners start the game with a skill rank at 6, which is indeed described as a "Elite", with just one rank before : "legendary".
There is not much room to improve yourself when you have reach the top of your possibilities, when you are the "best of the best". 6 is described "individual SUPERSTARS amongst ELITE FORCES"
Play super heros game if it doesn't sound cool to you. Or change SR rules to make it more heroic.
"The newest athlet just nuke the world wide record of 100m in just 6s !!!!!!!!! "
- this guy has 18 in running ranks - tell him there is no limits.
Well, sprinting is a bad example. In order to be a world record sprinter, you apparently only need to get about 4 hits per round on your sprinting tests for 3 consecutive rounds. That's not a lot, especially if you are willing to spend edge for three consecutive rounds. In fact, it requires that you just have a Strength of 4 and a Running of 3, even less if you spend Edge.
In three rounds you run 75 meters plus 2 meters for each hit you get on your six consecutive sprint actions. Even normal people can cover 100 meters in 9 seconds, which is the current world record. Trolls with synaptic boosters can make it in less than 6 seconds, which is of course well beyond anything that unaugmented humanity considers possible.
A troll covers 70 meters in two rounds before rolling dice, and with a synaptic booster can make 6 sprinting tests in those two rounds. Assuming a strength of nine and a running of four (decent enough starting values for a troll street sam), our cybertroll is making an extra 52 meters in those 2 rounds. The troll covers 122 meters in six seconds, so presumably the time from gunshot to finishline is about five seconds.
People in SR4 are just crazy crazy fast. Of course, as has been laid out elsewhere, shadowrun characters are pretty flacidly weak at the high end. So that's mostly an example of the athletics rules being weird than it is an indictment of open or closed caps.
---
My problem with the caps is mostly that you can make a starting character that is a better lawyer than Damien Knight. It's not even hard, just be an Elf and an Adept, and you can be totally confident that you could whup him in the courtroom. That's not in keeping with the fluff at all. It's simply too easy to be better than the best of the best as depicted in previous editions. The fact that the unaugmented cap can never catch up to the augmented one means that those who don't have adept powers can never match the output of a starting character. And that's unfortunate.
I would like at the very least the ability to buy up to the augmented cap with gratuitously large amounts of karma.
-Frank
In three rounds you run 75 meters plus 2 meters for each hit you get on your six consecutive sprint actions. Even normal people can cover 100 meters in 9 seconds, which is the current world record. Trolls with synaptic boosters can make it in less than 6 seconds, which is of course well beyond anything that unaugmented humanity considers possible.
A troll covers 70 meters in two rounds before rolling dice, and with a synaptic booster can make 6 sprinting tests in those two rounds. Assuming a strength of nine and a running of four (decent enough starting values for a troll street sam), our cybertroll is making an extra 52 meters in those 2 rounds. The troll covers 122 meters in six seconds, so presumably the time from gunshot to finishline is about five seconds.
People in SR4 are just crazy crazy fast. Of course, as has been laid out elsewhere, shadowrun characters are pretty flacidly weak at the high end. So that's mostly an example of the athletics rules being weird than it is an indictment of open or closed caps.
---
My problem with the caps is mostly that you can make a starting character that is a better lawyer than Damien Knight. It's not even hard, just be an Elf and an Adept, and you can be totally confident that you could whup him in the courtroom. That's not in keeping with the fluff at all. It's simply too easy to be better than the best of the best as depicted in previous editions. The fact that the unaugmented cap can never catch up to the augmented one means that those who don't have adept powers can never match the output of a starting character. And that's unfortunate.
I would like at the very least the ability to buy up to the augmented cap with gratuitously large amounts of karma.
-Frank
I've been considering that. First, It's occured to me that most of the adept powers for social skills and whatnot have only recently been discoverd, around 2064 or something. That leads to two interesting conclusions. The first is taht these people may have been adepts all along. The second is that they did so well in the abcense of such adepts, and that the new generatoin is here to replace them.
"Never write an exemple before you read the rules"
I should know that !
let say that the distance coverd by the running rules don't speak about the starting phase ... And I am kind of right ? no ? please
!
bye
I should know that !
let say that the distance coverd by the running rules don't speak about the starting phase ... And I am kind of right ? no ? please
!bye
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Nov 3 2005, 12:23 PM) |
| I've been considering that. First, It's occured to me that most of the adept powers for social skills and whatnot have only recently been discoverd, around 2064 or something. That leads to two interesting conclusions. The first is taht these people may have been adepts all along. The second is that they did so well in the abcense of such adepts, and that the new generatoin is here to replace them. |
The first option, a pile of people were Adepts all along, is something i've got a bit of a problem with. Primarily due to WTF they were never clued in when their aura was Assensed. Even Damien Knight is likely to have his assensed, by an EXTREMELY vetted mage, for things such as medical treatment. But there is also the thing that someone elsewhere put approximately as "WTF, is this Exalted?"
The second option of these being newly developed powers really hadn't occured to me, but that's got some promise. Afterall Damien Knight has got big bags of money to surround himself with a superstar team. But he's still the one with the big bags of money, so he's the one that is going to be the most public face and can claim the glory. Even though his time has past the name recognition and past exploits are parlayed into an illusion that he's still the best solo talent. Yup, that works for me.
I do think though that having Adepts having enhancements in as many fields as they do that mundanes don't isn't good. For that there is only the hope that the gear supplement can close that gap in a number of them. That, i think, is where the modified Skill cap could really come in useful. So you don't have Adepts always double-dipping in both Powers and any of that new gear intended to close some gaps.
| QUOTE (blakkie @ Nov 3 2005, 11:27 AM) | ||
Real Life has no such thing???? Ooookay. You know there is a difference between something existing and being able to say [edit:accurately] that *points* is where it is. Welcome to a game where stuff that isn't codified nice and easy in RL is abstracted and codified nice and easy (well not always easy, and nice being a subjective term )P.S. WTF are you talking about it being broken with a normal NPC? |
Yes, real life has no such thing (!!!!). Real life hasn't got skill caps, at least not ones as low as Shadowrun does. There are things people can do with guns that would make your head spin (just to pick a fun-to-research-and-watch, off the top of my head, example, that can still be relevent to Shadowrunners).
Look at Bob Munden or Patrick Flanagan, and tell me those guys only have two or three skill points more than Bubba Joe down at the rent-a-lane gun shop (yes, seriously, do a google search on those names, watch a video or two, and then don't feed me any "lol omg they're obviously adepts omg lol!!11" bullshit). Look at what they do, imagine the time and effort and practice that went into getting that good, and tell me their skill is limited to a few pips above a beat cop or casual shooter.
Look at any Olympian, and compare them to the people you see at a high school track and field competition. Look at the things people -- real life people, right now, in the real world -- can do and tell me they have some "skill cap" that kept them from focusing their imaginary karma in one or two abilities.
Attribute caps? Sure. I can buy it. I don't disagree with it for a second. There are limits to the raw basic power, or speed, or endurance of a human body.
Skill caps? Not for a second. Training picks up where the human body leaves off. Focus hones that raw natural ability into something truly fantastic -- something we'd call superhuman, were we not proven otherwise constantly. Real life doesn't come with a "skill cap," other than what reality itself imposes upon us by means of constant distractions from training (stuff like having to pay bills, for the most part, that keeps us from all latching onto whatever innate talent we've got and really maximizing it). If real life had a skill cap, no one, ever, would try to juggle chainsaws.
P.S, I'm not the one talking about it being broken with a normal NPC. Yell at someone else.
Taki - I really have no idea what you're trying to say. You seem to be attempting an argumentantive stance (ie, disagreeing with me), but I really genuinely can't pin down your actual logic/examples well enough to make sense of it. You're just sort of rambling about superhuman abilities and skill level 6 being Herculean, or something -- the problem with your (apparent?) stance is that skill level 6 quite simply isn't all that rare and badass, when one stops to look at the PC's and NPC's of the game world, and/or when one stops to do some math with basic TNs and modifiers and the dice required to do anything right. They shouldn't describe a 6 as being the be-all end-all, when every Joe Schmuck in the world has several skills at 4 and 5 just to, statistically, succeed at every day tasks with any regularity.
EDIT: It's like the old World of Darkness bullshit, where unless you were a millenia old super-potent vampire, you couldn't have any attribute or ability above a 5, period/paragraph. At all. Hands down. End of rule. No one, ever, had anything higher than that -- and yet the statistical difference between what was "average" (a 2) and what was "OMG teh bestest evar, in all of historee!!!!" (a 5) was laughable, once you started to make any actual skill checks with their ridiculous difficulty modifiers. The descriptors for skill levels -- one being low, a higher number being much better -- has to fit the application of those skills, to be even remotely realistic. Shadowrun's skill chart in SR3 was way off with it's descriptors (a 6 was supposed to be super elite top end, but their own generic NPC specops guys often had 8s or 9s, for instance, nevermind bounty hunters or assassins or Company Men or whoever else), and SR4 is just as bad (except now the descriptors MATTER, because they're LIMITS, too). I've got an SR3 character with a specialization, or core skill, of 9-10 in three or four different skills (off the top of my head). It's not an "omg lol auto winzor every time!!!" by any means, and in fact it's more like a "wow, I can actually notice that he's better at that than a starting character, now. Cool."
| QUOTE |
| Real life hasn't got skill caps, at least not ones as low as Shadowrun does. |
Ah, but that's different than not having any at all.
What you are describing is just down to a matter of defining what each point of ability (Attribute + Skill) represents, and if the scale sized at 1 to 7 + 0 or 2 + 1 to 7 = 2 to 16 (higher for metahumans with Attribute bonuses) is enough to represent the full range of natural ability.
Considering that that is insufficient to allow a mundane human to consistently have extraordinary success, it seems pretty obvious that it is indeed insufficient. Unaugmented humans should be able to achieve a dice pool of 20, because that's what you need to buy hits for extraordinary success. Because there really are people who are simply such good chefs/marksmen/orators/goalies/whatever that they get extraordinary success every time unless they are rushed or facing extenuating circumstances.
20 is bare minimum for what norms should be capable of achieving, because the rules tell us that that's the minimum dice pool required to be able to consistently churn out world-class food (which real people really do).
-Frank
20 is bare minimum for what norms should be capable of achieving, because the rules tell us that that's the minimum dice pool required to be able to consistently churn out world-class food (which real people really do).
-Frank
allso, most of the time this is done under very controled conditions.
i would love to see those people do the same thing while being shot at and so on. fear of death can do strange things to ones concentration and ability to perform
i would love to see those people do the same thing while being shot at and so on. fear of death can do strange things to ones concentration and ability to perform
Hmmm. Getting feisty in here.
I'd have to say my objections run fairly parallel to what everyone seems to be saying. Or at least some of you-namely, attribute caps, yes (but higher than they are), and skills caps, no.
When there were no skill caps 'back when', it made for a better game in my mind, because it allowed for a greater array of PCs and NPC skills. You can make the argument that "if you are a really good shadowrunner/athlete/gunman/CEO of Ares, you will have a versatile skill set, not just a few skills at 6/7/whatever". Which is awesome in theory, but as a GM and a player, that doesn't come up much in interaction with the game. Yes, I may have not only a bitchin' Pistols skill AND a whole slew of supporting skills as well, but quite frankly, a lot of other PCs will probably be my equal (yet never my superior-except for adepts.....#$%@!!). I realize one can and should distinguish a character by other criteria, and 'good at guns' does not translate to 'Street Samurai', but those characters who want to be 'good at guns' are going to hit the skill ceiling FAST, and eventually your combat mage, Street Sam, and any other gun-jockey are all going to be exactly the same within a reasonable amount of time. Then there's the NPCs. I may never run a game again-how can I trump my players? Super-Street Samurai? Out of the question, the team would overpower him if he's alone, since his skills....just aren't that much better. Unless I rule every last bastard an adept or a dragon, my super-dramatic Player-Threats are things of the past. I don't want to have to tailor my games so that I cushion my NPCs against an extremely real chance of dying because the Go-Gang boss is just as good a swordsman as Kage the Ninja who's held a blade since the age of two. Kage the Ninja shouldn't have bodyguards at all times, or have to sneak attack every last person he sees. I want an awesome super-cyber-ninja fight on a rooftop dammit, and they've cheapened my thrills by telling me just HOW awesome my super-cyber-ninja can be.
Am I over-reacting a bit? Sure. Should I have written a more coherent post. Probably. But this (for me) is just the tip of the iceberg of issues. I like SR a lot, but this is annoying to me. Sure, make it cost more karma/BP, or what have you, but this to me seems broken. I'll stop ranting now, but I'd like to know if any of that rang true to anyone.
P.S: blakkie: Gothic Rose was asking/complaining about the Talismonger who has a knowledge skill of 8 in the SR4 Contacts section, because of a copy/paste error from the SR3 BBB, or whatever the hell it is.
I'd have to say my objections run fairly parallel to what everyone seems to be saying. Or at least some of you-namely, attribute caps, yes (but higher than they are), and skills caps, no.
When there were no skill caps 'back when', it made for a better game in my mind, because it allowed for a greater array of PCs and NPC skills. You can make the argument that "if you are a really good shadowrunner/athlete/gunman/CEO of Ares, you will have a versatile skill set, not just a few skills at 6/7/whatever". Which is awesome in theory, but as a GM and a player, that doesn't come up much in interaction with the game. Yes, I may have not only a bitchin' Pistols skill AND a whole slew of supporting skills as well, but quite frankly, a lot of other PCs will probably be my equal (yet never my superior-except for adepts.....#$%@!!). I realize one can and should distinguish a character by other criteria, and 'good at guns' does not translate to 'Street Samurai', but those characters who want to be 'good at guns' are going to hit the skill ceiling FAST, and eventually your combat mage, Street Sam, and any other gun-jockey are all going to be exactly the same within a reasonable amount of time. Then there's the NPCs. I may never run a game again-how can I trump my players? Super-Street Samurai? Out of the question, the team would overpower him if he's alone, since his skills....just aren't that much better. Unless I rule every last bastard an adept or a dragon, my super-dramatic Player-Threats are things of the past. I don't want to have to tailor my games so that I cushion my NPCs against an extremely real chance of dying because the Go-Gang boss is just as good a swordsman as Kage the Ninja who's held a blade since the age of two. Kage the Ninja shouldn't have bodyguards at all times, or have to sneak attack every last person he sees. I want an awesome super-cyber-ninja fight on a rooftop dammit, and they've cheapened my thrills by telling me just HOW awesome my super-cyber-ninja can be.
Am I over-reacting a bit? Sure. Should I have written a more coherent post. Probably. But this (for me) is just the tip of the iceberg of issues. I like SR a lot, but this is annoying to me. Sure, make it cost more karma/BP, or what have you, but this to me seems broken. I'll stop ranting now, but I'd like to know if any of that rang true to anyone.
P.S: blakkie: Gothic Rose was asking/complaining about the Talismonger who has a knowledge skill of 8 in the SR4 Contacts section, because of a copy/paste error from the SR3 BBB, or whatever the hell it is.
whats the recomended karma handout pr "adventure" for sr4?
how much does it cost in karma to take a skill from 0 to max?
how much gametime does a avarage "adventure" take?
how much does it cost in karma to take a skill from 0 to max?
how much gametime does a avarage "adventure" take?
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 3 2005, 02:10 PM) |
| Considering that that is insufficient to allow a mundane human to consistently have extraordinary success, it seems pretty obvious that it is indeed insufficient. Unaugmented humans should be able to achieve a dice pool of 20, because that's what you need to buy hits for extraordinary success. Because there really are people who are simply such good chefs/marksmen/orators/goalies/whatever that they get extraordinary success every time unless they are rushed or facing extenuating circumstances. 20 is bare minimum for what norms should be capable of achieving, because the rules tell us that that's the minimum dice pool required to be able to consistently churn out world-class food (which real people really do). -Frank |
Huh? It should let them BUY extraordinary successes under neutral conditions? First off i'm not sure you can buy a true extraordinary successes. I certainly wouldn't, as a GM, let Edge refresh on such a thing. Second, with 16 dice under neutral conditions vs. a Threshhold of 1 (opposed or fixed) they are going to have extraordinary success more often than not. In my eye even the best of the best typically don't have a 100% Midas Touch to create something truely special every time they touch something [simple]. Sure sometimes it might seem like that because often the junk gets hauled away instead of being put into high visibility public display. You know, highlight reels and gallery shows and such.
| QUOTE (FiveVenoms @ Nov 3 2005, 02:18 PM) |
| P.S: blakkie: Gothic Rose was asking/complaining about the Talismonger who has a knowledge skill of 8 in the SR4 Contacts section, because of a copy/paste error from the SR3 BBB, or whatever the hell it is. |
Ok, just that typo. Yes that's just a straight copy-paste of the entire Knowledge Skill text from the page 259. It hardly counts as "breaking" the cap. What it counts as is the Editor paying money into the Beer Jar for missing it.
P.S. Sorry about that Critias, crossed up that since the question was suppose to be to Gothic Rose.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| Taki - I really have no idea what you're trying to say. You seem to be attempting an argumentantive stance (ie, disagreeing with me), but I really genuinely can't pin down your actual logic/examples well enough to make sense of it. You're just sort of rambling about superhuman abilities and skill level 6 being Herculean, or something -- the problem with your (apparent?) stance is that skill level 6 quite simply isn't all that rare and badass, when one stops to look at the PC's and NPC's of the game world, and/or when one stops to do some math with basic TNs and modifiers and the dice required to do anything right. They shouldn't describe a 6 as being the be-all end-all, when every Joe Schmuck in the world has several skills at 4 and 5 just to, statistically, succeed at every day tasks with any regularity. |
I have exposed the rest of my feeling sooner in the thread.
Chargen should be karma based, so much less runner would have such high ranks in skills (because it would cost a lot more).
Critias, you say the caps are too low.
Just tell me how you would describe your personnal best skill in a sr4 model (except for the knowledge skill stupid exemples) ?
I guess you could have one 4 (which is pretty good - look at the contacts who are not simple Joe Schmuck)
Ok, now if I say being that when you will be "one of the best" (6), you will still be able to improves yourself significantly (by one ranks!). How far would that be in real life ???
My point is : I found the caps are good. I think it is too cheap to reach them at creation, and still too cheap (even if stupidly much more expensive) to reach them after creation.
Period.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| P.S. Sorry about that Critias, crossed up that since the question was suppose to be to Gothic Rose. |
And I didn't know that it was a Copy/Paste error until recently.
*shrug* Sloppy.
Wow. I've actually been swayed in my opinion by what people have posted. I think I'll be quietly removing the unaugmented skill cap in my game.
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